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Sat 8th Jun: Betfred Challenge Cup Final: Warrington Wolves v Wigan Warriors KO 15:00 (BBC)


Who will win?  

74 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will win?

    • Warrington Wolves by 13 points or more
      2
    • Warrington Wolves by 7 to 12 points
      11
    • Warrington Wolves by 1 to 6 points
      20
    • Wigan Warriors by 1 to 6 points
      15
    • Wigan Warriors by 7 to 12 points
      19
    • Wigan Warriors by 13 points or more
      7

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  • Poll closed on 08/06/24 at 14:30

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6 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

Harry try to respond with points rather than childish emoji signs I am sure you are very capable from what I have read from your posts over time.

I responded with the emoji simply because I thought your answer was from the prospective of a one eyed team fan, you put a blame on Cooper for excessive force on one of your players but try to exonerate Dufty as a slip after executing a well intended tackle, I thought both were absolutely ridiculous decisions.

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12 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

I'd expect moaners who offer nothing to moan regardless. Good to see you here again, by the way.

But, prior to last year, there was a narrative that because it was always the same old same old that what was needed was a breath of fresh air and that would definitely get people in.

We had that. It didn't get more people in.

Either way, a 10% rise is normally regarded as significantly more so ... looks like it did get that.

The base is too low, the day too muddled, and the selling of it woeful. But that doesn't change the fact that more people were there yesterday than the equivalent last year.

So what in your opinion was the increase of 10% attributed to?

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7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I responded with the emoji simply because I thought your answer was from the prospective of a one eyed team fan, you put a blame on Cooper for excessive force on one of your players but try to exonerate Dufty as a slip after executing a well intended tackle, I thought both were absolutely ridiculous decisions.

And this answer would have been far better and befitting of an experienced poster like yourself. But I agree with you that they weren't yellow cards.

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1 hour ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I thought the yellow cards were harsh but to say cooper had no part to play is simply not true, he swung his arm no matter how low Thewlis was. Dufty came of the chest then made contact with the head. But as we saw earlier this season players adapt to change and the contacts with heads will reduce.

I think it’s harsh to call that a swinging arm. From what I can see his arm movement was consistent with a legitimate tackle, and we’ve seen tackles with more force than that lead to only a penalty since about round 4.

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Posted (edited)
36 minutes ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

And this answer would have been far better and befitting of an experienced poster like yourself. But I agree with you that they weren't yellow cards.

The dufty yellow card was always going to follow the cooper one and it was sad. 
 

OK, it set the scene and it was a tough clean game overall but the emotion some 90 seconds in and in the first case a pure unavoidable accident could have been the difference between winning and losing. 
 

I thought we had changed from the silly cards given in the first few weeks !

Edited by Snowys Backside
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   Warrington never really got into the game and Wigan did not have to be at their best for a comfortable win.I voted Wigan to win by between 7-12 points so was right for once.When i voted it was the top prediction with just over 30%.I thought both yellow cards were justified.

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1 hour ago, Dave T said:

The crowd discussion is a different one, which is nowt to do with the quality of sport, as we've seen, we usually get a cracker. 

I don't like Wembley, I had a great day out when we beat Saints a few years ago, but the event was rubbish. Despite my team being there yesterday, I wasn't tempted to go. 

It was busier than last year and the atmosphere was louder and better because of the bigger fanbase (who probably have a bigger song repertoire too) 

The thing that stood out for me was the continued and relentless rise of of prices at Wembley .... It's always been expensive but it is getting extraordinary ...£4.50 for a Luke warm bottle of coke....£7.50 a pint......hilarious that people pay it

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, sentoffagain2 said:

   Warrington never really got into the game and Wigan did not have to be at their best for a comfortable win.I voted Wigan to win by between 7-12 points so was right for once.When i voted it was the top prediction with just over 30%.I thought both yellow cards were justified.

