What now for the French national team?

[Big Picture]

8 hours ago, David Shepherd said:

Keep going. A yearly fixture against England is a must.  Yes they'll get a shellacking for the foreseeable future, but it doesn't seem to worry Italy in the other version. There are more French lads than ever playing in SL and the championship, they'll improve with time but not if we relegate them to playing second tier nations.

Despite the one sided nature of the game, I thoroughly enjoyed yesterday.  Even if I did end up stood with a couple of Cas fans (luckily my jabs are up to date).

WTF?  Players who play in SL every week won't improve if their national team plays second tier nations once or twice a year rather than stronger nations?

Newsflash: what improves players is playing in tough, intense matches week in and week out, not one or two matches a year which are a big step up from what they're used to.  The former is what lifted the Aussies to being head and shoulders above England, so only the former can ever lift France up to the level of England, even though that's now a long way below the level of Australia, New Zealand and even a bunch of no-account third world countries now.

@Anita Bathif you have any thought that IMG has a solution to this mess, you're deluded.

[Big Picture]

8 hours ago, fighting irish said:

I think we need a NH Trans-Atlantic competition.

We can consider the structure of the competition if anyone wants to enter into a discussion about it but I'd suggest that the winner of said comp. get's to challenge England in a one-off game after the Super League season's end.

The competition would promote the games development in all of the NH nations and as standards rise, the champions games against England will become tighter.

France (and all others) may need to really strive in a competition such as this, to ensure their right to play against England and that will surely sharpen their edge.

This kind of preparation/qualifying tournament is much better than some half-hearted mid-season ''friendly'' fixture.

Coming round to my way of thinking then?

[Big Picture]

4 hours ago, Jughead said:

Where does that take us?

When the clubs in question are in smallish, unfashionable, economically disadvantaged towns in one of the poorest parts of Britain and consequently have NO appeal to the new audiences which the game needs in order to have a future, the answer is simple: nowhere.

3 hours ago, yipyee said:

Your missing the point...

People buy Glastonbury tickets before they even know the performers, they buy horse racing tickets to big events without knowing the runners, they do this because the same events happen every year and people go to the event, not to see a certain entertainer etc... 

This used to happen with the challenge cup final, set event every year at a set time in the calender. Didnt matter who was playing it was a date people stuck in the calender for a day/weekend away.

To an extent you're missing the point too.  No goes to one of those festivals to see a bunch of nobodies, they go because each day of the festival is headlined by a Somebody.  The problem RL has in Britain is a distinct lack of Somebodies to spark greater interest and a I've said on another tread a series against a tiny island country like Tonga is not going to change that.

[Sports Prophet]

16 hours ago, Jughead said:

The RFL need to, just like the French Federation, look in-house at their own garden before watering someone else’s. 

This is like saying the French Save The Whales and UK Save The Whales foundations needs to look after their own waters before thinking of each other’s and wider.

Sure, both have their own issues in house, but, both need to appreciate that as not for profit organisations responsible for the sustainability and growth of the sport in their respective countries, they must also appreciate that the best way forward is as a cooperative.

Meanwhile this requirement to play internationals for internationals sake is frankly ridiculous. The fixture on the weekend was of minimal value to anyone. RFL, FFRXIII, players, fans or anyone. French RL was devalued on the weekend. So was NH Rugby League for that matter.

The club game will pull this sport through in France and Europe, not some vaguely supported, anonymous European Cup and certainly not mid-season internationals that not even 10,000 of the sports biggest fans could be bothered to turn up to watch.

[Sports Prophet]

Who owns the Elite1 clubs @barnyia? Are they privately owned like the SL clubs are?

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, DEANO said:

You’re all deluded. At best rl is big in Australia and New Zealand and some of the islands down under. Reasonably big in the north of England and a minority sport in France. After over a 100 years it’s not going to change. We will always be better than France as will the southern hemisphere be better than us. Wake up and smell the coffee 

Within the constraints you describe there, indeed nothing more can be done than we've seen tried already.  Unfortunately that's not a basis on which the game can flourish or even survive as a pro sport, that requires more.

