England vs Samoa Series

[Damien]

1 hour ago, Dave T said:

Is it a massive opportunity missed?

Why exactly?

Scotland don't play RL. They don't have clubs really. They don't play it in schools. They don't have grassroots.

Why is Scotland a massive missed opportunity?

And I say this as somebody who lives in Scotland, supports Scotland and have watched plenty of their matches across Glasgow, Edinburgh and Gala.

Arguments can be made for Wales and France to have been missed opportunities at various times over the years. Scotland not a chance, there has never been anything of substance there if we are talking about sustaining anything at elite level.

The only possible missed opportunity was years ago when the game had development officers and was doing well in schools in Glasgow (from memory). That however is vastly different from this discussion.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

I think they would similarly find games with Wales, France and even England as low profile. Indeed they didn't care less about playing in the European Cup all of those years.

Why would they? It was low profile. I agree that games against England and France would also be low profile in the current climate - the less said about this Summer's shambles in France, the better. Plus the RFL can't even get the ticketing sorted for tomorrow's game v Samoa. The effort put in to staging the Tonga games last year was woeful, and I have zero confidence that these games v Samoa will be any different. Just doing the bare minimum, which doesn't enthuse people unfortunately.

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Throughout the 2010s Scotland lost more than they won against Wales, France and Ireland at these European Cup tournaments. They even got a 62-24 battering against England Knights.

And why was that? Because as you've already highlighted, many of the best players would have likely given those tournaments a miss. Nothing screams 'second tier' quite as much as having to play a reserve team.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

The only possible missed opportunity was years ago when the game had development officers and was doing well in schools in Glasgow (from memory). That however is vastly different from this discussion.

It's not vastly different - it's completely relevant (as I've stated in many of my posts). An opportunity was missed to do both.

[Damien]

11 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Why would they? It was low profile. I agree that games against England and France would also be low profile in the current climate - the less said about this Summer's shambles in France, the better. Plus the RFL can't even get the ticketing sorted for tomorrow's game v Samoa. The effort put in to staging the Tonga games last year was woeful, and I have zero confidence that these games v Samoa will be any different. Just doing the bare minimum, which doesn't enthuse people unfortunately.

And why was that? Because as you've already highlighted, many of the best players would have likely given those tournaments a miss. Nothing screams 'second tier' quite as much as having to play a reserve team.

Scotland played in France in front of 7k and 10k. That's as good a crowd as England get playing there. The European Cup was a pretty good tournament and actually had teams playing in their countries.

You can't click your fingers and change the profile of a game and what people think, hence yearly discussions around England games where we are playing infinitely more attractive opponents than Scotland.

Why was that? Because they were a very average team full of average players. Scotland had no depth and their couple of decent players largely weren't interested. 2 players aren't a team.

Edited October 26, 2024 by Damien

[Damien]

9 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

It's not vastly different - it's completely relevant (as I've stated in many of my posts). An opportunity was missed to do both.

Well it wasn't because that had all gone way before the period you are talking about.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, Damien said:

Scotland played in France in front of 7k and 10k. That's as good a crowd as England get playing there.

Not any more!

1 minute ago, Damien said:

You can't click your fingers and change the profile of a game and what people think

Not sure what you're getting at here. WC and 4N games were far higher profile competitions, and consequently attracted better players to play in those tournaments. That isn't me clicking fingers - it's just a fact. If tournaments are meaningful and high profile, then more players will want to play in them. We have loads of evidence that this is the case.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Well it wasn't because that had all gone way before the period you are talking about.

That wasn't the point I was making in some of my posts. There was the opportunity to spend money in developing grassroots in those areas but decisions were made to spend it elsewhere.

[Click]

2 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Not any more!

Not sure what you're getting at here. WC and 4N games were far higher profile competitions, and consequently attracted better players to play in those tournaments. That isn't me clicking fingers - it's just a fact. If tournaments are meaningful and high profile, then more players will want to play in them. We have loads of evidence that this is the case.

I wonder what happened to those meaningful and high profile tournaments ...

