England vs Samoa Series

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Click said:

Not all this BS agsin about tiny islands, what an embarrassing post.

I'll leave that discussion there.

As predictable as death and taxes is Big Picture yabbering on about "big cities" or people not understanding etc when actually in little old England if you ask people about rugby Samoa is a name that they will recognise... And they are on themselves a draw to sports fans.. 

Good to see his up to date references of shows like Yes Minister though... Point of not Big Picture . Id avoid TV references from the 1970s and 1980s things have moved on and there are rabbit holes you don't want to look down in those years!!

[Tommygilf]

The likes of Samoa, Lebanon, PNG, Tonga, Fiji are good, especially over here in Europe, as teams that sit between England and France/Wales - competitive both ways to make games with both potentially compelling. We had the heritage based Ireland and Scotland on our doorsteps too but have decided to do little with that.

You really see how the RFL (as the only other NGB of significance) has missed the boat with organising international tournaments. 

We've not helped develop a rivalry and touring capacity with those nations. Ourselves and France could have hosted tournaments/groups with a rotating cast of those sorts of nations when the Kiwis and Aussies were otherwise uninterested. Instead we appear to have just agreed to let them become NRL rep sides. 

I posted years ago that we were at risk of being left behind and had to start planning for life largely without the Aussies. We did next to nothing (well) and are now reaping the rewards.

[Bull Mania]

3 hours ago, Gav Wilson said:

The frustrating thing is the last time we played Samoa in 2022 we played them at St James' Park and the Emirates.

I know it was a World Cup, but the contraction is very much visible.

I went to all three Tonga games last year and felt really disillusioned with England RL. It was ######. Thats why I'm not bothering this year. (I might decide to go to Headingley last minute if tomorrow is a good game) 

I think Wigan & Headingley are OK venues for where we're at with international RL at the moment. Convenient locations for a match let's be honest, fans just aren't interested it. Better than the farce of having both the John Smiths & Headingley last year and trying to sell twice to the same audience. 

The Emirates & St James Park were a world Cup semi and opener venues. I think a fair chunk were heartlands fans still. There's no way in this climate fans would go to those venues to watch Samoa. 

The apathy I have with international RL isn't the venues, but it's how we had the formula in our hands and we ###### it up. Popped up on my feed, 11 years ago today since I was at the millennium stadium for the 2013 WC opener... 

I've said it earlier in the thread, if the sport organised itself and the Ashes were signed sealed and we knew we were definitely heading to Australia for a 3 test ashes series at Brisbane, Sydney and Melbourne and the dates were locked in, we could have sold this as the last series before that. It then creates intrigue of how England look before. At the moment it's a "so what" match. 

[Damien]

 

 

[Damien]

 

 

 

[Damien]

It does seem that Wigan are doing all of this rather than the RFL.

[Dave T]

44 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

The likes of Samoa, Lebanon, PNG, Tonga, Fiji are good, especially over here in Europe, as teams that sit between England and France/Wales - competitive both ways to make games with both potentially compelling. We had the heritage based Ireland and Scotland on our doorsteps too but have decided to do little with that.

You really see how the RFL (as the only other NGB of significance) has missed the boat with organising international tournaments. 

We've not helped develop a rivalry and touring capacity with those nations. Ourselves and France could have hosted tournaments/groups with a rotating cast of those sorts of nations when the Kiwis and Aussies were otherwise uninterested. Instead we appear to have just agreed to let them become NRL rep sides. 

I posted years ago that we were at risk of being left behind and had to start planning for life largely without the Aussies. We did next to nothing (well) and are now reaping the rewards.

I can't agree with this. 

The RFL had Samoa and Tonga touring here 20 years ago playing England A. They have driven expansion of Tri nations to 4 nations, (which really should have seen France as a regular over here but they are so incompetent they let Wales and Scotland best them), they have pushed for expansion of the WC to bring more teams in the fold.

But at the same time they've recognised there is little real demand for tests against these lower nations outside of tournaments (and they're right). 

The thing that has changed everything is that the other partner has decided they want to control everything and play fewer games Down Under.

