IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[phiggins]

9 minutes ago, dboy said:

No, because it will now cost any potential buyer considerably more to get their hands on the club and it's assets.

I don't think IMG will look at this in a good light.

They quickly jumped on Hudds when they suggested they would close stands to improve their utilisation score, so they won't let this far more serious act slip by.

Can the deliberate mis-valuing of assets be deemed a fraudulent act in tax law etc?

Have they deliberately misvalued though? Big accusation, and not one that is likely to be proven ahead of grading scores taking effect. 

[RP London]

12 minutes ago, dboy said:

No, because it will now cost any potential buyer considerably more to get their hands on the club and it's assets.

I don't think IMG will look at this in a good light.

They quickly jumped on Hudds when they suggested they would close stands to improve their utilisation score, so they won't let this far more serious act slip by.

Can the deliberate mis-valuing of assets be deemed a fraudulent act in tax law etc?

Yes it would be fraud but only if it was a deliberate mis-valuing of assts. It would also mean the Chartered Surveyors would be in an awful lot of trouble for being complicit in this as, by the sounds of it, it is their valuation and not that of the owners (unless there is a link etc). They could lose their chartered status etc.

The change in value could be to do with the length of time between actual valuations. Original valuation could be some time ago and they haven't changed it (as it is not necessary to do so, and it is not an obligation to do is, if you are not that worried about what the actual business is valued at, which people aren't always) and there has been a rise in values of property etc.. 

everything is just speculation at the moment. It could be accurate and the last one was a while ago, it could be accurate and the last one undervalued it (for whatever reason), it could inaccurate but based on incorrect information that has been given, it could be underhand and could have serious consequences for all involved.. no one really knows. 

Edited August 29, 2024 by RP London

[Damien]

29 minutes ago, RP London said:

As a business we own the land and buildings, we have ours re valued every so often as it is part of valuing the overall business.. so yes I would expect clubs that own their stadiums (not sure if Cas do) to have these revalued relatively regularly as its a major asset. However to rise the amount that has seems odd.. but I'm not an expert in valuing buildings and land so it could be accurate depending on when it was last actually valued properly. 

Don't Cas own a fair bit of land? As you allude to if its not been valued for a while a big jump is not inconceivable with the rise in land value and house prices.

I have no doubt if anything untoward has happened it will be quickly spotted in the process. I also have little doubt that a chartered surveyors would not put their reputation and business on the line by making a figure up just to give Cas a fraction of a IMG point.

[dboy]

There is no way on Earth that 3 acres of land, in a flood plain, with no current PP for housing, in Castleford, with a rugby club on it that isn't moving out, is worth anything like £8m.

That would buy you prime real estate in the centre of Leeds!

[Harry Stottle]

2 minutes ago, phiggins said:

Have they deliberately misvalued though? Big accusation, and not one that is likely to be proven ahead of grading scores taking effect. 

This is one point whereby all clubs submissions and scoring should be transparent to be challenged, the signatories IMG, The RFL and RL Comm should have no qualms at all to be challenged on how the final gradings scores have been alloted if they have confidence in their system, after all they are working on behalf of all the clubs are they not, and they would not want any club to miss out on SL by a wrongly presented submission or miscalculation surely.

[sentoffagain2]

     That is why it will be difficult for any Championship team to get enough points to overtake a sitting SL club.I said in an earlier post once the SL club know that a Championship club has equal points they will find a fraction of a point here and there to keep in front.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, dboy said:

There is no way on Earth that 3 acres of land, in a flood plain, with no current PP for housing, in Castleford, with a rugby club on it that isn't moving out, is worth anything like £8m.

That would buy you prime real estate in the centre of Leeds!

Do flood plains matter? Houses seem to be built on them all the time nowadays.

[Tommygilf]

10 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

This is one point whereby all clubs submissions and scoring should be transparent to be challenged, the signatories IMG, The RFL and RL Comm should have no qualms at all to be challenged on how the final gradings scores have been alloted if they have confidence in their system, after all they are working on behalf of all the clubs are they not, and they would not want any club to miss out on SL by a wrongly presented submission or miscalculation surely.

So what you actually want is for the clubs to sue eachother

[dboy]

1 minute ago, Tommygilf said:

Do flood plains matter? Houses seem to be built on them all the time nowadays.

Yes.

Such land can be built on, but the extra cost of development, construction and insurance makes the land less valuable. It doesn't return the same profit, metre for metre.

[Dave T]

9 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

     That is why it will be difficult for any Championship team to get enough points to overtake a sitting SL club.I said in an earlier post once the SL club know that a Championship club has equal points they will find a fraction of a point here and there to keep in front.

Is this opportunity not open to a Championship club to do this?

[Dave T]

16 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

This is one point whereby all clubs submissions and scoring should be transparent to be challenged, the signatories IMG, The RFL and RL Comm should have no qualms at all to be challenged on how the final gradings scores have been alloted if they have confidence in their system, after all they are working on behalf of all the clubs are they not, and they would not want any club to miss out on SL by a wrongly presented submission or miscalculation surely.

I would assume that the clubs have this detail? But I agree, I would like to see greater transparency on scoring in each area for each club for the public. There may be some commercial sensitivities, but I think seeing the score in each category should be possible. 

As I say, I know little about land valuations, but this does appear to have been done via professional channels. I have no idea whether they are easy to manipulate, or whether it becomes serious fraud to do so.

[dboy]

If anything, the Cas valuation of their land assets is most likely to be a ploy to underwrite a massive loan from a bank, in order to do some ground development.

Perhaps they have realised they will never see the Axiom money?