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, Click said:

I wonder what happened to those meaningful and high profile tournaments ...

Yep. It's all very depressing.

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Big Picture said:

I'm well aware that in RU Samoa is a name they'll recognize, but that recognition is not as a competitive opponent for England.  In Newcastle or London you might get a few RU types coming along to see how plucky little Samoa (which is how they'd see it) does against England but not more than that.

So yes, a tiny little country like that being competitive with England puts the sport in a bad light.  And no amount of contrary assertions unsupported by any evidence can  convince me otherwise. 

Oh for goodness sake you have no idea what people in England think or how they rate teams . Every post you write just keeps proving the point.... Pleeeeeeaaase stop posting about things you have absolutely zero knowledge of or evidence for...

 

[Bongo1]

2 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

I don't think Scotland were ever a realistic prospect for a competitive international opponent outside of a good couple of years around 2013. They performed really well during that time but it was a brief golden period that never realistically had much chance of being sustained.

That's one of the issues with all the home nations. Without a reliable production line of homegrown players it's little more than luck as to who is available that happens to qualify through their heritage. You might get lucky and have a really solid core of top Championship players and a sprinkling of Super League players and one or two from the NRL but within a couple of years you could be cannon fodder for a decent international side.

Wales and Ireland have had some decent teams in the past too but it's just so hard to build on. I may be mistaken, but I don't think the lists of eligible players for the home nations is particularly strong.

Ireland would be fairly strong but its getting all of the players to play

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

Not any more!

Not sure what you're getting at here. WC and 4N games were far higher profile competitions, and consequently attracted better players to play in those tournaments. That isn't me clicking fingers - it's just a fact. If tournaments are meaningful and high profile, then more players will want to play in them. We have loads of evidence that this is the case.

You are talking about 2 players that played in a single tournament each. Why didn't these 2 play in more than one each and always have excuses?

Who are all the other players? 2 decent NRL players and Danny Brough is a pathetic basis to build an international team around and say they deserved x, y and z.

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, Bongo1 said:

Ireland would be fairly strong but its getting all of the players to play

The same Ireland that were woeful at RLWC2021?

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Click said:

I wonder what happened to those meaningful and high profile tournaments ...

Do you not like a tour? Nigel Wood and Ralph Rimmer really think you'll like a tour?

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

Just now, Damien said:

You are talking about 2 players that played in a single tournament each. Why didn't these 2 play in more than one each and always have excuses?

I don't know - you'd have to ask them.

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

Who are all the other players? 2 decent NRL players and Danny Brough is a pathetic basis to build an international team around and say they deserved x, y and z.

I'm not saying they 'deserved' anything. Not got the time or inclination to go through past squads and explain every selection or non-selection. That squad reached the WC quarters, had a competitive game with England, and drew with NZ. 

[Barley Mow]

Getting back onto the subject of the thread, ticket sales for Leeds seem to be going better than Wigan.

There have been no seats on sale for over 24 hours, which I assume means they are sold out.

About 2,400 standing tickets currently on sale.

[Just Browny]

Just now, Barley Mow said:

Getting back onto the subject of the thread, ticket sales for Leeds seem to be going better than Wigan.

There have been no seats on sale for over 24 hours, which I assume means they are sold out.

About 2,400 standing tickets currently on sale.

Before we get too excited, have we checked the Rhinos season ticket offering for any last minute additions?

[Bongo1]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

The same Ireland that were woeful at RLWC2021?

That's the one, don't think they had all available players though did they?

[Damien]

3 minutes ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

I don't know - you'd have to ask them.

I'm not saying they 'deserved' anything. Not got the time or inclination to go through past squads and explain every selection or non-selection. That squad reached the WC quarters, had a competitive game with England, and drew with NZ. 

They weren't competitive with England. England won easily and went through the motions.

They got a freak result against NZ because it was played on a horrendous night and at a stadium that wasn't fit for international RL. The NZ NRL prima donna players just didn't fancy it one bit and looked like they didnt want to be there. I loved watching that draw but let's not pretend it wasn't a fluke due to the circumstances. The year after they lost 74-6 against NZ.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

They weren't competitive with England. England won easily and went through the motions.

