What now for the French national team?

[steve oates]

13 minutes ago, theswanmcr said:

The main problem is that, as ever, we can't really decide which path to choose - to really get behind a plan to invest in France or sack it off as a bad job. So instead we play them every now and again with no real planning. I know which I'd prefer but would rather someone at the RFL finally made a call on it.

You're right though that we need to stop players ducking out of internationals... if and when we can be bothered to play them.

The return to Great Britain.v. France in 2007 was stimulated by Les Catalans entry to the Superleague, and Headingley was the venue for a British win in a decent game between the sides. Some years on these fixtures ended up in Leigh on a weekday evening with blow out scores, before being abandoned.

The lesson was nobody could really expect Les Catalans to shoulder the burden of delivering a French International side as well as the task of creating a top class club and team in France..............

And so to the game this last weekend, in which so many professional players either side of the channel as above  probably rightly decided to duck, became a disaster.    This is something we cannot fix, only duck as we have been doing in recent years until now. So I will go with your alternative of sacking this one off. In union the pinacle of the game is in the Internationals, in league it's Superleague.

Except when the World cup comes around........

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

1 hour ago, steve oates said:

How so many "likes" for that 

We have had two French sides in Superleague so what? They will still be heavy with English and antipodean players?

"Two tests" our top players and the SL French lads will still back out of the games.

"Test every autumn" in France, again to what purpose. You seem to think the more France play/get hammered the better they will get?

We need the actual problem of the top players ducking these games sorting out.......

Fine, add “consequences to pulling out of international games” to the list. Sorted. 

I stand by the others. Having had Toulouse in the league for one season is hardly the same thing eh. 

[steve oates]

On 02/05/2023 at 14:10, Leonard said:

12 English sides and 4 French sides.1 more English side than at present and still 1 less overall than the NRL. Putting aside whether France can put out 4 sides, the numbers themselves are perfectly workable within current parameters of English sides and what other leagues manage.

Not "Workable" in any way as Tex Evans says.

With an ever declining SKY TV deal, all that would happen is they would tell us they don't want this, they want English games for English subscribers.  Two more "French" sides is unworkable there aren't the investors, and there isn't the talent and the French TV companies certainly won't pay for losers.....

[steve oates]

9 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Fine, add “consequences to pulling out of international games” to the list. Sorted.  

Are you suggesting a three line whip for players who duck the games? 

Maybe a monetary fine?   Suspension from their next SL game to come up.....

Will they feign injury to be excused? A breakout of groin strains??

I think you'd start a players strike......

[Click]

6 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Not "Workable" in any way as Tex Evans says.

With an ever declining SKY TV deal, all that would happen is they would tell us they don't want this, they want English games for English subscribers.  Two more "French" sides is unworkable there aren't the investors, and there isn't the talent and the French TV companies certainly won't pay for losers.....

Have SKY ever said "We want more English sides for our English subscribers" Or even, "We've given you less TV money because you let a French team in" - Or are those guesses? 

I imagine SKY don't care too much about who the clubs are, as long as they are competitive, add to the league and are giving them good TV games to show.

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Leonard said:

100%.

A 16 team league with, say, 12 England and 4 French, or 11 Heartland and a decent London and 4 French or 13 and 3 would be far more compelling and would bring in a TV deal that would materially dwarf the benefits of a heartland club adding 500 away tickets to a loop fixture.

Pure speculation Leonard, you simply do not know if any of what you say would eventuate.

 

17 hours ago, Leonard said:

The English clubs avoided playing in Europe for years in the 60s, as it was a waste of time.

Look at the CL now. I assume the domestic viewing figures are terrible as the English side generally play non-English opposition?

English people avoided going to Europe in the 60's even on holiday in any numbers there wasn't the money about to do it, there is far far more money to spend today even in these times of austerity, if you are going to make comparisons to suit your argument consider using like for like.

 

[Harry Stottle]

18 hours ago, Eddie said:

How many fans do Wakey or Cas take to LSV then? Surely Leigh aren’t so skint that they have to rely on a couple of hundred extra away fans, and does playing Catalan bring in more home fans than playing Wakey or Cas?  

