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England vs Samoa Series


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5 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

I have some sympathy but that is limited somewhat by how the former leadership of the RFL acquiesced to it in return for their GB Tours nostalgia fest. 

Agreed that the failure to make the scraps work has made a poor situation even worse!

I don't think that's right, but we had this conversation earlier in the week I think. The plan when 4n was scrapped was a 6/8 nation fed cup and a World Cup with normal tours/tests in between. They were shafted. 

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5 hours ago, Damien said:

What has happened in Europe on meagre resources has generally been okay. The likes of Serbia, Greece etc have done well in building and progressing the game. I think we can have a thriving European scene in its own right, and do to some extent  The trouble for RL is that that level is a world away from even France, which is a world away from England. I honestly don't see how these gaps are breached without major amounts of money over many years.

The likes of Ireland and Scotland are a sham, proven by their recent demotion by the IRL. Frankly they don't deserve to even be in discussions about England until they actually try and grow and develop the game on those countries. I have far more time for those other European nations.

I was gonna come back to my post to clarify further thoughts that the problem is that there was no development of these hollow teams. I agree with you, sham is a good word. 

But I think this is why it's important that we have an effective IRL. France and other Euro nations shouldbt be dependent on whether the RFL want to make an effort, in a similar way that Samoa can't be wholly dependent on the NRL. 

 

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6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's fine to look at the same evidence and come to different conclusions but my view is that you are adding an awful lot of caveats to portray the evidence negatively. To only recognise the QPR one is baffling to me. I also find it baffling that you would look to discount matches because they were the first or second test. 

But I'll say it again, when making it like for like, London has done better (literally except the one game at QPR). Strip out world cups and look at 3 test series, and London has been the best of the three. 

But, I expect we will have to agree to disagree, which is cool. 

I may be coming across as negative, but I am not trying to be.

All I am really doing is expressing caution that London will be some kind of panacea for the international game and all we have to do is take a game there, against any opposition and in any competition, and it will do well.

I would be delighted if we sold big numbers in big stadiums for tests against Tonga, Fiji, Samoa etc.  Of course I would be.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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57 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I may be coming across as negative, but I am not trying to be.

All I am really doing is expressing caution that London will be some kind of panacea for the international game and all we have to do is take a game there, against any opposition and in any competition, and it will do well.

I would be delighted if we sold big numbers in big stadiums for tests against Tonga, Fiji, Samoa etc.  Of course I would be.

Aye, all good, I can understand why you'd come to the conclusions you do, even if I disagree. I certainly don't think London is any kind of silver bullet, my simple view here is that I think we'd get a better crowd. 

I'm hardly enthused by the series this year, but I'll probably try and make it to Leeds if things line up. 

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The opportunities that a game in London presents are manifold. Primarily, it's an opportunity to promote the hell out of the event to a wide audience that is not tainted by the true fans antipathy towards the RFL and all it's works.

A potential and cosmopoliton audience who we can market to , purely on the merits of the game and nothing else.

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33 minutes ago, JohnM said:

The opportunities that a game in London presents are manifold. Primarily, it's an opportunity to promote the hell out of the event to a wide audience that is not tainted by the true fans antipathy towards the RFL and all it's works.

A potential and cosmopoliton audience who we can market to , purely on the merits of the game and nothing else.

That would be great.  And successful international Rugby League should be our key goal.

And as someone who wants to be positive about our sport I do fear I have come across as a bit of curmudgeon on this thread.

If we had a 3 test series, one was in London and we had a bumper crowd, nothing would make me happier.

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"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

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9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

That is an accurate description for Samoa, especially one you would expect from an uninitiated Londoner.

The language one uses is very telling when they discuss people and places. 

"Backwater" isn't a term I think I have heard in London in many years, and "uninitiated" - What rubbish are you going on about. 

Didn't realise "Samoa is a backwater country" was a club.

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On 16/06/2024 at 12:56, Hopie said:

Some weird arguments about the accents you hear at games? No thanks.