[Harry Stottle]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

So what you actually want is for the clubs to sue eachother

For gods sake Tommy, this has nothing to do with anyone suing anyone, not even the Three Amigos who have devised this system, it is about getting it correct at the final gradings, you want that to happen don't you so that no one club suffers missing out on a SL place by default.

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Agbrigg said:

I wonder if the said company consulted the environment agency when they did their valuation. As far as I am aware and stand to be corrected, the site has serious issues with potential flooding making development problematic and costly.

I have another theory for this. Listening to many Cas fans they detest the Fultons who own the club but they are digging their heels in and staying put till someone buys them out. Maybe they are behind this because by raising the value of their asset, it makes any potential buyer pay far more to oust them.

That sounds like a more likely motivation to aggressively re-price an asset, yes

[Damien]

24 minutes ago, dboy said:

There is no way on Earth that 3 acres of land, in a flood plain, with no current PP for housing, in Castleford, with a rugby club on it that isn't moving out, is worth anything like £8m.

That would buy you prime real estate in the centre of Leeds!

I mean it stands to reason that if the land was sold for that amount that it would be for housing and the Rugby team would be moving out.

[Harry Stottle]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I would assume that the clubs have this detail? But I agree, I would like to see greater transparency on scoring in each area for each club for the public. There may be some commercial sensitivities, but I think seeing the score in each category should be possible. 

As I say, I know little about land valuations, but this does appear to have been done via professional channels. I have no idea whether they are easy to manipulate, or whether it becomes serious fraud to do so.

Sorry if you misunderstood me Dave, I was not using this land valuation per se, just that it is an example of why transparency of clubs submissions and calculations should be allowed.

[Dave T]

2 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Sorry if you misunderstood me Dave, I was not using this land valuation per se, just that it is an example of why transparency of clubs submissions and calculations should be allowed.

I was broadly agreeing with you. We do need to be careful that this isn't a bunfight - clubs don't get to challenge others' scoring etc, that should be policed by the governing body - but visibility should be there for emerging issues to be highlighted and reduce mistrust.

[dboy]

26 minutes ago, Damien said:

I mean it stands to reason that if the land was sold for that amount that it would be for housing and the Rugby team would be moving out.

Yes, but even with PP for housing (which it doesn't have), that land, where it is, is not worth anything near £8m.

It's also been made clear that WR is where they will stay, hence it has no re-sale value, only an asset to the sports club. Again, not worth £8m.

Edited August 29, 2024 by dboy

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, dboy said:

Yes, but even with PP for housing (which it doesn't have), that land, where it is, is not worth anything near £8m.

Lets face it you aren't the most impartial on this and criticise Cas at every turn on this form.

I'm happy to agree to disagree and go along with the Chartered Surveyor until a time when this valuation is proven to be incorrect.

[dkw]

2 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

The audit isn't going to question the integrity of a Charterd Surveying company.

So the value is correct then. So whats the problem?

[dkw]

42 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Is this opportunity not open to a Championship club to do this?

Id love to know why only SL clubs can use what some on here seem to believe is a fraudulent valuation, maybe chartered surveyors only allow that premium level to SL clubs, not scummy championship/league 1 clubs. Damn them.

[Tommygilf]

4 minutes ago, dkw said:

Id love to know why only SL clubs can use what some on here seem to believe is a fraudulent valuation, maybe chartered surveyors only allow that premium level to SL clubs, not scummy championship/league 1 clubs. Damn them.

Yet again this system is both too easy to cheat yet also impossible for clubs to progress in! Damn! 

[dboy]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

Lets face it you aren't the most impartial on this and criticise Cas at every turn on this form.

I'm happy to agree to disagree and go along with the Chartered Surveyor until a time when this valuation is proven to be incorrect.

I seem to occupy a place in your head.

Maybe you're mixing me up with someone else though. Of course, I have some interest in Cas NOT doing too well, though it's not ill-will, more just wanting them to always be one-step behind.

And I'm certainly not critical of everything Cas do/are. I'm pretty sure you were critical of my opinion that Cas should be rewarded, not penalised, by IMG catchment scores.

I was 100% clear that they are a proper community based club, punching well above their weight and that they should be credited for that.

But, yes, I too will just leave it to IMG to worry about - there is no alternative.

[RP London]

There are some great armchair surveyors on here or people who have watched far too much "selling sunset"!

The chartered surveyors are experts, if they have inflated this they are taking a massive massive risk with their own licence to operate as it is in the corporate accounts which will impact on tax, loan capabilities, company value (therefore corporate gains etc if something did get sold)... There is almost always some wiggle room on valuations as in the end a business/house/asset is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it so you are normally given a range to use dependent on the purpose so it isnt going to be that far off..  

However, if they have it seems short sighted as it wouldnt take that long to get and independent surveyor to look at it and say yes or no to "is that in the ball park"

[dkw]

31 minutes ago, RP London said:

There are some great armchair surveyors on here or people who have watched far too much "selling sunset"!

The chartered surveyors are experts, if they have inflated this they are taking a massive massive risk with their own licence to operate as it is in the corporate accounts which will impact on tax, loan capabilities, company value (therefore corporate gains etc if something did get sold)... There is almost always some wiggle room on valuations as in the end a business/house/asset is only worth what someone is prepared to pay for it so you are normally given a range to use dependent on the purpose so it isnt going to be that far off..  

However, if they have it seems short sighted as it wouldnt take that long to get and independent surveyor to look at it and say yes or no to "is that in the ball park"

A high asset valuation will have a massive impact on insurance wont it? Also any asset with value impacts on the annual financials, I know we had a massive stock take on spare parts we held, got rid of over £1m worth of obsolete stuff because it was weighing the end of year finances. 

So inflating the valuation of an asset makes no sense whatsoever financially.