England vs Samoa Series

[Click]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

Yes they are freely able to criticise their clubs if they are being pressured not to play. What are the clubs gonna do if the player says, “stuff you, I’m playing”?

If nations are not getting buy in now, why would they expect to get buy in, in the future? They shouldn’t, so there is no logical reason for them not to complain is there?

Get rid of them? 

Are you seriously living in a world where employees are freely allowed to publicly critisise their employers without any fear of anything happening in return?

[Hopie]

Obviously if you have decided it can't be because of a certain reason, you will accept any alternative as the truth, even implausible options.

It should be said however, there is a long history of players delaying medical treatment during the club season, then taking that treatment and missing internationals to give them the best chance to get back for the start of the domestic season.  I am not advocating for players to play hurt and putting long term health at risk, but it is not a coincidence that the organisation that pays your wages every month benefits from these kind of decisions. Club before country is all too common in our game, it's been a real tonic to see the recent performances of Samoa and Tonga come about from the opposite.

[RP London]

2 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

I take you back to one of my points though. What will the NRL clubs pressure the player with? We’re not gonna pick you? What a load of . If a player is good enough, he’s getting picked.

I think there is much more nuance to this than you are saying with pure "not getting picked".. there is also more around the fact that there is more "not letting them play" than just saying "your not going".. 

People dont complain for many reasons 1 is around what other people/their piers will think of them "for squeeling".. that can be enough as they think they are the only ones.. rather than it actually being something happening to everyone. its common in many businesses/industries around whistleblowing.. 

You may not like it but I cannot agree that people will always complain if this was happening, that just not human nature, whether someone perception of what would happen to them (ie not getting a new contract) is actually true or not that perception/worry in someones head can be very powerful

[Mojo]

9 hours ago, Damien said:

It wasn't a bad idea though.

The idea was good but the timing of it was terrible. You can't schedule a international game a week after the NRL grand final. If Lebanon had nrl players playing in the grand final there is no way they'll fly over to play the very next week. It's also on the week of the SL grand final. If the Catalans makes the final, then that's mostly the french squad gone.

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Click said:

Get rid of them? 

Are you seriously living in a world where employees are freely allowed to publicly critisise their employers without any fear of anything happening in return?

I am living in the real world here Click.

One, the players don’t need to publicly criticise the clubs. They can lodge complaint and not be sacked.

Two, the clubs are not allowed to stop players from RLI sanctioned international duty.

If any club released a player in those circumstances, the RLPA and the agents would have a field day with them. 

Edited September 18 by Sports Prophet

[Sports Prophet]

5 hours ago, RP London said:

I think there is much more nuance to this than you are saying with pure "not getting picked".. there is also more around the fact that there is more "not letting them play" than just saying "your not going".. 

People dont complain for many reasons 1 is around what other people/their piers will think of them "for squeeling".. that can be enough as they think they are the only ones.. rather than it actually being something happening to everyone. its common in many businesses/industries around whistleblowing.. 

You may not like it but I cannot agree that people will always complain if this was happening, that just not human nature, whether someone perception of what would happen to them (ie not getting a new contract) is actually true or not that perception/worry in someones head can be very powerful

I’ve said it many times, what will a club actually do if the player goes anyway? There is nothing they can do.

[Sports Prophet]

6 hours ago, Hopie said:

Obviously if you have decided it can't be because of a certain reason, you will accept any alternative as the truth, even implausible options.

It should be said however, there is a long history of players delaying medical treatment during the club season, then taking that treatment and missing internationals to give them the best chance to get back for the start of the domestic season.  I am not advocating for players to play hurt and putting long term health at risk, but it is not a coincidence that the organisation that pays your wages every month benefits from these kind of decisions. Club before country is all too common in our game, it's been a real tonic to see the recent performances of Samoa and Tonga come about from the opposite.

Nice one Hopie, as no-one has raised this very likely scenario which I anticipate is very much at play in the Len situation. There are players which go in for surgery post season while potentially playing busted through the season.

In this case a player will make his decision based on his fitness. A club can wield influence that they want said player to undergo surgery earlier, rather than later. As far as I am concerned, that is absolutely a legitimate reason for a player to pull out and certainly acceptable under the RLI for clubs to stand down players.

[RP London]

44 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

I’ve said it many times, what will a club actually do if the player goes anyway? There is nothing they can do.

And I have said it many times, it's not all about the club doing something it's about the threat and the perception and the peer group... these are young people in pressured situations in short term careers... 

How many instances in many industries need to happen before this coercive perception culture isn't justice dismissed as "what are they going to do".. 

Edited September 18 by RP London

[RP London]

39 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Nice one Hopie, as no-one has raised this very likely scenario which I anticipate is very much at play in the Len situation. There are players which go in for surgery post season while potentially playing busted through the season.

In this case a player will make his decision based on his fitness. A club can wield influence that they want said player to undergo surgery earlier, rather than later. As far as I am concerned, that is absolutely a legitimate reason for a player to pull out and certainly acceptable under the RLI for clubs to stand down players.

