IMG Grading System (Many Merged Threads)

[up the robins]

For me two of the biggest successes in recent rugby league history have come off promotion/relegation.

Both Hull kr and Leigh have built up after relegation and come back into super league mixing  it with big boys challenging for honours with possibly a third success building now with the rebuilding of the Wakefield club and a bloody good team amassed to take on super league next year.

I mostly think the img system is a drawbridge situation where the established super league clubs know their is little to no chance of any one meeting the criteria in the leagues below them,  the current grading system weighs heavily in favour of super league teams.

As I have mentioned before my club kr would never of got near a A grade licence when we was running In the championship and we built our fan base and stadium improvements off the back of being in super league.

We made our dream happen and now we have got there I dont want to close the shop and prevent other teams from achieving theirs.

What our sport really needs is better marketing and promotion.

[JohnM]

Hull KR and Leigh are where they are today because they did the right things off the field to ensure on -field success. That is exactly what is encapsulated in the grading system.

It must be pleasing to both clubs to see what they have done recognised and codified for other clubs to emulate

Of course, there would only have been limited success, if any at all, without the drive, determination and LEADERSHIP of their owners, something not always visible to the fans. Once both clubs have proved to be sustainable in SL, (no yo-yoing any more) it be comes as important to have a well run club as it is to have a well-led club. One of the two is already ahead in that respect, but the other will catch up in time.

[up the robins]

13 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Hull KR and Leigh are where they are today because they did the right things off the field to ensure on -field success. That is exactly what is encapsulated in the grading system.

It must be pleasing to both clubs to see what they have done recognised and codified for other clubs to emulate

Of course, there would only have been limited success, if any at all, without the drive, determination and LEADERSHIP of their owners, something not always visible to the fans. Once both clubs have proved to be sustainable in SL, (no yo-yoing any more) it be comes as important to have a well run club as it is to have a well-led club. One of the two is already ahead in that respect, but the other will catch up in time.

Hull kr would not have been able to build nor have the investment without having obtained promotion to super league. In our championship years struggling financially to keep afloat with crowds of of around 2,000 even lower on occasions, their was little sense in expanding and updating our stadium especially with no funds to do so. We was told  repeatedly Hull can't sustain two professional clubs never mind two super league clubs.

During the previous licensing debacle we was told no chance not enough supporters or potential, facilities not good enough.

Who is going invest outside of super league to build a club with the odds stacked against them ever making it.

Neil Hudgell amongst others did a  wonderful job of building our club gradually via promotion to what it is now. Would he have continued investing into the club in those early championship years with the grading system introduced I don't know but my guess would have been probably not.

 

 

[Damien]

21 minutes ago, up the robins said:

Hull kr would not have been able to build nor have the investment without having obtained promotion to super league. In our championship years struggling financially to keep afloat with crowds of of around 2,000 even lower on occasions, their was little sense in expanding and updating our stadium especially with no funds to do so. We was told  repeatedly Hull can't sustain two professional clubs never mind two super league clubs.

During the previous licensing debacle we was told no chance not enough supporters or potential, facilities not good enough.

Who is going invest outside of super league to build a club with the odds stacked against them ever making it.

Neil Hudgell amongst others did a  wonderful job of building our club gradually via promotion to what it is now. Would he have continued investing into the club in those early championship years with the grading system introduced I don't know but my guess would have been probably not.

The talk about Hull KR and Neil Hudgell got me thinking to when he first got involved with Hull KR, shortly after which the move to licensing was announced just a few months later. For practically the first decade of his tenure at Hull KR we were building towards licensing and then the system was in place. It can easily be argued that this system, and Hull KR were originally awarded a Grade C, propelled Hull KR to grow and improve. Indeed they went from a Grade C to a Grade B.

[Harry Stottle]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

This isn't really what it's about imo for many. If IMG recommended a Super 8s system (or 2 up 2 down etc) some of the biggest critics would now be championing them. I genuinely believe this debate is largely P&R vs Licensing, with a center ground that is relatively modest in size.

Totally agree with this Dave, but these alternatives are poles apart in my opinion, the first one P&R gives hope and ambition to those below SL level and it also adds in jeopardy for SL which in my thinking adds that sporting competition to what is essentially a league ladder. The second one Licensing having had the expierience of the door being slammed in your face is not a good place to be below SL level, as a fan and having been there once I would pack the pro game in, as an investor/owner if I had ambition yes like Mr Beaumont or Mr Ellis at Wakefield I would reconsider my position if I could not see my investment realising my ambition, and it could also prevent in the future those local boys made good like the two fore mentioned who may consider investing in their local club from doing so, and in SL itself I can see to many games from the midway point of the season with clubs with nothing to play for i.e. the playoffs or avoiding relegation, preparing for next season like Hull have done this season.