Didn't happen in '17 or '21 as far as I can remember, and even in the Mullion £ game of '17, of all the people whi Champion Catalan and expressed it would be a travesty if they went down, didn't bother turning up to support them, I recall seeing two young Wigan Lads with strings of onions and black berets on, doing so just to take fiss, no one else in evidence.

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

54 minutes ago, steve oates said:

Are you suggesting a three line whip for players who duck the games? 

Maybe a monetary fine?   Suspension from their next SL game to come up.....

Will they feign injury to be excused? A breakout of groin strains??

I think you'd start a players strike......

Medical by the respective country's medical team. If they pass that, they stay in the squad. If they don't, no issues. If they withdraw or get pulled out regardless, we fine the clubs. 

If they're injured, they're injured. That may well have been the case this weekend, I doubt many rumours otherwise were true. 

[Jughead]

28 minutes ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Medical by the respective country's medical team. If they pass that, they stay in the squad. If they don't, no issues. If they withdraw or get pulled out regardless, we fine the clubs. 

If they're injured, they're injured. That may well have been the case this weekend, I doubt many rumours otherwise were true. 

Yeah, you can’t do that. There’s probably all sorts of legal things in there too. 

[whatmichaelsays]

1 hour ago, Click said:

Have SKY ever said "We want more English sides for our English subscribers" Or even, "We've given you less TV money because you let a French team in"

No, but for some reason, people think there is this huge amount of latent demand for Sky Sports subscriptions, just waiting to be realised when Featherstone gets a place in Super League. 

[theswanmcr]

3 hours ago, steve oates said:

The return to Great Britain.v. France in 2007 was stimulated by Les Catalans entry to the Superleague, and Headingley was the venue for a British win in a decent game between the sides. Some years on these fixtures ended up in Leigh on a weekday evening with blow out scores, before being abandoned.

The lesson was nobody could really expect Les Catalans to shoulder the burden of delivering a French International side as well as the task of creating a top class club and team in France..............

And so to the game this last weekend, in which so many professional players either side of the channel as above  probably rightly decided to duck, became a disaster.    This is something we cannot fix, only duck as we have been doing in recent years until now. So I will go with your alternative of sacking this one off. In union the pinacle of the game is in the Internationals, in league it's Superleague.

Except when the World cup comes around........

The fact that we started in 2007 with a competitive game with the boost of Catalans entry to SL shows exactly what happens when you back something properly. The fact we ended up with weekday games and hammerings a few years later shows exactly what happens when you don't build on that and let things wither.

Other than the fact that Leigh should not be holding internationals then we will agree to disagree on those learnings 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, steve oates said:

Not "Workable" in any way as Tex Evans says.

With an ever declining SKY TV deal, all that would happen is they would tell us they don't want this, they want English games for English subscribers.  Two more "French" sides is unworkable there aren't the investors, and there isn't the talent and the French TV companies certainly won't pay for losers.....

You mean like the Heineken Cup and Champions League?

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

Pure speculation Leonard, you simply do not know if any of what you say would eventuate.

 

English people avoided going to Europe in the 60's even on holiday in any numbers there wasn't the money about to do it, there is far far more money to spend today even in these times of austerity, if you are going to make comparisons to suit your argument consider using like for like.

 

Well, we have the counterfactual don't we. A collapse in TV revenues. It just seems to work in nearly all other sports where international competition adds something to the sport.

Not sure what relevance holidays in the 60s is to whether Wolves or the like didn't bother playing in the proto European Cup. The home nations also ducked the first couple of world cups due to myopia as well.

 

[eal]

The game in France has fallen away so much it is hard to know where to start. I really fear the next World Cup in France is either not going to happen or will be a disaster.

Two Super League sides will help, but a professional domestic competition underneath that will help more.

Developing the game in New Caledonia and Wallis and Futuna and getting those guys into the Australian system might also help. Although we would run into issues of French-qualified players down under never being available for international duty due to Australian indifference.