They got a freak result against NZ because it was played on a horrendous night and at a stadium that wasn't fit for international RL. The NZ NRL prima donna players just didn't fancy it one bit and looked like they didnt want to be there. I loved watching that draw but let's not pretend it wasn't a fluke due to the circumstances. The year after they lost 74-6 against NZ.

They did draw against Samoa that year though... England are playing them tomorrow...

[Hopie]

2 hours ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

And the game over here has done nowt in the almost 20 years since GB split up to try and develop these production lines of players. So as it stands there's no prospect of these teams ever being competitive on the international stage. We've just had Wales beaten comfortably by France today in a game that wasn't even listed on the BBC website. It's all pretty depressing stuff. And trying to bring it back on topic, hopefully the players will do the business tomorrow and make it a great game, because they've been badly let down by the organisers. Again.

We don't invest enough money in developing players in England, so it would be odd to have a production line setup in countries we can't use Sport England funding in. 

15 minutes ago, Barley Mow said:

Getting back onto the subject of the thread, ticket sales for Leeds seem to be going better than Wigan.

There have been no seats on sale for over 24 hours, which I assume means they are sold out.

About 2,400 standing tickets currently on sale.

it was announced at the England France game today that there were only terrace tickets left for the match at Headingley. The announcer (the usual one) was reading through the "parish announcements" at half time with the level of enthusiasm that this international season has been given and that was a nice bit of good news.

That they are selling cup final tickets at 25% off and grand final tickets at 40% off is still pretty bad news for me, and if they think they sold any Samoa at Wigan tickets to the attendees at Robin Park today match today I'd be surprised, do they think the 600 hardcore fans attending an England Wheelchair were not already aware England's men are playing tomorrow? 

[Damien]

1 minute ago, RugbyLeagueGeek said:

They did draw against Samoa that year though... England are playing them tomorrow...

And lost 50-4 against Tonga. Samoa were a rabble for years until RLWC2021, it was discussed often enough on here.

Not sure what Samoa playing England tomorrow has to do with anything unless you believe that Scotland are in any way similar. They certainly aren't and weren't.

And this is the trouble. People simplistically look at Tonga or Samoa and think we can do that in Europe. We can't, there are absolutely no similarities with someone like Scotland.

[RugbyLeagueGeek]

4 minutes ago, Damien said:

Not sure what Samoa playing England tomorrow has to do with anything

I was subtly trying to get the thread back on topic...

[JM2010]

5 minutes ago, Damien said:

And lost 50-4 against Tonga. Samoa were a rabble for years until RLWC2021, it was discussed often enough on here.

Not sure what Samoa playing England tomorrow has to do with anything unless you believe that Scotland are in any way similar. They certainly aren't and weren't.

And this is the trouble. People simplistically look at Tonga or Samoa and think we can do that in Europe. We can't, there are absolutely no similarities with someone like Scotland.

I’d say there’s more similarities with countries like Jamaica, Nigeria and Cameroon.

There’s already quite a few good players who are eligible for these countries and lots of the towns and cities have Caribbean and African communities that could be targeted for development.

I also think they have quite a strong attachment to their heritage. It would take a few years but they could become pretty strong teams 

[Damien]

5 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I’d say there’s more similarities with countries like Jamaica, Nigeria and Cameroon.

There’s already quite a few good players who are eligible for these countries and lots of the towns and cities have Caribbean and African communities that could be targeted for development.

I also think they have quite a strong attachment to their heritage. It would take a few years but they could become pretty strong teams 

Maybe but you need to be the dominant sport to do that. That's one, if not the main, advantage RL in Australia has. Secondly Samoans, Tongans and Fijians are born to play Rugby and its in their blood, its the main sport on all these islands. Their families even growing up in Australia or NZ will all be so inclined. That coupled with the dominance of RL and its a potent mix.

In England it's far more likely these people will be playing Football and that their families are all into Football, maybe Cricket too in the case of Jamaica.