Haven't seen the playback only watched live but.....how bad was the missed tackle by Duffty on Farrell?.....also he seemed to deliberately bottle catching at least 2 kicks and let them bounce (did that thing of looking up knowing full well he could sprint to catch it but deliberately not doing so until the last second so that he can look like he couldn't get there )....also would like to see tjhe Ashton errors again (dropped catch and loose carry)....they felt pivotal live 

Edited by Bedfordshire Bronco
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1 hour ago, phiggins said:

I think it’s harsh to call that a swinging arm. From what I can see his arm movement was consistent with a legitimate tackle, and we’ve seen tackles with more force than that lead to only a penalty since about round 4.

Fair point.

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It so happened that I spent the last GF at Spouse's friends house. The husband is from Essex and conventionally Rah Rah. Tbf he was impressed with the match but after 15 mins he was on his phone. Thing is, so was I. 

How ever well coached and skillful, laying on effectively does reduce the spectacle. 

Yesterday I was forgetting the match whilst I was watching it. I was happy when it finished so I could pull some more weeds out of the frog pond. 

This is not about the result. It's not an attack on Wigan. Would I have posted if my preferred winner Warrington had won? Maybe, maybe not. 

My point is that below a certain ruck speed there is little 'jeopardy'. Little potential for excitement. The game is too controlled. 

At the start of this season much was made of how entertaining the games were (when there were enough players left on the pitch that is) but my attention does drift when the game becomes stultified by an over controlled ptb. 

I other words I am more entertained by a fluid match than with commendable, well coached slow rucks. If we want to attract the casual viewer then the early seasons offerings seem to be the way to go. 

Dissapointed with the game and result but well done Wigan. 

What do you think? 

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TESTICULI AD  BREXITAM.

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6 minutes ago, corvusxiii said:

It so happened that I spent the last GF at Spouse's friends house. The husband is from Essex and conventionally Rah Rah. Tbf he was impressed with the match but after 15 mins he was on his phone. Thing is, so was I. 

How ever well coached and skillful, laying on effectively does reduce the spectacle. 

Yesterday I was forgetting the match whilst I was watching it. I was happy when it finished so I could pull some more weeds out of the frog pond. 

This is not about the result. It's not an attack on Wigan. Would I have posted if my preferred winner Warrington had won? Maybe, maybe not. 

My point is that below a certain ruck speed there is little 'jeopardy'. Little potential for excitement. The game is too controlled. 

At the start of this season much was made of how entertaining the games were (when there were enough players left on the pitch that is) but my attention does drift when the game becomes stultified by an over controlled ptb. 

I other words I am more entertained by a fluid match than with commendable, well coached slow rucks. If we want to attract the casual viewer then the early seasons offerings seem to be the way to go. 

Dissapointed with the game and result but well done Wigan. 

What do you think? 

Do you know, I think you've said more or less what I was thinking but couldn't quite put my finger on it. I actually thought to myself at one point "this is a different game than the one I used to watch". 

It's possibly just one poor game but I don't know.

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4 minutes ago, corvusxiii said:

It so happened that I spent the last GF at Spouse's friends house. The husband is from Essex and conventionally Rah Rah. Tbf he was impressed with the match but after 15 mins he was on his phone. Thing is, so was I. 

How ever well coached and skillful, laying on effectively does reduce the spectacle. 

Yesterday I was forgetting the match whilst I was watching it. I was happy when it finished so I could pull some more weeds out of the frog pond. 

This is not about the result. It's not an attack on Wigan. Would I have posted if my preferred winner Warrington had won? Maybe, maybe not. 

My point is that below a certain ruck speed there is little 'jeopardy'. Little potential for excitement. The game is too controlled. 

At the start of this season much was made of how entertaining the games were (when there were enough players left on the pitch that is) but my attention does drift when the game becomes stultified by an over controlled ptb. 

I other words I am more entertained by a fluid match than with commendable, well coached slow rucks. If we want to attract the casual viewer then the early seasons offerings seem to be the way to go. 

Dissapointed with the game and result but well done Wigan. 