In reality, the RFL's international strategy has been relatively sound (not delivery i would add).

Nobody has grown an RL nation from a minnow to a full fledged RL playing nation. That isn't what happened to Tonga and Samoa for example. It's all come about because of the heritage make-up of NRL players and the World Cup inclusion. Euro nations don't have that same makeup.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

45 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I can't agree with this. 

The RFL had Samoa and Tonga touring here 20 years ago playing England A. They have driven expansion of Tri nations to 4 nations, (which really should have seen France as a regular over here but they are so incompetent they let Wales and Scotland best them), they have pushed for expansion of the WC to bring more teams in the fold.

But at the same time they've recognised there is little real demand for tests against these lower nations outside of tournaments (and they're right). 

The thing that has changed everything is that the other partner has decided they want to control everything and play fewer games Down Under.

In reality, the RFL's international strategy has been relatively sound (not delivery i would add).

Nobody has grown an RL nation from a minnow to a full fledged RL playing nation. That isn't what happened to Tonga and Samoa for example. It's all come about because of the heritage make-up of NRL players and the World Cup inclusion. Euro nations don't have that same makeup.

But we had a competitive Scotland team (i.e. Danny Brough era 2013-2016ish) on our doorstep and chose to do nothing with them whatsoever (as you say, France getting beaten by them was the only reason they got a 4N spot). That 4N game is the only full international we've ever played against Scotland, which is criminal IMO. We'll never know, but had there been regular, high profile games like this then maybe it would have encouraged more players to commit to Scotland for the longer term. Moreover, had there been more joined up strategic thinking that could have seen a regional academy and maybe a League 1 team up there instead of wasting money on a pins-in-map approach to expansion, then we could maybe have started to create an actual player pathway. That could all have been within the RFL's power but for whatever reason they never chose to invest in that approach.

[Sports Prophet]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

I think an 'event' match is always a good addition to any series. It doesn't always have to be first, in fact we have often started the series with a bit of a limp at Leigh or so, but I think even the presence of a marquee ground almost forces the marketing to step up a notch. A fair few of the recent series have had the London game further into the series.

Archie suggested Newcastle and I think that is a place that could absolutely be sold as a premium event, also Etihad. Elland Rd to a lesser extent, but it's a good size and location.

I thoroughly enjoyed the Kangaroos v GB at CoM Stadium I think it was called back then. I’ve always thought it as a great venue for England international RL fixtures and yes, had the Samoa matches been scheduled for Manchester and Newcastle, then I believe the series would hold far more prestige than playing the matches at Wigan and Headingly whilst still being reasonably within reach of the RL heartlands.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I can't agree with this. 

The RFL had Samoa and Tonga touring here 20 years ago playing England A. They have driven expansion of Tri nations to 4 nations, (which really should have seen France as a regular over here but they are so incompetent they let Wales and Scotland best them), they have pushed for expansion of the WC to bring more teams in the fold.

But at the same time they've recognised there is little real demand for tests against these lower nations outside of tournaments (and they're right). 

The thing that has changed everything is that the other partner has decided they want to control everything and play fewer games Down Under.

In reality, the RFL's international strategy has been relatively sound (not delivery i would add).

Nobody has grown an RL nation from a minnow to a full fledged RL playing nation. That isn't what happened to Tonga and Samoa for example. It's all come about because of the heritage make-up of NRL players and the World Cup inclusion. Euro nations don't have that same makeup.

I'm sorry, a few England A games 20 years ago doesn't count for me. Yes the RFL have been more aware than Australia, but that is neither saying much, nor nowhere near as much as they needed to be.

[Dave T]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

But we had a competitive Scotland team (i.e. Danny Brough era 2013-2016ish) on our doorstep and chose to do nothing with them whatsoever (as you say, France getting beaten by them was the only reason they got a 4N spot). That 4N game is the only full international we've ever played against Scotland, which is criminal IMO. We'll never know, but had there been regular, high profile games like this then maybe it would have encouraged more players to commit to Scotland for the longer term. Moreover, had there been more joined up strategic thinking that could have seen a regional academy and maybe a League 1 team up there instead of wasting money on a pins-in-map approach to expansion, then we could maybe have started to create an actual player pathway. That could all have been within the RFL's power but for whatever reason they never chose to invest in that approach.