[Gomersall]

The game in England simply can’t afford to spend money trying to raise standards in France. The money isn’t there and if it was could you imagine the uproar if it was used to shore up France whilst English clubs struggled financially? Having said that I believe we should do all we can within our constraints to help the French but as has already been pointed out the French have to show some commitment too.

[Gomersall]

12 hours ago, Jughead said:

I just don’t get the “just play it in France” line, as if that makes any of this better. It just looks like pushing the problem away and hiding it rather than actually looking at the problem and addressing the issues. 

I don’t see how players of either nation would be more enamoured to play in England v France because it’s in Perpignan and not Warrington. The issue isn’t the venue for the players. I’m not sure either that playing in front of four figures (“Yeah but 14,000 in Avignon”…over ten years ago) in the South of France is any better than pulling 8,000 in Warrington. England needed to be playing yesterday’s fixture in England. It’s about six months since England’s defeat in the World Cup where there were some good crowds for their games and England needed to capitalise on the momentum and have home games this year and having four was the right thing to do in the year immediately following a World Cup. 

As I say, I’m not sure players are going to suddenly turn out for either nation because of the location. The NRL contingent, which is growing again next season, aren’t going to play and I can’t see that it will be a full contingent of Super League players because they get a night out in Canet afterwards. If there’s no change with the amount of Super League games, you’ll see withdrawals again from both camps for what would remain a meaningless game but become a meaningless game in France and not Warrington. 

What income is generated by The RFL by essentially forfeiting a home game that they cannot get right? 

My argument for playing in France is to give the French as many advantages in the game  as we can. I’m not for one minute suggesting this would instantly make France competitive but you’d like to think there’d be a  more committed performance, on and off the pitch, in front of ther own fans.

[gingerjon]

France have 3-4 more matches booked in already for this season.

Italy and Spain at home and Wales away. Followed by, if they beat Wales (presumably it will be between them), a final against the winner of the other European Championship group.

We can argue about some of the details but in terms of a development set-up, two games against opponents you should beat, one or two against opponents that will be a challenge, and one against whom you are overwhelming underdogs, isn't a bad annual fixture list to build from.

[Harry Stottle]

21 hours ago, barnyia said:

A french union player playing 5th or 6th division union earns more than an elite 1 player, so getting scraps from union teams will never happen unless there's money. 

And where is the money going to come from barny? Honest Question.

[Harry Stottle]

21 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

That is one way of looking at it.

The other way of looking at it is how essential having competitive neighbouring opponent/s is to the overall growth of the British game. For that reason, the RFL need to do so much more.

Same question as the post above to Barny, who is going to finance the RFL in doing so much more?

[Gooleboy]

What are Catalans and Toulouse doing to improve their National Team? They always seem to withdraw players from these games.

 

 

 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, Big Picture said:

@Anita Bathif you have any thought that IMG has a solution to this mess, you're deluded

The Canadian sense of humour must be far far different than that of the UK, it was clearly a sarcastic comment from Anita.

[GUBRATS]

10 hours ago, DEANO said:

Yeah let’s invest in France to make them better than us 

Yes , as daft as it seems , that is what we need to try to do , it's like the SL big clubs conundrum , they want more competitive teams , but still to be just a bit better than them 

[JM2010]

Tbh I think the most the RFL can do is arrange a couple of fixtures against England and Wales and have 2 or more French clubs in the league system. The French Federation and the IRL need to do the rest 

[Gomersall]

55 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Same question as the post above to Barny, who is going to finance the RFL in doing so much more?

Unfortunately aitch as everyone knows the game in the NH leads a hand to mouth existence. Once/if any spare revenue eventuates it will soon be absorbed by the English clubs. The only way I could see any money generated for the French by the English is for the England team to basically forego any profit a France v England game might generate and let the French take it all. Basically England playing for expenses only. Obviously that would have to cover any player payments negotiated by the RFL. 