It is a hard proposition and I don't think anyone really has the answers, particularly if a French billionaire who loves RL doesn't show up.

[Madrileño]

3 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Fine, add “consequences to pulling out of international games” to the list. Sorted. 

An utterly nonsensical non-starter

#deluded

[Jughead]

The French back office has been a shambles for a decade, probably closer to two, maybe even three. Looking at Catalans and Toulouse to drag them upwards from an entrenched malaise is the wrong approach. A root and branch review is much needed. 

At junior level, France are competing and, in some cases, beating England in Academy age games. Now, I don’t believe that they reach a certain age and get Space Jammed and become rubbish players. What happens between the ages of 16-19? Do players fall away and play Union? Do they leave the sport to study? Do they continue with the sport and aren’t getting the right opportunities in the years between say 19-22? Do they continue with the sport and aren’t progressing beyond the Elite 1 sides of the two professional clubs? With the Academy level sides, are they playing regularly? Are they playing Australia and New Zealand? If not, why aren’t they? What does that cost? Is there centres of excellence or elite training squads that meet regularly whether regionally or nationally? 

What’s junior coaching like? What are the numbers? What is the quality of those numbers? What is the general philosophies of coaches, is it win at all costs or are they attempting to nurture talent? How many coaching clinics are there? What is the pathway for coaching like, can people move through stages easily and effectively?

Looking at Elite 1 and the French open age game now, what’s the point of that? Do teams have pathways in place to bring through young players? What’s the numbers like at open age level, why do players leave the sport and where do those who leave go? Union? Give up altogether? Is Elite 1 playing in winter doing any good for anyone or should their season be more aligned to be brought into line with the world game playing between February and October? 

If France want a good national side it starts with them not being left for Catalans and Toulouse to do. The talk of a full-time Elite 1 is, frankly, pie in the sky nonsense if it’s underpinned by waste paper as its foundations. Any monies generated from a World Cup should go absolutely nowhere near washed up Australians having one last year of a European jaunt before returning home to get a proper job. The Corey Norman’s, Jason Clark’s and James Maloney’s of the next ten years shouldn’t be given full-time deals to play at Limoux, Lezignan or wherever. A failure to invest in a proper strategy for the sport, just like The RFL, is what’s holding them back not ludicrous accusations about Catalans or Toulouse. 

[Hull Kingston Bronco]

2 hours ago, Madrileño said:

An utterly nonsensical non-starter

#deluded

Thanks for stopping by 

#troll 

[Madrileño]

7 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:

Medical by the respective country's medical team. If they pass that, they stay in the squad. If they don't, no issues. If they withdraw or get pulled out regardless, we fine the clubs. 

If they're injured, they're injured. That may well have been the case this weekend, I doubt many rumours otherwise were true. 

This is truly the stuff of fantasy.

What if the player just doesn't want to play?

How much do England pay per game?

What if a top player from the NRL/Wigan/Saints (for example) has no interest in travelling to turn out for England in a meaningless friendly because he has bigger fish to fry in the coming months, and has no wish to risk injury for a few hundred quid or whatever England pays??

This is absolutely NEVER going to happen. Total, deluded, fantasy, nonsense.

[Tex Evans Thigh]

On 02/05/2023 at 10:23, Leonard said:

I wasn't suggesting there were - I was just replying to Tex's comment that more French teams must be a downer for English sides. You can have more French and English sides as well.

Both could co-exist and I also think it would get a better TV deal if if developed that way. It is not coincidence the retreat to 12 sides and the inclusion of loop fixtures led to a massive cut in the TV deal imho.

There's barely enough money to pay for 12 teams to be full time, where is the extra money for the 3 additional French clubs and the additional English club coming from? The French TV deal? Put aside whether there are French teams able to step up, there probably are along with a number of English clubs, but they all need TV money. Just like pretty much all current SL clubs do to maintain a FT operation.

Even after all that and you got 4 French teams in SL, the national team would still be garbage as they just dont produce world class players. You'd get a few more Bousquets and Yahas but this thread would be around again and people would be taking about 8 teams in SL.