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in that. They didn't beat France, it was Ireland that knocked France out and Scotland qualified on points diff.

There are zero examples of a nation starting up a sport from pretty much scratch. It isn't what anyone did with Tonga, Samoa etc. 

[Dave T]

57 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sorry, a few England A games 20 years ago doesn't count for me. Yes the RFL have been more aware than Australia, but that is neither saying much, nor nowhere near as much as they needed to be.

I'm not saying the RFL have been great. But the strategy of bringing other nations in via tournaments is right. It's what has got us where we are now, and the NRL deciding to do what it is now is a separate thing. 

The NRL have never done any of the things people say the RFL should have done. No test series, no tournaments, nowt really. 

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, Sports Prophet said:

I thoroughly enjoyed the Kangaroos v GB at CoM Stadium I think it was called back then. I’ve always thought it as a great venue for England international RL fixtures and yes, had the Samoa matches been scheduled for Manchester and Newcastle, then I believe the series would hold far more prestige than playing the matches at Wigan and Headingly whilst still being reasonably within reach of the RL heartlands.

I think the Etihad is a superb stadium for RL.

The problem is that they are both 56k grounds.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I think there's a lot of wishful thinking in that. They didn't beat France, it was Ireland that knocked France out and Scotland qualified on points diff.

There are zero examples of a nation starting up a sport from pretty much scratch. It isn't what anyone did with Tonga, Samoa etc. 

Not sure what point you're making. You seem to be suggesting that Tonga and Samoa just got lucky with heritage players. I agree on that. But we had a similar situation where Scotland were pretty strong due to heritage players but the RFL made no attempt to capitalise or harness that whatsoever. Do you think that only one competitive game between the 2 countries is an acceptable return?

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'm not saying the RFL have been great. But the strategy of bringing other nations in via tournaments is right. It's what has got us where we are now, and the NRL deciding to do what it is now is a separate thing. 

The NRL have never done any of the things people say the RFL should have done. No test series, no tournaments, nowt really. 

I agree, it was great, but the RFL nostalgia trip acquiesced to the Aussies not taking part in these tournaments by them being replaced by tours.

They didn't bring the Kiwis and Tongans over for a series with France or A.N. Other, they even hamfistedly got a frankly terribly organised GB tour perched onto a Pacific Cup in 2019. 

The NRL may now be deciding to do a separate thing, but that is only because there is a clear and obvious place for them to do so.

[Archie Gordon]

A 4-way comp with ENG-WAL-FRA-PNG would be good for 2025. Not to smash attendance records but to at least breathe a bit of life (and colour) into the season.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Not sure what point you're making. You seem to be suggesting that Tonga and Samoa just got lucky with heritage players. I agree on that. But we had a similar situation where Scotland were pretty strong due to heritage players but the RFL made no attempt to capitalise or harness that whatsoever. Do you think that only one competitive game between the 2 countries is an acceptable return?

My absolute biggest bugbear. We had a Samoa/Tonga equivalent, even if only briefly between 2013 to 2017. We played Scotland once, then moan that there's nobody near us to play of a decent standard.

The RFL deserve to be embarrassed on Sunday. The players don't of course, but they are let down time and time again.

[Tommygilf]

Just now, Archie Gordon said:

A 4-way comp with ENG-WAL-FRA-PNG would be good for 2025. Not to smash attendance records but to at least breathe a bit of life (and colour) into the season.

Absolutely, just to keep England engaged I think we should be playing annual matches against Wales and France. Perhaps home and away at different points in the year. Say 1 set of fixtures early in the year, 1 set mid season, leaving the post season for cross Hemisphere comps. 

[Click]

I think people are seriously overdoing the comparisons between Scotland when Danny Brough was around and Tonga/Samoa. 