 

Anyway, I was looking at rugby league project and given how rarely England have played Samoa, it could very well be the best average attendance for a rugby league fixture in history. Four games, three 40k+ attendances.

Nothing "weird" about it. It's a highly relevant discussion in terms of where potential interest in the sport lies, and hence how and where best to pitch it, albeit somewhat unscientific in how folk on here can analyse it i.e. no actual survey results or such like on where attendees at London games live. Nevertheless, the points about many southern accents being heard at internationals in London absolutely are important. Good luck with getting an average attendance of 40k plus at the chosen venues for the forthcoming series lol

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3 hours ago, Click said:

The language one uses is very telling when they discuss people and places. 

"Backwater" isn't a term I think I have heard in London in many years, and "uninitiated" - What rubbish are you going on about. 

Didn't realise "Samoa is a backwater country" was a club.

I don’t really know what you are bringing up here, but “Backwater” is a bog standard English word/phrase. There is nothing disparaging, damning or insulting about it.

As is “uninitiated”, which would be a very good description of most Londoners in relation to Rugby League.

As for your third paragraph, pardon me, I just don’t understand what you mean by “was a club” or what the relevance of any such “club” has.

I hazard a guess there is more insinuation here that I am being racist or insulting, which I am not. This is the last time I will be wasting time defending myself from any suggestions to the contrary.

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I don’t really know what you are bringing up here, but “Backwater” is a bog standard English word/phrase. There is nothing disparaging, damning or insulting about it.

It is a bog standard phrase, but it is also disparaging. If you didn't intend it to be so then maybe you need to look up what it means.

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19 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

It is a bog standard phrase, but it is also disparaging. If you didn't intend it to be so then maybe you need to look up what it means.

  1. a part of a river not reached by the current, where the water is stagnant.
    "the eels inhabit backwaters"
    • an isolated or peaceful place.
      "nothing spoils the tranquillity of this quiet backwater"
    • a place or situation in which no development or progress is taking place.
      "the country remained an economic backwater"
       
      None of this is disparaging.
       
      what do you think it means? Enlighten me, what is derogatory?
       
      Or maybe PM me instead, to avoid a public post sending a well discussed thread closer to being unnecessarily locked.
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So what England home matches are we hoping for for next year and 2026.

With England in the southern hemisphere in both autumns, and no chance of any southern hemisphere teams travelling north in our summer, presumably we're left with only France.

How many games should we play against them?

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11 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

So what England home matches are we hoping for for next year and 2026.

With England in the southern hemisphere in both autumns, and no chance of any southern hemisphere teams travelling north in our summer, presumably we're left with only France.

How many games should we play against them?

Tri-Nations

England v Wales at LSV on a Tue Night
Wales V France at Whitehaven as won't be able to find a venue in wales

France v England as a warm up game to a Elite 1 match (maybe at Avigon before a Avigon v's Pia match)

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11 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

So what England home matches are we hoping for for next year and 2026.

With England in the southern hemisphere in both autumns, and no chance of any southern hemisphere teams travelling north in our summer, presumably we're left with only France.

How many games should we play against them?

 

Scenario 1: France beat England next week or lose by 18 or less. Keep playing France mid season but market it properly.

 

Scenario 2: England beat France by 18+ points. Scrap mid season internationals and use the money to invest a development pathway from Elite 1 into the British game to raise the standards of the French side.

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14 hours ago, 17 stone giant said:

So what England home matches are we hoping for for next year and 2026.

With England in the southern hemisphere in both autumns, and no chance of any southern hemisphere teams travelling north in our summer, presumably we're left with only France.

How many games should we play against them?

I expect just the one summer fixture each year v France, as the SL clubs won't want more than that. Likely a fair chance we will play someone else this autumn as a warm up game for the Samoa matches, Wales at a NW venue possibly.

The main purpose (from an England perspective) of the mid season international window is for Wane to bring his squad together without club distractions, ensure players get to know each other better, and play a match which is effectively a very decent training session, I think it works ok for that.