[RP London]

12 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

If aficionados of the game know little about what is going on who is going to tell those that this system wants to entice.

And please explain what relevance rule changes to make the game more attractive has to IMG's system, that is a forlorn argument.

FFS who cares who is making the changed, IMG the RFL the NASUWT it doesnt matter what will entice people is what is being put in place not who is putting it in place.. it really is the oddest argument you put forward about "aficionados" or "the people in the stands" knowing that it is IMG or even who IMG is.. it has no relevance on anything. 

I'm pretty sure the last bit is just you trying to start a fight but the rule changes were an example from the past about how the game has changed to entice people through the gates to pay players, its why the game evolved to what it is now.. IMG (as pointed out) are looking to develop that historical "core competence" of being a good game to watch (in the past this was done by opening the game up) by making it more media friendly in production etc not changing the rules and that was pretty clear in the post. You owned a business, you understand about core competences and how they are the key but you have to update to keep them relevant.. that is what IMG is doing, its really not rocket science. 

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

To sum up, and then I am off to work.

There is a massive chasm between the IMG fanboys and the luddites (here, for the sake of brevity, I use these terms completely in jest). It manifests itself in strawman arguments and ridicule from both sides.

But there is a hybrid system that seems to satisfy both camps: keep the grading criteria, make A grade more of a stretch to achieve and give them a guaranteed spot, allow B grade clubs (possibly make B harder to achieve if you want) to battle it out for P&R. There must be a reason that I'm missing for not doing something along those lines and instead allowing sores to fester.

and if you go back in this thread you will see that most of the people that you claim are IMG Fanboys have said that they would have a straight P&R battle between the B clubs. I certainly have. I can understand where they have got to, and I can understand the reasoning behind it, it doesnt mean I agree with it. I would still go with A grades secure B battle it out but we are where we are for the moment and we have to give that a chance, it isnt set in stone for 12 years and we may see that this is actually pretty much what we get to as the grade Bs are as close together so that league points are what makes the difference. But we do need to see this play out a bit before ripping it up and starting again. 

[RP London]

3 hours ago, Damien said:

This is essentially just a minimum standards type system, that hasn't worked in the past even though other sports do it perfectly fine. Those which advocate it now will also moan about it the moment it actually happens and when a club is refused promotion.

Hunslet talk about 1999 and I have massive sympathy for them on that point.. minimum standards are where we should be at, and those minimum standards need to be applied to the incumbents too (I think this was agreed on by pretty much everyone here early on in this thread).

Because the incumbents have been allowed to drift for so long this system seems to be the fairest (and I use that word knowing people are going to shout "no it isnt" "incumbents" etc etc) of resetting this. Incumbents need to work quick before someone else gets their house in order and replaces them. Its a reset moment which then can set proper minimum standards off the back of that all incumbents already meet. Again if we could have P&R which this was going on it would be my ideal but lets see how this goes and tweak.

[JF1]

At the end of the day,IMG or no IMG,the biggest obstacle to progress for Hunslet is the fact that Messrs Davy,Beaumont,Hudgell et al are not associated with the club.

Investment,or should I say subsidy,is the key and without it the staus quo will largely remain.

I am proud that Hunslet are supporter owned and financially secure,but a big lottery win by somebody local wouldn't go amiss.

[Dave T]

48 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

Totally agree with this Dave, but these alternatives are poles apart in my opinion, the first one P&R gives hope and ambition to those below SL level and it also adds in jeopardy for SL which in my thinking adds that sporting competition to what is essentially a league ladder. The second one Licensing having had the expierience of the door being slammed in your face is not a good place to be below SL level, as a fan and having been there once I would pack the pro game in, as an investor/owner if I had ambition yes like Mr Beaumont or Mr Ellis at Wakefield I would reconsider my position if I could not see my investment realising my ambition, and it could also prevent in the future those local boys made good like the two fore mentioned who may consider investing in their local club from doing so, and in SL itself I can see to many games from the midway point of the season with clubs with nothing to play for i.e. the playoffs or avoiding relegation, preparing for next season like Hull have done this season.

I get all that, but it is just an opinion piece that isn't really backed up with any conclusive evidence one way or the other. You may point at declining crowds during licensing, but some people would also point at high average crowds at the top level during that period, Wembley was far fuller, international crowds doing well and so on. People will take the benefits of their preferred system. 