What do you think? 

I’m in agreement regarding the ‘controlled’ rucks.  If the tackle is deemed ‘held’ then all the players should just roll away, not slowly peeling off in a slow sequence.  

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3 hours ago, ELBOWSEYE said:

I thought the yellow cards were harsh but to say cooper had no part to play is simply not true, he swung his arm no matter how low Thewlis was. Dufty came of the chest then made contact with the head. But as we saw earlier this season players adapt to change and the contacts with heads will reduce.

The only part Cooper played was being in the vicinity of Thewlis when he slipped! The call from Liam Moore as video ref was that his contact was forceful but the replays show that's nonsense.

Cooper's forward momentum had all but stopped as he takes both feet off the ground briefly and plants them, so it's not like he was imparting force by hitting at pace.

To say it was a 'swinging arm' means every single tackle is a swinging arm. To wrap in a tackle you must raise your arms and move them upwards towards the opponent and that was the motion he was making. It's hard to argue the swinging arm was forceful as the arm moves inches at most. You can't generate much force at all in that small movement. More importantly, the 'swinging arm' motion is irrelevant to the force imparted because the initial contact is actually with Cooper's bicep then chest, and there's even less forward movement of the bicep towards the face. Thewlis slips, hits the bicep and falls through the arm. 

The number one contributing factor to any force in that incident is how quickly Thewlis is moving and how fast he falls. You can't even argue that Cooper needs to get lower because if he does then he'd have caught him in the face with his shoulder and that would automatically increase the severity!

It's a bit like the incident with Kaide Ellis against Castleford right back at the beginning of the season. The rules were harsher back then, but even then it was a penalty and no further action, because despite the force there was mitigation because the rapid loss of height with no other tackler involved meant there wasn't much that could be done. 

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, Cheadle Leyther said:

Really!! 58,000 last year with 2 of the so called lesser teams also affected by a major accident on the M1. This year 2 of the so called big teams boosted by around 7,000 Wakefield fans. Where were these teams fans?!!

I think you’ll find that the majority of both Wigan and Warrington’s regular supporters will have attended the match. The CCF attendance is made up of regular supporters of the finalists, people from the two towns who will only go to a final and fans from other clubs who go every season. 

Edited by Jinking Jimmy
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I know I’m biased, but I thought most of this final quite boring compared to the excitement of last years.

P.S. Although I am usually an ardent critic of the other code, it was quite moving to see their 7th minute equivalent appreciation of Rob Burrow at Twickers.

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I really enjoyed the game, and thought the atmosphere was superb. Wigan were fantastic overall. Our line speed and control in defence was extraordinary.

One thing that struck me about this Wigan side is how many players in it have improved because of the coaching and the environment. Aside from the fantastic Luke Thompson (who was in a funk before we signed him) and arguably Wardle, this isn’t a team of players bought in as big names. We are a million miles away from simply buying anyone and everyone, as we did 30 odd years ago. They were either developed through our system - Marshall, Eckersley, Smith, Havard, O’Neill, Byrne, Faz, Junior… - or else players we saw something in like French, Field and Miski - who have got better and better. 

With the richest backer in the game in charge, and seemingly a new air of ambition and optimism around the game, I think we could go far, and produce a lot of players who could form the backbone of a glorious era for the national side. While, at the same time, with the salary cap in place, there being no reason why any of perhaps half a dozen other clubs couldn’t do the same. Let’s hope that we see that - because what we have done can be emulated across the board to drive our game to greater heights. 

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Posted (edited)

Regarding yesterday’s attendance; maybe the love affair with Wembley is over for fans. I went yesterday with my wife and two grandchildren at a cost of over £400 pounds for the day. I’m sure others spent a lot more. The question is where is a suitable alternative? Man City’s ground holds 53,400 and Liverpool’s just over 61,000, for example, so if held at either of those stadiums the attendance would be less than yesterday but at 100% of capacity.

