When do we find out the SL teams for next season based on IMG ratings?

[Wakefield Ram]

45 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

IMG aren't advocating that you see, that's why Cornwall, Midlands aren't very highly rated.

What it is saying is that a lot of those other teams aren't very good either, providing them KPIs to work towards to improve their performance levels and value to the league, and letting them decide if they want to do that or not.

I have worked with "consultants" for decades. I can only think of one occasion when they've done anything other than try to extract maximum income for themselves. The KPIs are structured to give most SL clubs immunity from relegation.

That's what consultants do. They look for the opinion of the most powerful people and tell them what they want to hear. It's only licencing revived from 20 odd years ago. 

If the aim of RL is to create security for SL clubs on the M62, they've done it. 

The last "strategic partnership" I was a party to ended with the client (think RFL in this case) suing the "strategic partner " (think IMG) for £millions for failing to deliver. 

Of course the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds etc...don't want to risk serious competition affecting their chances. And that's what IMG have delivered, a guarantee of the status quo. 

[Snowys Backside]

Expansion starts at grass roots level, not to the detriment of established  clubs. 

Winning. The championship does not guarantee SL I believe and neither does polishing a ###### of a stadium but at least some clubs have finally started to do something about it (albeit 25 years too late!) 

[Tommygilf]

7 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

I have worked with "consultants" for decades. I can only think of one occasion when they've done anything other than try to extract maximum income for themselves. The KPIs are structured to give most SL clubs immunity from relegation.

That's what consultants do. They look for the opinion of the most powerful people and tell them what they want to hear. It's only licencing revived from 20 odd years ago. 

If the aim of RL is to create security for SL clubs on the M62, they've done it. 

The last "strategic partnership" I was a party to ended with the client (think RFL in this case) suing the "strategic partner " (think IMG) for £millions for failing to deliver. 

Of course the likes of Wigan, Saints, Leeds etc...don't want to risk serious competition affecting their chances. And that's what IMG have delivered, a guarantee of the status quo. 

That's nonsense

[Wakefield Ram]

16 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

That's nonsense

Which bit is nonsense exactly. That the consultants haven't given the SL clubs what they wanted?

[sam4731]

54 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

Expansion starts at grass roots level, not to the detriment of established  clubs. 

Winning. The championship does not guarantee SL I believe and neither does polishing a ###### of a stadium but at least some clubs have finally started to do something about it (albeit 25 years too late!) 

And how do you convince a community to start a grassroots programme without the opportunity of a pathway to SL?

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Wakefield Ram said:

Which bit is nonsense exactly. That the consultants haven't given the SL clubs what they wanted?

They've said this is the model for a solid club that adds to the comp they want. It's obvious that such a club is going to look something like Leeds/Saints/Wigan.

That they are saying that is the vision isn't controversial.

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

3 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

It isn't sport, it's a commercial business. The sport isn't strong enough to risk its entire commercial income on the whims of 1 championship grand final or one team having a bad year.

What the gradings show is that, in reality, we have just about 7 Super League appropriate clubs. "Sport" hasn't delivered any more.

Please name one club who's relegation would cost the competition it's entire commercial income. Utterly ridiculous comment.

[The Blues Ox]

6 hours ago, sam4731 said:

Yes but it's cyclical isn't it. They have produced more SL players because they have been in SL. Being in SL means a stronger academy. A stronger academy means more junior clubs in the area to provide pathways to producing the players.

The reason that Rotheram haven't produced many (if any) SL players is because they don't have a SL team, not because they're not very good at producing talent.

Halifax have not been in Super League in the time Toulouse have been part of the British game, they have not had an academy team, junior clubs in the area are dying yet the area has produced more SL players than the majority of other areas that are in SL so that argument seems a little muted.

[Eddie]

2 hours ago, binosh said:

Boring, lazy comment trotted out everytime we discuss french teams, just stick 5 or 6 french teams in if it’s just about players getting a nice lifestyle and see how quickly Sky pull the funding. Better still just stick Cornwall in with Midlands and tell Wakefield, Featherstone, Oldham etc not to bother for being too close to a Motorway.

Do you seriously think Sky get loads of subscriptions because of Salford or Huddersfield Giants? 

[Snowys Backside]

56 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

And how do you convince a community to start a grassroots programme without the opportunity of a pathway to SL?

Any club in SL needs to be sustainable. We have tried on the spot expansion numerous times with toil and tears and it’s got us nowhere. 
 

Leigh are getting it right. Wakefield (with the nudge of relegation) have finally spent a pound on Belle View and So have Cas. 
 