All the court cases about head injuries may say differently that players are asked/told (coercive manipulation) to play, with a rest coming up, when perhaps normal sense would say sit this one out.. 

Clubs have power that is not  black and white as you would like to make out.. and it's not just league it's every sport and it's not just sport it's every industry (media with metoo and also the general grooming and see issues in the industry, people knew bit kept quiet even if they were "unsackable" from the outside, the inside and their understanding/perception meant otherwise... )

[Sports Prophet]

6 minutes ago, RP London said:

And I have said it many times, it's not all about the club doing something it's about the threat and the perception and the peer group... these are young people in pressured situations in short term careers... 

How many instances in many industries need to happen before this coercive perception culture isn't justice dismissed as "what are they going to do".. 

what can the club threaten a player with?????

do you really think Panthers sustain such great player harmony by pressuring all their Samoan international players from playing for Samoa?

I know fully well, Cronulla Sharks and Sydney Roosters are 100% committed to their contracted players participating in IRL sanctioned internationals when they have been selected.

This whole undue club pressure talk is paranoid nonsense.

[RP London]

Just now, Sports Prophet said:

what can the club threaten a player with?????

do you really think Panthers sustain such great player harmony by pressuring all their Samoan international players from playing for Samoa?

I know fully well, Cronulla Sharks and Sydney Roosters are 100% committed to their contracted players participating in IRL sanctioned internationals when they have been selected.

This whole undue club pressure talk is paranoid nonsense.

If you truly believe that players don't have undue pressure put on them then, as @Worzel says "I have a bridge to sell you".. 

But have at your dillusions and wear your MAGA cap and bandaged ear with pride my friend!

[The Rocket]

11 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

what can the club threaten a player with?????

do you really think Panthers sustain such great player harmony by pressuring all their Samoan international players from playing for Samoa?

I know fully well, Cronulla Sharks and Sydney Roosters are 100% committed to their contracted players participating in IRL sanctioned internationals when they have been selected.

This whole undue club pressure talk is paranoid nonsense.

There probably would have been a time when players would have played `busted` to have the opportunity to represent their country, unfortunately the international game, due to lack of credible opposition, means that probably not so much the case anymore. HST you can`t tell me that a first timer like Mitch Barnett for example, wouldn`t ignore a few niggles, to have a green and gold jumper in his wardrobe.

Back to your statement, I think we`d find if clubs pressured players from certain backgrounds not to play it would very quickly become a race issue and no club is going to touch that, and as far as pressuring lesser known players who mightn`t have the leverage of the more high profile players, given the camaraderie amongst certainly the PI teams, dangerous territory for clubs as well.

And critically in all of this, is that it is only three games at most, and I think most clubs would be comfortable with that on the risk/reward scale of having your players go away, mix, get coached and play against the best and return most likely as better players.

[Sports Prophet]

49 minutes ago, RP London said:

If you truly believe that players don't have undue pressure put on them then, as @Worzel says "I have a bridge to sell you".. 

But have at your dillusions and wear your MAGA cap and bandaged ear with pride my friend!

The last time I recall of NRL clubs publicly demonstrating their displeasure of releasing players for internationals was the Denver test.

And what happened? The players still went and played for England and New Zealand in Denver, in the middle of the NRL season. 

And what happened? Not a single one of those players was dropped, sacked or held negatively accountable by their NRL clubs.

As @The Rocket, with the camaraderie amongst players added to the power of the RLPA and the player agents, the clubs don’t stand a chance of behaving in such a manner. Their recruitment opportunities moving forward would be devastated.

Edited September 18 by Sports Prophet

[Odsal Outlaw]

On 11/09/2024 at 23:25, Odsal Outlaw said:

TICKET UPDATE!!! Funny you should say that, I’ve sent a follow up email just now and this time got an immediate automatic reply saying they are very busy but will respond by 19th September!! another week … how busy can they be?

To get this thread back on track, today is the big day. It’s the day I can hopefully buy tickets for the second test!

[Damien]

7 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

The last time I recall of NRL clubs publicly demonstrating their displeasure of releasing players for internationals was the Denver test.

And what happened? The players still went and played for England and New Zealand in Denver, in the middle of the NRL season. 

And what happened? Not a single one of those players was dropped, sacked or held negatively accountable by their NRL clubs.

As @The Rocket, with the camaraderie amongst players added to the power of the RLPA and the player agents, the clubs don’t stand a chance of behaving in such a manner. Their recruitment opportunities moving forward would be devastated.

That was agreed though in the end after the RFL and NZRL agreed to the clubs every demand. It was very much touch and go until then if it would happen.

And they certainly created such a drama that they made sure it wasn't going to happen again.

Edited September 19 by Damien

[Click]

9 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

what can the club threaten a player with?????

do you really think Panthers sustain such great player harmony by pressuring all their Samoan international players from playing for Samoa?