Edited by Jinking Jimmy
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24 minutes ago, Jinking Jimmy said:

Regarding yesterday’s attendance; maybe the love affair with Wembley is over for fans. I went yesterday with my wife and two grandchildren at a cost of over £400 pounds for the day. I’m sure others spent a lot more. The question is where is a suitable alternative? Man City’s ground holds 53,400 and Liverpool’s just over 61,000, for example, so if held at either of those stadiums the attendance would be less than yesterday but at 100% of capacity.

 But you’re making the assumption that everyone that attended yesterday would also attend if the final was held elsewhere.

The attendance in 2022, and the attendance at magic weekend at various venues suggests otherwise

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15 minutes ago, Jinking Jimmy said:

Regarding yesterday’s attendance; maybe the love affair with Wembley is over for fans.

Good post Jimmy. The above point, I think, is on to something. 

Wembley is like many new-ish stadia nowadays in that it feels soul-less, like a (very expensive) visit to Ikea rather than something akin to the genuine magic of the old stadium. 

It doesn't have to be like that. Spurs and Arsenal's newer stadia are comparably expensive but I came away from both of those having had a much more enjoyable experience. 

As for other alternatives, I'd prefer trips to other large stadia in London, Cardiff, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow and Dublin before returning to Wembley. 

Yesterday's game also feeling (to me) somewhat flat didn't help matters either. 

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Having watched Springsteen in every outdoor venue since 1985 ,the last being Sunderland the other week I agree in that Wembley has to be packed to the rafters for it to ignite. Worst venue ever was Hampden Park..I think IMG needs to address this point..Stadiums need to be packed for the enhanced experience. Yesterday in my view did not hit the brief..Rugby league is the best sport in the world by a mile , so why not sell it as that...

Only my view...

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23 minutes ago, Thunder Road said:

Having watched Springsteen in every outdoor venue since 1985 ,the last being Sunderland the other week I agree in that Wembley has to be packed to the rafters for it to ignite. Worst venue ever was Hampden Park..I think IMG needs to address this point..Stadiums need to be packed for the enhanced experience. Yesterday in my view did not hit the brief..Rugby league is the best sport in the world by a mile , so why not sell it as that...

Only my view...

Were you there? The atmosphere was far better than you would have thought from simply watching the BBC. 

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Not a great final, but not an utter stinker*. Compared to the Football equivalent, the FA Cup, the CC Final serves up good and great games far more often than average or poor ones. Football fans don't see this as the end of the world.

The state of the nation has an effect too. Times are tough financially, and Rugby League's traditional support base are doing it among the toughest. Travelling to London is not only expensive but grotesquely unreliable (West Coast Main Line worse than East, but neither are adequate). 

The capital is also painfully expensive for visitors to stay in, so the Final has become a day trip for many instead of a weekend on the town. Fans head home and hope to get there at a civilised hour, so the 1895 Cup final is always going to kick off after a mass exodus.

A 6,000 increase on last year's Final is good news. Not as good news as a sell-out, but we have to be realistic.

*apart from in the eyes of people living with aggravated nostalgia disorder.

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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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22 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

Were you there? The atmosphere was far better than you would have thought from simply watching the BBC. 

It didn't sound that bad on TV. Although a bit muted, you can still tell the difference between a minority of the crowd shouting to entire stands roaring and cheering.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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59 minutes ago, Thunder Road said:

Having watched Springsteen in every outdoor venue since 1985 ,the last being Sunderland the other week I agree in that Wembley has to be packed to the rafters for it to ignite. Worst venue ever was Hampden Park..I think IMG needs to address this point..Stadiums need to be packed for the enhanced experience. Yesterday in my view did not hit the brief..Rugby league is the best sport in the world by a mile , so why not sell it as that...

Only my view...

I agree. I find 30k+ empty seats a bit of a downer; moreso when they are an expansive share of bright red.

I think there are two solutions: open the whole stadium (costs more); cover the seats with club badges, photos of Lance Todd winners, etc. (minimal cost). They used to do something like the latter.

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