England vs Samoa Series

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I get that ,and we don't disagree, and tbh, I wrap that up in the incompetence point with the RFL. 

That said, England RL games are not solely expansion tools and therefore need to be in London etc. That is taking the point too far.

England games should however be wider than just a game featuring Wigan, Wire, Leeds players being held for fans of those clubs. They can still be held in the Heartlands and be sold to people who have no interest in watching Wire for example.

This isn't just a geographical point, although that is obviously the most visible and blunt element of this.

Staging games in Wigan and Leeds ain't bad, but I do agree that not pushing ourselves to bring the Englan team to other fans is absolutely an issue.

As I've always maintained, we have a pretty good formula for geographical approach. NW, NE and London. Staging only two matches isn't good enough.

Yes - expansion can be at its most obvious when its geographic but this is failing to expand within the heartlands as well.

[Dave T]

Just now, gingerjon said:

Yes - expansion can be at its most obvious when its geographic but this is failing to expand within the heartlands as well.

A good illustration is that this game on BBC tomorrow is likely to get 500k-1m viewers maybe, which is likely to be much higher than the 300k or so that watched the big playoff games at club level on BBC. 

There is wider interest naturally by being the national team, even when undersold, it's a huge missed opportunity to not try and take advantage of that.

[Dave T]

7 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

There was a link doing the rounds on Whatsapp last night where you could get tickets for free... 

What was that for, was it legit?

[Gav Wilson]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

What was that for, was it legit?

Assume it was a glitch on the Wigan ticket site. It was legit though. 

[Archie Gordon]

The sad thing for me is that we've helped make Tonga and Samoa into 11-18k oppo because we've pitched them as 11-18k. Brand new tourists - we had a chance to do the framing last year and this. We went timid.

[JM2010]

6 hours ago, Big Picture said:

OMG what planet do you live on anyway?

Here we have a sport invented in England yet England will play a competitive opponent from a country which as @Just Brownypointed out has less population than Hull.  You know, the place where in Yes Minister the Minister wanted to move the head office of a government department and Sir Humphrey and his colleagues all looked down on the place as if it was the ends of the Earth.

Tinpot little island countries like that will never be a draw and having them anywhere near the top of the sport puts it in a bad light.

I don’t get this view. The population of Samoa doesn’t matter in these two games. The players declaring for Samoa are some of the best on the world and they should both be great games. Isn’t the action on the field more important?

[Cumbrian Fanatic]

41 minutes ago, Dave T said:

If we can grow non-Ashes internationals to a regular 20-25k sized event that is a decent place to be, and we aren't miles away. Remember, against France we are more likely to get 8k.

It's wrong to say there is no interest or whatever, but the interest at the moment is nearer 15k than 25k. And that isn't just on Samoa, that's a reflection of the fact that England RL hadn't been built up.

If we can get to Autumn internationals being 20k ish for other nations, 30k for the Kiwis and 40k average for the Aussies then that is OK. That's a solid base.

We don't have to bemoan the fact that we haven't got 50k for a game versus Samoa, or that Engkand RU would get 80k, that ain't relevant.

Be the best we can. That's what we should be holding the RFL to. And selling tickets through Wigan and offering g exclusive local incentives to only Wigan fans is not good enough.

I tend to agreed with this.

It seems that, outside of world cups, our audience seems to be Australia 25-40K New Zealand 20-30K and Samoa/Tonga ~15K. While the crowds for this series are not what I hoped for, I hope that this doesn't mean that we revert to only wanting Australia and New Zealand to come here, I'd actually like to see Fiji and PNG play games here too. 

This is not meant to absolve the organisers from the shambles the have overseen. There are quite a few things that could be done that may help, accepted that some are beyond our control, but I think the following may help in future:

Get the games announced and tickets on sale early.

Don't play games on Sunday.

Slightly later kick offs - as someone pointed out, the atmosphere is much better in the dark, though you need to time them so people can travel.

Compel SL clubs to help promote the game, even if it's just a link to tickets on their website

Let community clubs keep a fee of ticket they sell, say £5/ticket - the money goes to grass roots and may encourage them to run trips - and please don't do what they did at the Grand Final a few years ago and let them buy only the worst tickets in the stadium

I'm sure there are plenty of other things that can be done that don't cost a lot of money but can help.

Anyway, got our tickets and looking forward to the games

[Dunbar]

6 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I don’t get this view. The population of Samoa doesn’t matter in these two games. The players declaring for Samoa are some of the best on the world and they should both be great games. Isn’t the action on the field more important?

It's a ridiculous viewpoint.  My advice is to just let it slide as no-one is changing anyone's mind here.

[Gav Wilson]

8 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

The sad thing for me is that we've helped make Tonga and Samoa into 11-18k oppo because we've pitched them as 11-18k. Brand new tourists - we had a chance to do the framing last year and this. We went timid.