Some Leigh fans appear to have an issue with Hull, which oddly mirrors exactly what their glorious leader is mouthing off at, but many many leagues and comps have no relegation and just don't see long term planning as an issue. Again, it's personal preference whether we see benefits or not.

And that's all fine - but don't be surprised when people don't share your view. 

[dkw]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Did you not get your t-shirt delivered?

He must have missed the IMG FOREVER fan groups invite to get our tattoos sorted. Has yours healed yet? Mines still a little sore.

[Harry Stottle]

51 minutes ago, RP London said:

FFS who cares who is making the changed, IMG the RFL the NASUWT it doesnt matter what will entice people is what is being put in place not who is putting it in place.. it really is the oddest argument you put forward about "aficionados" or "the people in the stands" knowing that it is IMG or even who IMG is.. it has no relevance on anything. 

I'm pretty sure the last bit is just you trying to start a fight but the rule changes were an example from the past about how the game has changed to entice people through the gates to pay players, its why the game evolved to what it is now.. IMG (as pointed out) are looking to develop that historical "core competence" of being a good game to watch (in the past this was done by opening the game up) by making it more media friendly in production etc not changing the rules and that was pretty clear in the post. You owned a business, you understand about core competences and how they are the key but you have to update to keep them relevant.. that is what IMG is doing, its really not rocket science. 

You are missing the point that I am making in that if those who care about the game are non the wiser what is going on, how the hell is it going to transmit it to those with little to no interest, for are they not what will make this system work or fail, i.e. enticing new bodies both to the grounds and by whatever medium they will spend their money on.

[Harry Stottle]

5 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I get all that, but it is just an opinion piece that isn't really backed up with any conclusive evidence one way or the other. You may point at declining crowds during licensing, but some people would also point at high average crowds at the top level during that period, Wembley was far fuller, international crowds doing well and so on. People will take the benefits of their preferred system. 

Some Leigh fans appear to have an issue with Hull, which oddly mirrors exactly what their glorious leader is mouthing off at, but many many leagues and comps have no relegation and just don't see long term planning as an issue. Again, it's personal preference whether we see benefits or not.

And that's all fine - but don't be surprised when people don't share your view. 

Let me say I have no truss with Hull at all, in fact I am grateful that they have employed players that may have well been struggling to find other employment, and not got a problem with people not sharing my view but it is from expierience that I speak not supposition of those who were not in the Championship at the time of licensing, but not sharing my view is reciprocated from my side with the views and opinions of many on here.

[RP London]

33 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

You are missing the point that I am making in that if those who care about the game are non the wiser what is going on, how the hell is it going to transmit it to those with little to no interest, for are they not what will make this system work or fail, i.e. enticing new bodies both to the grounds and by whatever medium they will spend their money on.

I am not sure if I am missing it or you havent been making it clear. You keep saying about the fans not knowing who IMG are.. which is utterly irrelevant this now seems to have changed in the above to if the fans "dont know what is going on" which is very different.

I do agree with you that the over complication of grading does make it a little unclear at the moment how the system is working and therefore trying to explain it to people is not always easy. However, I do seem to manage to do it myself to people here. If you go into too much detail then no one is going to be interested in the same way as I dont try to understand the ins and outs of the NFL salary cap system yet I still quite enjoy the game. I agree it could be simpler and right from the start, and I remember posting with you about this, that I would keep P&R amongst the Bs which would have been simpler... 

however, I think there are an awful lot of people around, lets call them the casuals (I know we want more die hards but they have to start as casuals) who will get excited, involved and brought in by the games themselves, not by the intricacies of the league, and for a lot of them they wont care about P&R or how it is done what they need is a good spectacle, a well produced form of entertainment, a well produced media offering etc (and against all that Big Picture says) they probably wont care too much who plays... SKY are living off many of these types of sports that are beamed in from the US etc those people are still spending money still forking out cash on going to games (look at the NFL in London for 3 or 4 matches people are spending tonnes of cash and probably don't know who Roger Goddell is or how the draft works or the Waiver system or the injury reserve list etc etc).. (And I am just using the NFL as an example of a very complex sport off the pitch I know it is an example of something so much bigger, but it didnt used to be as big as it now and certainly not worldwide).

Therefore, I do agree that it is over complicated and it has not been communicated to the fan base particularly well.. however, I think that is a major distraction and largely not that big a deal and "all will be forgiven" if this does make the impact, along with the other bits they can then put into place, over the coming years and make the difference. That is something we cannot predict (no matter how much you try) and is going to have to be seen.

