England vs Samoa Series

[Dave T]

Just now, redjonn said:

I agree with what you have said on this thread, but do wonder what sort of stadium event improvements would make that much difference.

For me it starts with the buzz i have before getting anywhere near the game. The buzz of getting a ticket, the buzz of looking forward to the game all week, the buzz of travelling to the game... once at the stadium it would be the icing on the buzz cake.

I mean when I'm to a RU international I have all those buzz aspects even though I know I probably won't think much of the game nor the stadium experience, especially as most of the game I'd be up and down off me seat to let people past as they go the bar and come back.

I think these things will be different for.different demographics, but I think one of the biggest feelings around international RL for me is lack of effort. Even if the choice of entertainment or whatever isn't to my taste, I can appreciate effort.

Just opening a stadium and putting two teams on the field isn't what others tend to do.

[Dave T]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

I totally agree the mates rates thing is obvious now, and clearly the sport really is strapped for cash.

I've always been of the opinion that the likes of Wales and France should either be played in those countries in the first instance, or failing that in non-heartland venues in England. The likes of London or Bristol come to mind. It would need to be brave, but it's not unheard of levels either.

TBH, even tapping into the mates rate thing, Wimbledon seems a perfectly nice ground for a France game instead of Warrington or as pre-match entertainment for a Featherstone match.

[RigbyLuger]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

For me, and I know some roll their eyes when we talk about entertainment and fanzones, but these are crucial at the moment.

We have to do it properly though, and not just the Rugby AM Roadshow AGAIN. If anything plays up to a stereotype of League fans, it's them and their "act."

[Dave T]

Just now, RigbyLuger said:

We have to do it properly though, and not just the Rugby AM Roadshow AGAIN. If anything plays up to a stereotype of League fans, it's them and their "act."

Yep. The fanzone at the Olympic Stadium for that first visit was one of the worst RL experiences I've ever had. 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Dave T said:

TBH, even tapping into the mates rate thing, Wimbledon seems a perfectly nice ground for a France game instead of Warrington or as pre-match entertainment for a Featherstone match.

Absolutely, it's got to be smarter than what we have been doing.

[north yorks trinity]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think there is a huge issue with RFL events in that they aren't really good events. The sport is great, we know that, but they often lack atmosphere, catering is average, facilities not always world class (Headingly is great but is it world class?), no entertainment etc. 

I think Headingley is a great rugby league ground which can deliver a great atmosphere with a smaller crowd than is needed for the same effect at most other grounds. Not everything has to be "world class" or we are just setting ourselves up to be disappointed! That said, the atmosphere was a little more muted than I'd hoped for on Saturday. Could it have been made into more of an event at a realistic price? Not my area of expertise but I suspect so.

Regarding whether to play internationals in the saturated market of West Yorkshire/historic Lancashire or elsewhere, I'd say definitely both. London should always get a test as it reliably delivers crowds better than the "heartlands". Then the question is how ambitious a stadium to pick in London, but it can generally be relied on to outperform Wigan/Leeds/Hull. Another advantage of taking a test to London would be to increase the scarcity, and therefore hopefully desirability, of tests in the "heartlands", as I think it is vital that at least one test per series is played there too.

[Tommygilf]

Two more things, I liked the massive cardboard cut outs of the faces in the crowd. It was fun. Fun is good.

Another thought that came to mind, and is worth being considered again, is that the opposition are almost always not going to be very well known. Luai was the most well known I'd argue of the Samoa team, but even he for most English RL fans is probably not a household level name. The NRL is big, but it is also a bit niche, even amongst RL anoraks. 

Luai's clearly brilliant and was a joy to watch, but him alone isn't enough. I'd hesitate to also suggest this applies to the Kangaroos too, especially now the era of Thurston, Cronk, Slater and Inglis is an almost distant memory. The players are expected to be good, but that's about all most people know...

[DoubleD]

Hard to see how the RFL will not have racked up another financial loss on this series 

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, DoubleD said:

Hard to see how the RFL will not have racked up another financial loss on this series 

Cheap (relatively) venue hire, 2 weeks as opposed to 3, higher crowds per match than vs Tonga, a suite of sponsors on board.

I doubt the FT will be writing about it but I don't see it being a fiscal disaster either. It's probably just a relatively, very modest profit.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, north yorks trinity said:

I think Headingley is a great rugby league ground which can deliver a great atmosphere with a smaller crowd than is needed for the same effect at most other grounds. Not everything has to be "world class" or we are just setting ourselves up to be disappointed! That said, the atmosphere was a little more muted than I'd hoped for on Saturday. Could it have been made into more of an event at a realistic price? Not my area of expertise but I suspect so.