Other than on paper having a "heritage" player, what is the simularities? 

Danny Brough didn't exactly scream Scottish pride, didn't he only go with Scotland after (what we get told on here multiple times) McNamara told him no to him playing for England?

[graveyard johnny]

Samoa will give a good account of themselves for the 1st 20 mins - home advantage and travelling without a warm up game will spell the predictable outcome of an Eng win by 16 plus - critchton and brian toto not bothering to come will leave Samoa short on competing - these island teams always seem 4 quality players short of getting a result - ie Tonga last week had no spine 

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

8 minutes ago, Click said:

I think people are seriously overdoing the comparisons between Scotland when Danny Brough was around and Tonga/Samoa. 

Other than on paper having a "heritage" player, what is the simularities? 

Danny Brough didn't exactly scream Scottish pride, didn't he only go with Scotland after (what we get told on here multiple times) McNamara told him no to him playing for England?

Scotland made the 2013 WC quarter finals, and drew with NZ in the 4N, so they were no mugs. I don't think anybody is under any illusions about their comparative strength in relation to the current Tonga and Samoa teams, but instead just highlighting that England are crying out for potential opponents, and we had one on our doorstep for several years and made zero effort to do anything about it.

[Big Picture]

5 hours ago, RP London said:

As predictable as death and taxes is Big Picture yabbering on about "big cities" or people not understanding etc when actually in little old England if you ask people about rugby Samoa is a name that they will recognise... And they are on themselves a draw to sports fans.. 

Good to see his up to date references of shows like Yes Minister though... Point of not Big Picture . Id avoid TV references from the 1970s and 1980s things have moved on and there are rabbit holes you don't want to look down in those years!!

I'm well aware that in RU Samoa is a name they'll recognize, but that recognition is not as a competitive opponent for England.  In Newcastle or London you might get a few RU types coming along to see how plucky little Samoa (which is how they'd see it) does against England but not more than that.

So yes, a tiny little country like that being competitive with England puts the sport in a bad light.  And no amount of contrary assertions unsupported by any evidence can  convince me otherwise. 

[Dave T]

39 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I agree, it was great, but the RFL nostalgia trip acquiesced to the Aussies not taking part in these tournaments by them being replaced by tours.

They didn't bring the Kiwis and Tongans over for a series with France or A.N. Other, they even hamfistedly got a frankly terribly organised GB tour perched onto a Pacific Cup in 2019. 

The NRL may now be deciding to do a separate thing, but that is only because there is a clear and obvious place for them to do so.

In 2012 we organised a tri nations with Wales and France. It bombed.

I think there are two things at play here. Should we have made more effort with Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France etc? Yes. I think it was primed for a mid season plus a warmup for any tournament. This would have guaranteed us a couple of home games a year. So I agree on that point.

Where I disagree is that these nations would be any kind of replacement for Aus/Kiwi presence.

The strategy qe had was broadly fine, you can't really account for a partner just deciding they don't want to play anymore. In reality, you just have to hope it won't happen.

Just like now everyone in the Pacific Champs have to hope the NRL don't get bored of that.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Dave T

[Dave T]

38 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Not sure what point you're making. You seem to be suggesting that Tonga and Samoa just got lucky with heritage players. I agree on that. But we had a similar situation where Scotland were pretty strong due to heritage players but the RFL made no attempt to capitalise or harness that whatsoever. Do you think that only one competitive game between the 2 countries is an acceptable return?

We really haven't got the same quality. We also don't have thousands of fans who will fill grounds. 

We have nothing like what happened in that 2017 World Cup with tens of thousands of Tonga fans.

[Just Browny]

25 minutes ago, Click said:

I think people are seriously overdoing the comparisons between Scotland when Danny Brough was around and Tonga/Samoa. 

Other than on paper having a "heritage" player, what is the simularities? 

Danny Brough didn't exactly scream Scottish pride, didn't he only go with Scotland after (what we get told on here multiple times) McNamara told him no to him playing for England?

I dunno, the Scots (in Workington and Newcastle) seemed to take him to their heart.