Edited September 11 by RP London

[Martyn Sadler]

3 hours ago, up the robins said:

What our sport really needs is better marketing and promotion.

And that is a major part of what we were told IMF would bring to Rugby League, allied to improved branding.

So far we haven't seen much of it.

[RP London]

4 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

And that is a major part of what we were told IMF would bring to Rugby League, allied to improved branding.

So far we haven't seen much of it.

But you wouldnt market and promote a product before it was ready to do it.. 

They are making the changes needed to give us a product (media content quality etc) that can be marketed and promoted to the best of its ability. This may take a year or two longer than we would like but means it is done better and we gain more from it.. that is common sense I would say. 

[Gav Wilson]

7 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

And that is a major part of what we were told IMF would bring to Rugby League, allied to improved branding.

So far we haven't seen much of it.

There was quite a lot around the launch of SuperLeague+ to be fair. 

[LeeF]

3 hours ago, Dave T said:

Did you get the gold version? Or blue? Or black? Or White? Or multi colour?

Glad we went with Oxen as manufacturer.

We are all waiting until you get your Grade A next month with 16.27 points when Oxen will run a 16.27% discount

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

And that is a major part of what we were told IMF would bring to Rugby League, allied to improved branding.

So far we haven't seen much of it.

I think we have seen this. The branding around Super League has been improved and the individual match and club promos are a lot better.

I also think the marketing I've seen for the Samoa series is really good.

The issue is more that, in reverse order, the Samoa series is just very weak sauce and the SL branding/visuals stuff is a positive step forward but it's not doing enough to cut through.

So all partners need to be upping their game even though things are better in this regard.

[Chrispmartha]

14 minutes ago, RP London said:

I am not sure if I am missing it or you havent been making it clear. You keep saying about the fans not knowing who IMG are.. which is utterly irrelevant this now seems to have changed in the above to if the fans "dont know what is going on" which is very different.

I do agree with you that the over complication of grading does make it a little unclear at the moment how the system is working and therefore trying to explain it to people is not always easy. However, I do seem to manage to do it myself to people here. If you go into too much detail then no one is going to be interested in the same way as I dont try to understand the ins and outs of the NFL salary cap system yet I still quite enjoy the game. I agree it could be simpler and right from the start, and I remember posting with you about this, that I would keep P&R amongst the Bs which would have been simpler... 

however, I think there are an awful lot of people around, lets call them the casuals (I know we want more die hards but they have to start as casuals) who will get excited, involved and brought in by the games themselves, not by the intricacies of the league, and for a lot of them they wont care about P&R or how it is done what they need is a good spectacle, a well produced for of entertainment, a well produced media offering etc (and against all that Big Picture says) they probably wont care too much who plays... SKY are living off many of these types of sports that are beamed in from the US etc those people are still spending money still going to games (look at the NFL in London for 3 or 4 matches spending tonnes of cash and probably don't know who Roger Goddell is or how the draft works or the Waiver system or the injury reserve list etc etc).. (And I am just using the NFL as an example of a very complex sport off the pitch I know it is an example of something so much bigger, but it didnt used to be as big as it now and certainly not worldwide).

Therefore, I do agree that it is over complicated and it has not been communicated to the fan base particularly well.. however, I think that is a major distraction and largely not that big a deal and "all will be forgiven" if this does make the impact, along with the other bits they can then put into place, over the coming years and make the difference. That is something we cannot predict (no matter how much you try) and is going to have to be seen.

Casual fans (and I know a few) will not give a monkeys about P&R and to some extent the teams in SL, maybe bar the ‘big’ teams.

They will watch whats on in the pub or decide to watch whilst flicking through the channels, so what they want to see is an exciting product that looks good on TV.

Yes we ultimately need more hardcore fans or more in the ground but we also need the casual fans who of they like what they see might turn into more ardent fans.

 

[bobbruce]

6 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

I don't want IMG cancelled. So far as I can tell, nor do many other IMG sceptics/critics.

Surely the options aren't 'back IMG to the hilt' or 'sack IMG off'.

 

So again what do you want. We have the agreement in place that the clubs and the RFL negotiated and signed off. Do you think we will get a good deal if we go back to IMG to renegotiate. 

[Dave T]

It's interesting to go back and see what was said at the start:

IMG has assembled a team of experts across its Media business and the Endeavor network to work with the newly combined entity on strategically repositioning the sport to maximise its commercial potential for long-term growth, build deeper relationships with fans and attract new audiences.