Having 1 or 2 French teams adds some variety and interest to the league but it's never going to bridge the gap at international level, which is what this thread is about.

[barnyia]

12 hours ago, Jughead said:

The French back office has been a shambles for a decade, probably closer to two, maybe even three. Looking at Catalans and Toulouse to drag them upwards from an entrenched malaise is the wrong approach. A root and branch review is much needed. 

At junior level, France are competing and, in some cases, beating England in Academy age games. Now, I don’t believe that they reach a certain age and get Space Jammed and become rubbish players. What happens between the ages of 16-19? Do players fall away and play Union? Do they leave the sport to study? Do they continue with the sport and aren’t getting the right opportunities in the years between say 19-22? Do they continue with the sport and aren’t progressing beyond the Elite 1 sides of the two professional clubs? With the Academy level sides, are they playing regularly? Are they playing Australia and New Zealand? If not, why aren’t they? What does that cost? Is there centres of excellence or elite training squads that meet regularly whether regionally or nationally? 

What’s junior coaching like? What are the numbers? What is the quality of those numbers? What is the general philosophies of coaches, is it win at all costs or are they attempting to nurture talent? How many coaching clinics are there? What is the pathway for coaching like, can people move through stages easily and effectively?

Looking at Elite 1 and the French open age game now, what’s the point of that? Do teams have pathways in place to bring through young players? What’s the numbers like at open age level, why do players leave the sport and where do those who leave go? Union? Give up altogether? Is Elite 1 playing in winter doing any good for anyone or should their season be more aligned to be brought into line with the world game playing between February and October? 

If France want a good national side it starts with them not being left for Catalans and Toulouse to do. The talk of a full-time Elite 1 is, frankly, pie in the sky nonsense if it’s underpinned by waste paper as its foundations. Any monies generated from a World Cup should go absolutely nowhere near washed up Australians having one last year of a European jaunt before returning home to get a proper job. The Corey Norman’s, Jason Clark’s and James Maloney’s of the next ten years shouldn’t be given full-time deals to play at Limoux, Lezignan or wherever. A failure to invest in a proper strategy for the sport, just like The RFL, is what’s holding them back not ludicrous accusations about Catalans or Toulouse. 

I've coached all age groups over here from u5s to elite u19s, 3rd and 4th division adults and elite 1 adults. The coaching is good considering the small number of coaches, luckily they have a thing called the pole espoirs/pôle France in Avignon, Toulouse and Carcassonne,

They choose the better players for the last 3 years of school (15 to 18 years old) who want to go there to study and train 

They train all week with the pole with excellent coaches, 3 or 4 field sessions and a couple of weight sessions per week, at the weekend they play for their respective clubs, this set up almost allows the kids to train like a pro. 

After this they're just let go into life and u19s club rugby, so back to 2 sessions a week or 3 if they are at an elite club,  they get good coaching at club level but they don't improve as much as they did at the pole. 

Work, university takes over and quite a few stop playing or just stay playing with their mates. 

players that stay or transfer to the xiii Catalan u19s stop the pole , xiii catalan stop their  players being part of the pole after the second year as they can't be at the Catalan  club training during the week. They train 4 times a week at xiii catalan u19s. But at the Catalans  you have to make a choice, leave home, change your school, sometimes change what your studying so you can fit studies around training, if you want a job it's not possible if you play at the Catalan 19s unless the hours suit the club.

Toulouse have a centre of excellence for over 18s which includes studying and rugby during the day, I'm not sure how many players they have in this set up. 

As for playing numbers, there's around 16/17 under 15 teams in France, around 14/15 u17s and u19s teams, 

For the adults there's 10 elite 1 teams, 9 elite 2,

Around 12 dn1/3rd division teams and at most 20 fourth division teams, 

Teams like Lézignan, limoux, Albi, catalan and Carcassonne have teams in all these categories, so the number of teams doesn't mean the number of clubs in France. 