The frustrating thing is the last time we played Samoa in 2022 we played them at St James' Park and the Emirates.

I know it was a World Cup, but the contraction is very much visible.

I went to all three Tonga games last year and felt really disillusioned with England RL. It was ######. Thats why I'm not bothering this year. (I might decide to go to Headingley last minute if tomorrow is a good game) 

[Dave T]

20 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

The sad thing for me is that we've helped make Tonga and Samoa into 11-18k oppo because we've pitched them as 11-18k. Brand new tourists - we had a chance to do the framing last year and this. We went timid.

The grounds used have staged England/GB internationals (including Ashes and Kiwi series) for decades, with the exception of St Helens.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Cumbrian Fanatic said:

I tend to agreed with this.

It seems that, outside of world cups, our audience seems to be Australia 25-40K New Zealand 20-30K and Samoa/Tonga ~15K. While the crowds for this series are not what I hoped for, I hope that this doesn't mean that we revert to only wanting Australia and New Zealand to come here, I'd actually like to see Fiji and PNG play games here too. 

This is not meant to absolve the organisers from the shambles the have overseen. There are quite a few things that could be done that may help, accepted that some are beyond our control, but I think the following may help in future:

Get the games announced and tickets on sale early.

Don't play games on Sunday.

Slightly later kick offs - as someone pointed out, the atmosphere is much better in the dark, though you need to time them so people can travel.

Compel SL clubs to help promote the game, even if it's just a link to tickets on their website

Let community clubs keep a fee of ticket they sell, say £5/ticket - the money goes to grass roots and may encourage them to run trips - and please don't do what they did at the Grand Final a few years ago and let them buy only the worst tickets in the stadium

I'm sure there are plenty of other things that can be done that don't cost a lot of money but can help.

Anyway, got our tickets and looking forward to the games

It is important that we are moderate in our criticisms. We can be disappointed by the RFL. They deserve all the criticism they get for how they sell this series, but we need to be careful not to keep pushing the narrative that 15k is a disaster for games like this. 

8k would be a disaster which is a figure we often still see for England matches.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

The frustrating thing is the last time we played Samoa in 2022 we played them at St James' Park and the Emirates.

I know it was a World Cup, but the contraction is very much visible.

I went to all three Tonga games last year and felt really disillusioned with England RL. It was ######. Thats why I'm not bothering this year. (I might decide to go to Headingley last minute if tomorrow is a good game) 

They just aren't great comparisons though Gav.

Otherwise we should maybe just let Samoa and Australia play at Old Trafford every year and get 67k.

[Click]

6 hours ago, Big Picture said:

OMG what planet do you live on anyway?

Here we have a sport invented in England yet England will play a competitive opponent from a country which as @Just Brownypointed out has less population than Hull.  You know, the place where in Yes Minister the Minister wanted to move the head office of a government department and Sir Humphrey and his colleagues all looked down on the place as if it was the ends of the Earth.

Tinpot little island countries like that will never be a draw and having them anywhere near the top of the sport puts it in a bad light.

Not all this BS agsin about tiny islands, what an embarrassing post.

I'll leave that discussion there.

[JM2010]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It is important that we are moderate in our criticisms. We can be disappointed by the RFL. They deserve all the criticism they get for how they sell this series, but we need to be careful not to keep pushing the narrative that 15k is a disaster for games like this. 

8k would be a disaster which is a figure we often still see for England matches.

We definitely need to try and be more positive. We talk it down so much on here we even put each other off from attending.

Ideally two crowds approaching 20K would be decent with over 500K tv viewers. 

Tonga last year, Samoa this year and an Ashes series next. If we can add a bit more in mid season and improve the marketing then it’s not too bad

[Sports Prophet]

17 hours ago, Dave T said:

I don't mind the approach we currently have, ans I wouldn't mind the approach of naming a team with a day or two to go.

I don't think it makes a difference to what could be discussed in the week. 

There are plenty of discussion points on the team selections and matches that can still be had if people want.

Team List Tuesday is an actual thing over here. Players are named in positions in a squad of 17 and four extras, all of which can make the final 17/18 player team list before kick off. Only with exceptional circumstances can a player not named in that 21 on Tuesday, go on to play on the weekend.

It is a very worthy discussion piece. Players coming back from injury being named in the four extras and people wondering will he, won’t he, be fit in time. Players coming back from being dropped.

I like it as a discussion piece, but appreciate it isn’t essential.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

We definitely need to try and be more positive. We talk it down so much on here we even put each other off from attending.

Ideally two crowds approaching 20K would be decent with over 500K tv viewers. 

Tonga last year, Samoa this year and an Ashes series next. If we can add a bit more in mid season and improve the marketing then it’s not too bad

I've always maintained that I wouldn't have picked these grounds. With only a two tests series if have maybe gone with Elland Road and a similar sized London ground. One North, one South. But that's because I have a more gung-ho attitude to expansion and growth.