The agency will initially focus on competition restructuring, content production and innovation, domestic and international distribution of media rights, digital transformation powered by IMG’s digital sports arm Seven League, brand strategy delivered by Endeavor’s cultural marketing agency 160over90, and streaming through Endeavor’s OTT platform Endeavor Streaming.  

As part of a second phase of work, IMG will also provide data collection and data-driven product development, including sports betting products and streaming rights via its sports data and technology business IMG ARENA.

Looking at the above, it doesnt sell itself as a marketing relationship.

In terms of the first phase, they have focused on what they've said. Comp restructure is in progress, content, media rights, streaming and digital has seen the launch of SL+ in that space, plus apparently work done with clubs on digital offering (we are regularly seeing SL stars at ING events like golf and tennis etc) brand has had a minor refresh rather than a reboot, but it has had thought. 

2nd phase talks about data and sports betting, and we've already seen some partnerships around data utilisation etc.

If we look at all of the talk around the reimagining RL it was around creating a high quality entertainment product that can be leveraged for attracting investment and commercial growth.

This has never been positioned as a sales/marketing simple relationship.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's interesting to go back and see what was said at the start:

IMG has assembled a team of experts across its Media business and the Endeavor network to work with the newly combined entity on strategically repositioning the sport to maximise its commercial potential for long-term growth, build deeper relationships with fans and attract new audiences.

The agency will initially focus on competition restructuring, content production and innovation, domestic and international distribution of media rights, digital transformation powered by IMG’s digital sports arm Seven League, brand strategy delivered by Endeavor’s cultural marketing agency 160over90, and streaming through Endeavor’s OTT platform Endeavor Streaming.  

As part of a second phase of work, IMG will also provide data collection and data-driven product development, including sports betting products and streaming rights via its sports data and technology business IMG ARENA.

Looking at the above, it doesnt sell itself as a marketing relationship.

In terms of the first phase, they have focused on what they've said. Comp restructure is in progress, content, media rights, streaming and digital has seen the launch of SL+ in that space, plus apparently work done with clubs on digital offering (we are regularly seeing SL stars at ING events like golf and tennis etc) brand has had a minor refresh rather than a reboot, but it has had thought. 

2nd phase talks about data and sports betting, and we've already seen some partnerships around data utilisation etc.

If we look at all of the talk around the reimagining RL it was around creating a high quality entertainment product that can be leveraged for attracting investment and commercial growth.

This has never been positioned as a sales/marketing simple relationship.

Again I think a lot of this is a case of saying IMG will do X (which they actually haven't been signed up to do) so that when they don't do that they have a stick to beat them with, from the usual suspects.

[gingerjon]

4 minutes ago, Dave T said:

It's interesting to go back and see what was said at the start:

IMG has assembled a team of experts across its Media business and the Endeavor network to work with the newly combined entity on strategically repositioning the sport to maximise its commercial potential for long-term growth, build deeper relationships with fans and attract new audiences.

The agency will initially focus on competition restructuring, content production and innovation, domestic and international distribution of media rights, digital transformation powered by IMG’s digital sports arm Seven League, brand strategy delivered by Endeavor’s cultural marketing agency 160over90, and streaming through Endeavor’s OTT platform Endeavor Streaming.  

As part of a second phase of work, IMG will also provide data collection and data-driven product development, including sports betting products and streaming rights via its sports data and technology business IMG ARENA.

Looking at the above, it doesnt sell itself as a marketing relationship.

In terms of the first phase, they have focused on what they've said. Comp restructure is in progress, content, media rights, streaming and digital has seen the launch of SL+ in that space, plus apparently work done with clubs on digital offering (we are regularly seeing SL stars at ING events like golf and tennis etc) brand has had a minor refresh rather than a reboot, but it has had thought. 

2nd phase talks about data and sports betting, and we've already seen some partnerships around data utilisation etc.

If we look at all of the talk around the reimagining RL it was around creating a high quality entertainment product that can be leveraged for attracting investment and commercial growth.

This has never been positioned as a sales/marketing simple relationship.

YOU WANT US TO START THE WHOLE DEBATE FROM SCRATCH AGAIN YOU MONSTER

[JohnM]

39 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

And that is a major part of what we were told IMF would bring to Rugby League, allied to improved branding.

So far we haven't seen much of it.

That's a good question, answered well by others quicker off the mark than I was. Are we looking at specific marketing deliverables or ard we better to try to measure the results?

As I, for example. A TV and campaign ,  saturation of social media, ticket deals, bus stop and tube station adverts....

Or is it better to measure what are intended to be the results of marketing endeavours.

Part of me thinks that as soon as a marketing plan is published, it will be pulled apart. 

Edited September 11 by JohnM