I know fully well, Cronulla Sharks and Sydney Roosters are 100% committed to their contracted players participating in IRL sanctioned internationals when they have been selected.

This whole undue club pressure talk is paranoid nonsense.

The only public statement about this series has said the opposite of what you are arguing.

Your saintly NRL clubs aren't perfect.

[Dave T]

I don't think it's too important whether individual clubs are gonna sack somebody for playing Test RL etc - that isn't how things would be done - ultimately they control things like player rehab schedules and pre-season training schedules etc. so it's very easy to be done if they wanted to. But that's a bit of a red herring.

We basically have a culture issue alongside a logistics issue we have that means that international RL is seen as a post-season afterthought, an inconvenience - which will ultimately lead to these outcomes. We have now decided that we will have one international window a year, and even in that the amount of RL will be really limited and it's a real struggle to get things organised, whether that is player withdrawals, lack of funding, a wedding party or whatever. It's embarrassing and a joke. 

Other international sports just don't do this - they don't try and squeeze international competition in around the club game, they make sure it's all integrated and make it work for the benefit of the sport. That isn't on display here. 

And whilst people may look down their nose around Test RL, there is a hell of a lot of potential here. 

If I think about the last 16 years we've seen:

World Cups delivering some stunning events like 67k at Wembley for that game,

73k and 67k at Old Trafford for finals,

an amazing final in Brisbane in front of 50k and another in front of 40k, 

That WC semi final Tonga v England in NZ

Full houses in PNG

44k in Newcastle for England v Samoa, followed up by 40k at Arsenal for the rematch

Regular 35-45k crowds for big tests in the UK, 25k in NZ and 20-30k in Oz

We've staged games that attracted 45k in Cardiff, France have had a handful of nice crowds, NZ can deliver crowds for Pacific Nations. 

There is so much potential being shown with the above that if organised well could be game-changing. But it's all a little random. 

[Sports Prophet]

5 hours ago, Click said:

The only public statement about this series has said the opposite of what you are arguing.

Your saintly NRL clubs aren't perfect.

Sorry Click, I must have missed that public statement. Would you please share for me?

If I am wrong, then I would like to be corrected and I will take back all I have said.

[Click]

45 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:

Sorry Click, I must have missed that public statement. Would you please share for me?

If I am wrong, then I would like to be corrected and I will take back all I have said.

https://treizemondial.fr/les-deux-matchs-de-la-france-face-au-liban-annules/

[Hopie]

20 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:

Nice one Hopie, as no-one has raised this very likely scenario which I anticipate is very much at play in the Len situation. There are players which go in for surgery post season while potentially playing busted through the season.

In this case a player will make his decision based on his fitness. A club can wield influence that they want said player to undergo surgery earlier, rather than later. As far as I am concerned, that is absolutely a legitimate reason for a player to pull out and certainly acceptable under the RLI for clubs to stand down players.

So your position is that clubs can influence and pressure their players, but not in an "undue" way?

[Odsal Outlaw]

14 hours ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

To get this thread back on track, today is the big day. It’s the day I can hopefully buy tickets for the second test!

Well the day came and fair play to the RFL they hit their 12 day email response time to simply say it is not 40% off 10+ tickets it’s 20% and call this number to book. So I sent them a screenshot of their website where it says 40% and they said ‘yeah that’s wrong on the website’

 

Edited September 19 by Odsal Outlaw

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

Well the day came and fair play to the RFL they hit their 12 day email response time to simply say it is not 40% off 10+ tickets it’s 20% and call this number to book. So I sent them a screenshot of their website where it says 40% and they said ‘yeah that’s wrong on the website’

 

Superb stuff.

[Hopie]

2 hours ago, Odsal Outlaw said:

Well the day came and fair play to the RFL they hit their 12 day email response time to simply say it is not 40% off 10+ tickets it’s 20% and call this number to book. So I sent them a screenshot of their website where it says 40% and they said ‘yeah that’s wrong on the website’

 

40% is a ridiculous discount, 20% is a bit silly when the tickets are so cheap, but they should have changed the website by now if it is wrong. (they havent)



Does the Rugby league express have a consumer advice section, time for some public shaming!

[Sports Prophet]

7 hours ago, Click said:

https://treizemondial.fr/les-deux-matchs-de-la-france-face-au-liban-annules/

That’s not for this series Click. Nor is it a credible press release. No comment on any players or clubs. No comment on why the players are pulled out. It’s not even a press release from the nation with players pulled out. 

[Sports Prophet]

4 hours ago, Hopie said:

So your position is that clubs can influence and pressure their players, but not in an "undue" way?

“hey mate, you have a busted shoulder and you’ve played with that busted shoulder for the last six weeks. You need surgery and then time to recover. We’ve lined up a specialist to conduct that surgery next week and your rehab will start immediately and you should be back to training by the new year” is more than acceptable a position for a club to stand by.

Don’t you think?