I can understand why Wigan and Leeds are being used, even though I think Headingley is a poor ground for these games atbthis time of the year.

But based on some of the criticism you'd think we were playing at Salford and Featherstone.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Sports Prophet said:

Team List Tuesday is an actual thing over here. Players are named in positions in a squad of 17 and four extras, all of which can make the final 17/18 player team list before kick off. Only with exceptional circumstances can a player not named in that 21 on Tuesday, go on to play on the weekend.

It is a very worthy discussion piece. Players coming back from injury being named in the four extras and people wondering will he, won’t he, be fit in time. Players coming back from being dropped.

I like it as a discussion piece, but appreciate it isn’t essential.

Tuesday feels really early tbh, but i suppose it's what we get used to. I suppose we start to see squads named form the Weds here i think when we have Thursday games.

I must admit, team chat ain't something that gets me going, certainly not 4 or 5 days in advance of a match. 

I understand why people may like it though.

[Gav Wilson]

15 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I've always maintained that I wouldn't have picked these grounds. With only a two tests series if have maybe gone with Elland Road and a similar sized London ground. One North, one South. But that's because I have a more gung-ho attitude to expansion and growth.

I can understand why Wigan and Leeds are being used, even though I think Headingley is a poor ground for these games atbthis time of the year.

But based on some of the criticism you'd think we were playing at Salford and Featherstone.

Thats fair, I agree with all that. If we had a game in London too I probably wouldn't be anywhere near as despondent! 

[Damien]

Wigan and Leeds are decent sized heartland choices. They have long delivered the best heartland crowds outside of the football stadiums. We aren't talking boutique, small grounds here. I can certainly see the logic which is very often not the case with the RFL.

The only real disappointment for me is lack of a London/non heartlands test. I think when we have a London test to start it also boosts the ticket sales for the Northern tests too as it wets the appetite and does the marketing the RFL fails to do.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Damien

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Wigan and Leeds are decent sized heartland choices. They have long delivered the best heartland crowds outside of the football stadiums. We aren't talking boutique, small grounds here. I can certainly see the logic which is very often not the case with the RFL.

The only real disappointment for me is lack of a London/non heartlands test. I think when we have a London test to start it also boosts the ticket sales for the Northern tests too as it wets the appetite and does the marketing the RFL fails to do.

I think an 'event' match is always a good addition to any series. It doesn't always have to be first, in fact we have often started the series with a bit of a limp at Leigh or so, but I think even the presence of a marquee ground almost forces the marketing to step up a notch. A fair few of the recent series have had the London game further into the series.

Archie suggested Newcastle and I think that is a place that could absolutely be sold as a premium event, also Etihad. Elland Rd to a lesser extent, but it's a good size and location.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Gav Wilson said:

Thats fair, I agree with all that. If we had a game in London too I probably wouldn't be anywhere near as despondent! 

The really interesting thing would have been had the wedding allowed for a three tests series what they would have done. 

Because the big learning from last year should have been that three heartland fixtures doesn't work. Had they staged a three test series with Wigan, Leeds and maybe Hudds, id have offered no defense of them in the slightest.

[Just Browny]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Wigan and Leeds are decent sized heartland choices. They have long delivered the best heartland crowds outside of the football stadiums. We aren't talking boutique, small grounds here. I can certainly see the logic which is very often not the case with the RFL.

The only real disappointment for me is lack of a London/non heartlands test. I think when we have a London test to start it also boosts the ticket sales for the Northern tests too as it wets the appetite and does the marketing the RFL fails to do.

Wigan is clearly fine as a stadium, size and facilities wise. I'd be surprised if there wasn't some 'RL fatigue' in play this week though, considering Wigan RL have played a long season and been in three finals. That is the risk with playing games at existing RL stadia.

Not been any top tier rugby in West Yorkshire for several weeks (or years, depending on your definition) so I suspect Leeds is doing better for advance sales.

[Bongo1]

3 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

There was a link doing the rounds on Whatsapp last night where you could get tickets for free... 

Community tickets, shed loads going about

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

A good illustration is that this game on BBC tomorrow is likely to get 500k-1m viewers maybe, which is likely to be much higher than the 300k or so that watched the big playoff games at club level on BBC. 

There is wider interest naturally by being the national team, even when undersold, it's a huge missed opportunity to not try and take advantage of that.

And do we use the data of where those people are tuning in from to then do things like plan "expansion".. ok the road games, junior clubs etc... do we xxck

[gingerjon]

36 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

Not been any top tier rugby in West Yorkshire for several weeks (or years, depending on your definition) so I suspect Leeds is doing better for advance sales.

Aye, but once they see the match thread and realise there is no Yorkshire involvement...