Regarding whether to play internationals in the saturated market of West Yorkshire/historic Lancashire or elsewhere, I'd say definitely both. London should always get a test as it reliably delivers crowds better than the "heartlands". Then the question is how ambitious a stadium to pick in London, but it can generally be relied on to outperform Wigan/Leeds/Hull. Another advantage of taking a test to London would be to increase the scarcity, and therefore hopefully desirability, of tests in the "heartlands", as I think it is vital that at least one test per series is played there too.

Why shouldn't everything be World class? England Autumn internationals should be the pinnacle.

Headingly is a great Rugby ground. But if I'm honest, I think all seatered modern facilities are the minimum for these games. I think Elland Rd is fine as a compromise for some games.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Cheap (relatively) venue hire, 2 weeks as opposed to 3, higher crowds per match than vs Tonga, a suite of sponsors on board.

I doubt the FT will be writing about it but I don't see it being a fiscal disaster either. It's probably just a relatively, very modest profit.

I agree. I expect it was in line with expectations on a crowd front. 

[Bedfordshire Bronco]

31 minutes ago, north yorks trinity said:

I think Headingley is a great rugby league ground which can deliver a great atmosphere with a smaller crowd than is needed for the same effect at most other grounds. Not everything has to be "world class" or we are just setting ourselves up to be disappointed! That said, the atmosphere was a little more muted than I'd hoped for on Saturday. Could it have been made into more of an event at a realistic price? Not my area of expertise but I suspect so.

Regarding whether to play internationals in the saturated market of West Yorkshire/historic Lancashire or elsewhere, I'd say definitely both. London should always get a test as it reliably delivers crowds better than the "heartlands". Then the question is how ambitious a stadium to pick in London, but it can generally be relied on to outperform Wigan/Leeds/Hull. Another advantage of taking a test to London would be to increase the scarcity, and therefore hopefully desirability, of tests in the "heartlands", as I think it is vital that at least one test per series is played there too.

Headingly was pretty good on Saturday 

Nice atmosphere and busy enough....the crowd was noisier in real life than it came across on telly 

Overall enjoyed it more than the Tonga games I went to

[north yorks trinity]

6 hours ago, Dave T said:

Why shouldn't everything be World class? England Autumn internationals should be the pinnacle.

Headingly is a great Rugby ground. But if I'm honest, I think all seatered modern facilities are the minimum for these games. I think Elland Rd is fine as a compromise for some games.

You suggest everything should be world class but then mention Elland Road!!!

In seriousness I accept part of your second point in that all seater stadiums are great in many ways and deliver a brilliant atmosphere when full and we should always aim to fill the grounds we use for internationals (or, at least fill all sides to a fair depth back such as the lower 2 tiers at Wembley for example).

However, two counter points: Firstly, all seater stadiums are less good at hiding gaps. This isn't just relevant to seat counting anoraks; it can make a significant difference to atmosphere at the ground and perception on TV. Secondly, as a sport we appear to have great difficulty actually selling out anything. There were announcements last week that no seats were available for Leeds yet there were significantly visible areas of empty seating. I realise that selling through multiple outlets complicates things but I don't see other sports' sold out events struggling to appear full.

Edited November 4, 2024 by north yorks trinity
Written seats instead of tickets in last paragraph

[north yorks trinity]

6 minutes ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Headingly was pretty good on Saturday 

Nice atmosphere and busy enough....the crowd was noisier in real life than it came across on telly 

Overall enjoyed it more than the Tonga games I went to

I was there too and thoroughly enjoyed it. No real complaints about the atmosphere but wasn't exactly buzzing. I can guarantee it will be against Australia though, wherever we play, at least the first two matches and hopefully also the third game if we've won at least one of the others.

[DoubleD]

57 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Cheap (relatively) venue hire, 2 weeks as opposed to 3, higher crowds per match than vs Tonga, a suite of sponsors on board.

I doubt the FT will be writing about it but I don't see it being a fiscal disaster either. It's probably just a relatively, very modest profit.

Doubt it. Tickets given away or at very low prices, sponsors last minute which would be token amounts (there wasn’t even a joint formal announcement). The ABK one is just an extension of SL. I expect the RFL budgeted on higher attendances

[Dave T]

54 minutes ago, north yorks trinity said:

You suggest everything should be world class but then mention Elland Road!!!