[Oxford]

10 hours ago, The British Lion said:

Haha. Yep, I agree!

Just feel the game, in order to create a better 'Northern Hemisphere' future somehow needs to invest in its neighbours. I.e. France being the first. Australia has the benefit of a broad base of NZ, and Pacific Island players being in the NRL. Its not the same here in GB nearly as much - but, if the game can create player pathways into the highest and lower leagues, then the game as a whole benefits. 

This thread is about France. But, imagine 'if' each SL club was committed and positioned over the next 10 years to:

 - Raising up players from the French....and (here me right - im just dreaming!) Serbian, Welsh, or wherever we feel a country has a genuine footprint for development in the NH. Or maybe each SL team has a 'nation' that they get salary dispensation for, for being in their regular first team squad....development! The you have 10 years down the line something close to competitive development. A genuine NH competition. 

Just a ten year commitment to something out the ordinary!.....I'll continue to just imagine hey.

Essentially it's only what clubs do with things like Welsh connections and African ones so it's hardly a bridge too far.

Of course had we had free movement this would be alot less challenging but that's history and it's all a case of : Are we serious about this, now?

[Gomersall]

4 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Tbh I think the most the RFL can do is arrange a couple of fixtures against England and Wales and have 2 or more French clubs in the league system. The French Federation and the IRL need to do the rest 

Easy to say but the FFRL have even less money than we do and I don’t think the IRL have any or if they do it’s next to nothing.

[Gomersall]

22 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

What are Catalans and Toulouse doing to improve their National Team? They always seem to withdraw players from these games.

 

 

 

They’re too busy making sure they either A. don’t get relegated or B. trying to win promotion.

[barnyia]

5 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Who owns the Elite1 clubs @barnyia? Are they privately owned like the SL clubs are?

They're like amateur clubs in the UK, they survive off hand outs from the town, sponsors and money from the presidents, the grounds are all owned by the local council. Same for training facilities etc, stade Gilbert Brutus is owned by the local council. 

[Jughead]

1 hour ago, gingerjon said:

France have 3-4 more matches booked in already for this season.

Italy and Spain at home and Wales away. Followed by, if they beat Wales (presumably it will be between them), a final against the winner of the other European Championship group.

We can argue about some of the details but in terms of a development set-up, two games against opponents you should beat, one or two against opponents that will be a challenge, and one against whom you are overwhelming underdogs, isn't a bad annual fixture list to build from.

None of this is new though. If you go back over the fifteen years, they’ve had a good mixture of games:

2008 - World Cup (Scotland, Fiji and Samoa. 

2009 - Four Nations (Australia, England, New Zealand) and a friendly with England.

2010 - European Championship and friendly with England. 

2011 - Autumn Series against Ireland and Scotland and a game with England. 

2012 - Autumn Series against England and Wales and a friendly against Wales. 

2013 - World Cup (played against PNG, New Zealand, Samoa and England).

2014 - European Championship. 

2015 - European Cup against Ireland, Scotland and Wales and friendlies against England and Serbia.

2016 - Friendly with England. 

2017 - World Cup (Lebanon, Australia and England). 

2018 - European Championship and friendlies with England and Serbia. 

2019 and 2020 - nothing.

2021 - Friendly with England. 

2022 - World Cup (Greece, England and Samoa). 

Let’s be honest, France have had a reasonable selection of opponents ranging from Tier One nations to Serbia and Greece with tough opponents in Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon and PNG in there too. In that period, France have played England fourteen times and I make it 524 points as the total winning margins across fourteen games, which is an average of 37.42 per game. The closest winning margin was an eighteen point win for England in 2011. 

At what point do they improve? They’ve had fifteen years of reasonable fixtures ranging from very tough to what you’d perceive to be easy against a decent selection of nations, they’ve played England fourteen times in fifteen years and they’ve played in three World Cup’s in that time. Is continually playing them and nothing more going to actually make them any better? Is doing the same thing and expecting different results (not necessarily France winning but narrower margins) not just a really stupid plan?