Toulouse (although a fabulous City) is still a white elephant dominated by football and kick and clap. I’ve been there. Crowd announced as 4000 and I could not get to any more than 900, and they have already disappeared once. Catalans have it spot on. If anyone thinks that Toulouse have more to offer any current SL side or Wakey for that matter are deluded. Clubs are turning the corner. We might break the mould in the next 5 years of some team breaking into the big 4 on merit. 
 

Toulouse to answer your question don’t need convincing at grass roots level. It should be a guarantee. If they can’t provide it, go away as it is in my opinion the future and the most important part of our game. Invest in grass roots, not expansion ! 

[sam4731]

25 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

Any club in SL needs to be sustainable. We have tried on the spot expansion numerous times with toil and tears and it’s got us nowhere. 
 

Leigh are getting it right. Wakefield (with the nudge of relegation) have finally spent a pound on Belle View and So have Cas. 
 

Toulouse (although a fabulous City) is still a white elephant dominated by football and kick and clap. I’ve been there. Crowd announced as 4000 and I could not get to any more than 900, and they have already disappeared once. Catalans have it spot on. If anyone thinks that Toulouse have more to offer any current SL side or Wakey for that matter are deluded. Clubs are turning the corner. We might break the mould in the next 5 years of some team breaking into the big 4 on merit. 
 

Toulouse to answer your question don’t need convincing at grass roots level. It should be a guarantee. If they can’t provide it, go away as it is in my opinion the future and the most important part of our game. Invest in grass roots, not expansion ! 

But if you only invest in existing grassroots, the top of the game only gets more saturated. Logic dictates that when a player pool is big enough to sustain more teams, you expand the games reach. An area is going to be reluctant to promote more grassroots without pathways in place.

[PECETTO]

44 minutes ago, Snowys Backside said:

Any club in SL needs to be sustainable. We have tried on the spot expansion numerous times with toil and tears and it’s got us nowhere. 
 

Leigh are getting it right. Wakefield (with the nudge of relegation) have finally spent a pound on Belle View and So have Cas. 
 

Toulouse (although a fabulous City) is still a white elephant dominated by football and kick and clap. I’ve been there. Crowd announced as 4000 and I could not get to any more than 900, and they have already disappeared once. Catalans have it spot on. If anyone thinks that Toulouse have more to offer any current SL side or Wakey for that matter are deluded. Clubs are turning the corner. We might break the mould in the next 5 years of some team breaking into the big 4 on merit. 
 

Toulouse to answer your question don’t need convincing at grass roots level. It should be a guarantee. If they can’t provide it, go away as it is in my opinion the future and the most important part of our game. Invest in grass roots, not expansion ! 

When was this match with 4000 annonced and only 900 ? 

[binosh]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

Do you seriously think Sky get loads of subscriptions because of Salford or Huddersfield Giants? 

Sky target British households for TV packages and broadband amongst other things, they pad out their Sports Channels with British Rugby League and have done since the inception of SL and sell advertising on their channels, it’s a relationship with the English RFL, they can’t DO ANY of that in France, nor can they display the competitions headline sponsor, have you ever seen any French company’s advertise with Sky?? The french can’t even be bothered to televise their own domestic leagues. There is zero commercial sense in having french teams in SL other than a competitive fixture and a lovely weekend away,  and don’t for one minute suggest it’s to improve the national team.

The fact is a sustained period with a relatively successful Bradford, Widnes or York would instantly improve the cash flow of all clubs, and improve the TV viewing of stadiums more so than anything Toulouse, Carcasonne, Catalans or any other french team have ever given to Super League.

Before you claim I’m anti expansion, M62 hugger or parochial or all the other things that get chucked out to anyone with a difference of opinion I actually want Catalans to be in SL, but don’t try and tell me they add anything commercially, and yes I believe all the other clubs do.

[Trojan Horse]

2 hours ago, Snowys Backside said:

Any club in SL needs to be sustainable. We have tried on the spot expansion numerous times with toil and tears and it’s got us nowhere. 
 

Leigh are getting it right. Wakefield (with the nudge of relegation) have finally spent a pound on Belle View and So have Cas. 
 

Toulouse (although a fabulous City) is still a white elephant dominated by football and kick and clap. I’ve been there. Crowd announced as 4000 and I could not get to any more than 900, and they have already disappeared once. Catalans have it spot on. If anyone thinks that Toulouse have more to offer any current SL side or Wakey for that matter are deluded. Clubs are turning the corner. We might break the mould in the next 5 years of some team breaking into the big 4 on merit. 
 

Toulouse to answer your question don’t need convincing at grass roots level. It should be a guarantee. If they can’t provide it, go away as it is in my opinion the future and the most important part of our game. Invest in grass roots, not expansion ! 

Be interesting to see what crowd Toulouse give vs Trinity. It looked absolutely deserted in the Toulouse side and I’ve seen some posts suggesting Trinity weren’t far off from the home fans in numbers. Barely looked 1000 in the stand camera was facing with other side md deserted. 
 