In seriousness I accept part of your second point in that all seater stadiums are great in many ways and deliver a brilliant atmosphere when full and we should always aim to fill the grounds we use for internationals (or, at least fill all sides to a fair depth back such as the lower 2 tiers at Wembley for example).

However, two counter points: Firstly, all seater stadiums are less good at hiding gaps. This isn't just relevant to seat counting anoraks; it can make a significant difference to atmosphere at the ground and perception on TV. Secondly, as a sport we appear to have great difficulty actually selling out anything. There were announcements last week that no tickets were available for Leeds yet there were significantly visible areas of empty seating. I realise that selling through multiple outlets complicates things but I don't see other sports' sold out events struggling to appear full.

I think world class is obviously ambiguous and can mean different things - so I am happy to concede that it doesn't have to mean all seater, or the very best grounds in the world, but I do think it is a 'feel' of the event. 

Have the internationals that we've staged in the UK over the last 3 years felt genuine top quality events? I'm not sure we can answer that as a resounding yes.

Even if we accept that stadium criteria is heavily opinion based and a case can be made for more 'rustic' grounds for England games, shall we say, I think that even at Wigan and Leeds they need to be top quality events. They just aren't anything to write home about. 

I suppose the 2013 World Cup is a great example. We played in some really average facilities, but there was effort and the events felt like real events. I haven't really experienced anything like that tournament since I don't think. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Headingly was pretty good on Saturday 

Nice atmosphere and busy enough....the crowd was noisier in real life than it came across on telly 

Overall enjoyed it more than the Tonga games I went to

What was better about this weekend versus the Tonga game at the same venue last year? (assuming you went to both).

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, DoubleD said:

Hard to see how the RFL will not have racked up another financial loss on this series 

If we are losing money on internationals, then I'd suggest we really do need to be looking at the TV rights model for these. We've been insistent on being on the BBC to get eyeballs, but are we getting the knock on benefits from that, because the commercial income doesn't appear to be strong on that. 

When internationals were on Sky we did used to have highlights on BBC the next day, and I do wonder whether we should be testing the water to see if anyone is prepared to pay for England internationals.

[JonM]

1 hour ago, Bedfordshire Bronco said:

Overall enjoyed it more than the Tonga games I went to

Yes, atmosphere at both games was a real step-up from the Tonga games which were very flat.

[Barley Mow]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What was better about this weekend versus the Tonga game at the same venue last year? (assuming you went to both).

Having been to both the Tonga and Samoa Tests at Headingley in the last year, I agree that Saturday was marginally better - slightly larger crowd, slightly better opposition, slightly better atmosphere. But there wasn't a lot in it.

[Dave T]

So if we look at the series versus last year, focusing on the top 2 matches. 

2023 - total of 28,375 (Saints and Leeds)

2024 - total of 31,205 (Wigan and Leeds)

Considering we removed one game, created an element of scarcity and clashes in West Yorkshire, and the fact that we were one year on playing a team with some recent history, I think delivering a 10% uplift is disappointing.

I often make the point that in RL we just don't deliver growth - and this is an example of that. The best example is Magic Weekend. This was a brand new concept back in 2007 and we got 59k. It was pretty popular and is something we've stuck with, but 17 years later we got a crowd that was lower than year one, and our peak during those 17 years was only 16% higher than the opener. 

We saw the same with Roses, Exiles, England mid-season games. 

Last year we got 14k average at Saints and Leeds - this year we really should have been looking how we drive serious growth to c20k per match. Not just more of the same. 

I refuse to believe that when we do something new we just get the crowd we will always get. Others grow things - we just seem to meander on.

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

Cheap (relatively) venue hire, 2 weeks as opposed to 3, higher crowds per match than vs Tonga, a suite of sponsors on board.

I doubt the FT will be writing about it but I don't see it being a fiscal disaster either. It's probably just a relatively, very modest profit.

I agree, it is still more than possible to make a profit on crowds like this for a short tour.

[Worzel]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

I agree, it is still more than possible to make a profit on crowds like this for a short tour.

Especially given that the NRL (well, the IRL, but it's one and the same thing these days) apparently chipped in and paid the Samoan team to go when they didn't want to (because the Pacific Cup is more lucrative, with less travel costs)

[north yorks trinity]

33 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Having been to both the Tonga and Samoa Tests at Headingley in the last year, I agree that Saturday was marginally better - slightly larger crowd, slightly better opposition, slightly better atmosphere. But there wasn't a lot in it.

Possibly the main difference in making this year a little better is that the series was still to be decided.

[RigbyLuger]

Did the England team do any stuff in the community last week, as opposed to the week before in Wigan?