[barnyia]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

And where is the money going to come from barny? Honest Question.

Honest reply, no idea, 

[Archie Gordon]

12 minutes ago, Jughead said:

None of this is new though. If you go back over the fifteen years, they’ve had a good mixture of games:

2008 - World Cup (Scotland, Fiji and Samoa. 

2009 - Four Nations (Australia, England, New Zealand) and a friendly with England.

2010 - European Championship and friendly with England. 

2011 - Autumn Series against Ireland and Scotland and a game with England. 

2012 - Autumn Series against England and Wales and a friendly against Wales. 

2013 - World Cup (played against PNG, New Zealand, Samoa and England).

2014 - European Championship. 

2015 - European Cup against Ireland, Scotland and Wales and friendlies against England and Serbia.

2016 - Friendly with England. 

2017 - World Cup (Lebanon, Australia and England). 

2018 - European Championship and friendlies with England and Serbia. 

2019 and 2020 - nothing.

2021 - Friendly with England. 

2022 - World Cup (Greece, England and Samoa). 

Let’s be honest, France have had a reasonable selection of opponents ranging from Tier One nations to Serbia and Greece with tough opponents in Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon and PNG in there too. In that period, France have played England fourteen times and I make it 524 points as the total winning margins across fourteen games, which is an average of 37.42 per game. The closest winning margin was an eighteen point win for England in 2011. 

At what point do they improve? They’ve had fifteen years of reasonable fixtures ranging from very tough to what you’d perceive to be easy against a decent selection of nations, they’ve played England fourteen times in fifteen years and they’ve played in three World Cup’s in that time. Is continually playing them and nothing more going to actually make them any better? Is doing the same thing and expecting different results (not necessarily France winning but narrower margins) not just a really stupid plan?

Indeed.

At what point do we accept that France isn't much bothered about international RL.

[Tippytoe]

Let's be honest here we should just be thankful France sent a team at all especially on a bank holiday weekend.

[gingerjon]

14 minutes ago, Jughead said:

None of this is new though. If you go back over the fifteen years, they’ve had a good mixture of games:

2008 - World Cup (Scotland, Fiji and Samoa. 

2009 - Four Nations (Australia, England, New Zealand) and a friendly with England.

2010 - European Championship and friendly with England. 

2011 - Autumn Series against Ireland and Scotland and a game with England. 

2012 - Autumn Series against England and Wales and a friendly against Wales. 

2013 - World Cup (played against PNG, New Zealand, Samoa and England).

2014 - European Championship. 

2015 - European Cup against Ireland, Scotland and Wales and friendlies against England and Serbia.

2016 - Friendly with England. 

2017 - World Cup (Lebanon, Australia and England). 

2018 - European Championship and friendlies with England and Serbia. 

2019 and 2020 - nothing.

2021 - Friendly with England. 

2022 - World Cup (Greece, England and Samoa). 

Let’s be honest, France have had a reasonable selection of opponents ranging from Tier One nations to Serbia and Greece with tough opponents in Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon and PNG in there too. In that period, France have played England fourteen times and I make it 524 points as the total winning margins across fourteen games, which is an average of 37.42 per game. The closest winning margin was an eighteen point win for England in 2011. 

At what point do they improve? They’ve had fifteen years of reasonable fixtures ranging from very tough to what you’d perceive to be easy against a decent selection of nations, they’ve played England fourteen times in fifteen years and they’ve played in three World Cup’s in that time. Is continually playing them and nothing more going to actually make them any better? Is doing the same thing and expecting different results (not necessarily France winning but narrower margins) not just a really stupid plan?

You’ve sort of developed my thoughts there.

France aren’t stagnating through lack of game time against a range of opponents. They’re stagnating because of whatever is going wrong with the FFR XIII pathways and development that lead to the international team.

Yes, there are issues with how the RFL treat Catalans and Toulouse but there are far, far bigger issues with whatever the French themselves are doing or not doing.