This is for the whole of France, 

 

Edited May 4, 2023 by barnyia

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Tex Evans Thigh said:

There's barely enough money to pay for 12 teams to be full time, where is the extra money for the 3 additional French clubs and the additional English club coming from? The French TV deal? Put aside whether there are French teams able to step up, there probably are along with a number of English clubs, but they all need TV money. Just like pretty much all current SL clubs do to maintain a FT operation.

Even after all that and you got 4 French teams in SL, the national team would still be garbage as they just dont produce world class players. You'd get a few more Bousquets and Yahas but this thread would be around again and people would be taking about 8 teams in SL.

Having 1 or 2 French teams adds some variety and interest to the league but it's never going to bridge the gap at international level, which is what this thread is about.

How to deliberately misread posts so you can plough headlong with the same point you will just make whatever is said.

Enjoy the rest of your day.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Leonard

[Harry Stottle]

All joking aside and some hard facts thrown in, Englands and the RFL's major concern should be the preparation for the next WC, having the Tongan team coming to these shores for a 3 match series this year is great news but that should be followed up next season with another invitation for a high profile SH country or a tour down under, the momentum needs to be maintained, with the full squad members - our NRL player's included.

Sorry but France can not offer the preperation we require going into a  WC tournament, Mr Wane refused a game against France last season and I see no reason why he would change that strategy, '25 is going to be difficult no SH teams will come here nor will we go down there for mid season games, the only alternative is an 'exiles' game who can provide better and more meaningful opposition than France can, but we have to pencil it in immediately build it up and make it worthwhile for the player's taking part.

We have so few opportunities to play international fixtures and in my opinion they should be against the better teams, for all those who say France will improve the more they play England, is it not also the case that England will improve in sterner and harder conditions against quality opponents than in games akin to opposed training sessions.

What should be more important to the RFL, the International coaches, the player's and not least the fans, success on the biggest RL stage there is preparing properly or spending the little preperation time we have not utilising to our best advantage?

[Davo5]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

All joking aside and some hard facts thrown in, Englands and the RFL's major concern should be the preparation for the next WC, having the Tongan team coming to these shores for a 3 match series this year is great news but that should be followed up next season with another invitation for a high profile SH country or a tour down under, the momentum needs to be maintained, with the full squad members - our NRL player's included.

Sorry but France can not offer the preperation we require going into a  WC tournament, Mr Wane refused a game against France last season and I see no reason why he would change that strategy, '25 is going to be difficult no SH teams will come here nor will we go down there for mid season games, the only alternative is an 'exiles' game who can provide better and more meaningful opposition than France can, but we have to pencil it in immediately build it up and make it worthwhile for the player's taking part.

We have so few opportunities to play international fixtures and in my opinion they should be against the better teams, for all those who say France will improve the more they play England, is it not also the case that England will improve in sterner and harder conditions against quality opponents than in games akin to opposed training sessions.

What should be more important to the RFL, the International coaches, the player's and not least the fans, success on the biggest RL stage there is preparing properly or spending the little preperation time we have not utilising to our best advantage?

But you can have both,France mid season,preferably in France & a Southern Hemisphere side/tour at the end of the season IF one will come or want to host us.

[Oxford]

19 hours ago, steve oates said:

So I will go with your alternative of sacking this one off. In union the pinacle of the game is in the Internationals, in league it's Superleague.

Then it's no good complaining we're a small sport because like it or not that's a small sport's outlook.

Sadly just as evident in the NRL.

It is also why vichy looks stronger, more professional and more attractive irrespective of the truth behind those things.

 

[Harry Stottle]

On 02/05/2023 at 15:23, Leonard said:

It is not coincidence the retreat to 12 sides and the inclusion of loop fixtures led to a massive cut in the TV deal imho.

You are aware are you that SL reduced from 14 teams to 12 teams for the 2015 season, and in 2017 received the biggest TV deal we have ever had being £200M for 5 years.

Yes it did go down to £25M per season at the end of that term, but I suspect that Sky selling out to the American company Comcast Corp and them changing their scheduling and offer somewhat with more dedicated Channels went a way to that reduction, and I suspect it may drop even further in the next round of negotiations.