In autumn 2025 there will probably be a warm up game v a local rep team in Australia before the first test. 

All 2023 to mid-2025 England games, including the Tonga / Samoa tours, are primarily about building a post-2022RLWC squad for 2025 and 2026 when the main target competitions take place.

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24 minutes ago, Whippet13 said:

I expect just the one summer fixture each year v France, as the SL clubs won't want more than that. Likely a fair chance we will play someone else this autumn as a warm up game for the Samoa matches, Wales at a NW venue possibly.

The main purpose (from an England perspective) of the mid season international window is for Wane to bring his squad together without club distractions, ensure players get to know each other better, and play a match which is effectively a very decent training session, I think it works ok for that.

In autumn 2025 there will probably be a warm up game v a local rep team in Australia before the first test. 

All 2023 to mid-2025 England games, including the Tonga / Samoa tours, are primarily about building a post-2022RLWC squad for 2025 and 2026 when the main target competitions take place.

One mid season test vs France plus an end of season test series each year between WCs is ok. If France can become competitive then that could potentially expand in mid season.

I hope England play a PI nation before the ashes series

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Playing France won't gain the England players anything regarding building to play the best teams down under, hopefully alternatives are looked at, but I'd be surprised if it was.

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As I've said previously, I would like to see England play a home game against France, probably in London, immediately prior to leaving for the Ashes in 2025 and World Cup in 2026.

I think it would be a good send off and generate some interest and awareness that you can use to promote the forthcoming matches down under.

Maybe play France, in France, again in the summer. Establish that as a regular fixture.

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25 minutes ago, 17 stone giant said:

As I've said previously, I would like to see England play a home game against France, probably in London, immediately prior to leaving for the Ashes in 2025 and World Cup in 2026.

I think it would be a good send off and generate some interest and awareness that you can use to promote the forthcoming matches down under.

Maybe play France, in France, again in the summer. Establish that as a regular fixture.

I am not against the idea, but what happens to the little reputation which is left when England win 68-0?

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2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I am not against the idea, but what happens to the little reputation which is left when England win 68-0?

The 90000 happy Londoners leaving Wembley won't care. They will just be pleased to have seen their national team play and win, after years of neglect.

I hope.

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On 23/06/2024 at 17:35, 17 stone giant said:

As I've said previously, I would like to see England play a home game against France, probably in London, immediately prior to leaving for the Ashes in 2025 and World Cup in 2026.

I think it would be a good send off and generate some interest and awareness that you can use to promote the forthcoming matches down under.

Maybe play France, in France, again in the summer. Establish that as a regular fixture.

 

On 23/06/2024 at 18:02, Sports Prophet said:

I am not against the idea, but what happens to the little reputation which is left when England win 68-0?

Agree that this is a nice idea, but logistically this is not going to happen.

The Super League season ends a week after the NRL, usually, so if England played France the week after that and then they jumped on a plane to Australia (for the Ashes) it is three weeks after the NRL Grand Final for the first Test. That means then that the third Test is played in mid-November, which has a knock on in terms of NRL players time off and rest. Thus unlikely to happen.

Add that timeline to a five-week RLWC schedule and you are talking a late November / early December final, which the NRL is very keen to avoid.

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2 hours ago, BristolDevonCharlie said:

 

Agree that this is a nice idea, but logistically this is not going to happen.

The Super League season ends a week after the NRL, usually, so if England played France the week after that and then they jumped on a plane to Australia (for the Ashes) it is three weeks after the NRL Grand Final for the first Test. That means then that the third Test is played in mid-November, which has a knock on in terms of NRL players time off and rest. Thus unlikely to happen.

Add that timeline to a five-week RLWC schedule and you are talking a late November / early December final, which the NRL is very keen to avoid.

I see now that it won't be possible this year, but hopefully it's something they will consider for the future.

The British and Irish Lions RU team have adopted this strategy and I think it's a great way to give the tour some publicity.

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