Think Toulouse have had a number of 2000 approximate averages this and last season. Not sure how sustainable long term that is. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, binosh said:

Sky target British households for TV packages and broadband amongst other things, they pad out their Sports Channels with British Rugby League and have done since the inception of SL and sell advertising on their channels, it’s a relationship with the English RFL, they can’t DO ANY of that in France, nor can they display the competitions headline sponsor, have you ever seen any French company’s advertise with Sky?? The french can’t even be bothered to televise their own domestic leagues. There is zero commercial sense in having french teams in SL other than a competitive fixture and a lovely weekend away,  and don’t for one minute suggest it’s to improve the national team.

The fact is a sustained period with a relatively successful Bradford, Widnes or York would instantly improve the cash flow of all clubs, and improve the TV viewing of stadiums more so than anything Toulouse, Carcasonne, Catalans or any other french team have ever given to Super League.

Before you claim I’m anti expansion, M62 hugger or parochial or all the other things that get chucked out to anyone with a difference of opinion I actually want Catalans to be in SL, but don’t try and tell me they add anything commercially, and yes I believe all the other clubs do.

I understand what you’re saying but I (a Sky sports subscriber) am far more likely to tune in to watch Catalans than I am Salford. That’s nothing against Salford, it’s just the way I feel, and a I doubt that’s unique. So even if there isn’t a French tv deal there is at least one viewer extra that Sky get from showing the Dragons ahead of another M62 team there to make up the numbers. 
 

I also wouldn’t lump York in with Bradford and Widnes, both of whom are historic giants of the game and have won the WCC. 

Edited July 21 by Eddie

[Eddie]

36 minutes ago, Trojan Horse said:

Be interesting to see what crowd Toulouse give vs Trinity. It looked absolutely deserted in the Toulouse side and I’ve seen some posts suggesting Trinity weren’t far off from the home fans in numbers. Barely looked 1000 in the stand camera was facing with other side md deserted. 
 

Think Toulouse have had a number of 2000 approximate averages this and last season. Not sure how sustainable long term that is. 

That can’t be right, on this forum we frequently get told they’d average 10k in SL. 

[Trojan Horse]

7 minutes ago, Eddie said:

That can’t be right, on this forum we frequently get told they’d average 10k in SL. 

That’s the equivalent of saying trinity would get 15k regularly in SL I suppose. Just fans of respective clubs exaggerating to help promote their club. Cant blame them. I can be guilty of it with my club sometimes. 

[bigbaldnmad]

23 hours ago, Hello said:

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=894259367884230

Toulouse crowd at this game was reported at a good few thousand from what I remember, and this wasn't even in the top tier.  The population of Toulouse is about half a million. Is it ridiculous to say that their crowds could be comparable to Leigh if they were to get back up to the top level?  There's a lot of ridiculous things said on this forum but maybe with some ambition to expand the sport we could all recognise potential.

The crowd was around 9k, with around 800 from West Yorkshire and a significant number of Catalans fans (including the band dressed in their Catalans tops). If I remember rightly this was the same season that Catalans got to the GF, played the night before.

There were lots of people who weren't obvious rugby fans who were there for the occasion. They had little, if any, interest in the game and were more interested in the passion showed by the visiting supporters than what was happening on the field.

 

 

[Tommygilf]

4 hours ago, Jill Halfpenny fan said:

Please name one club who's relegation would cost the competition it's entire commercial income. Utterly ridiculous comment.

It's not 1 club, but clearly we only have 7 clubs up to super league standard. We lost Bradford. We could lose more.

We can't afford that.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, binosh said:

The fact is a sustained period with a relatively successful Bradford, Widnes or York would instantly improve the cash flow of all clubs, and improve the TV viewing of stadiums more so than anything Toulouse, Carcasonne, Catalans or any other french team have ever given to Super League.

Totally agree, but there isn't the money in England, or rather, the places in England where the sport is strongest, to provide that strong club in those places right now. Not in the old model anyway.

We need outside investment, and that isn't coming into Widnes or Bradford in the required levels.

[Hello]

6 minutes ago, bigbaldnmad said:

The crowd was around 9k, with around 800 from West Yorkshire and a significant number of Catalans fans (including the band dressed in their Catalans tops). If I remember rightly this was the same season that Catalans got to the GF, played the night before.

There were lots of people who weren't obvious rugby fans who were there for the occasion. They had little, if any, interest in the game and were more interested in the passion showed by the visiting supporters than what was happening on the field.

 

 

Okay, so they managed to convince thousands of people to go to a sport that they had no interest in watching but were interested in taking time and effort in their leisure time to go and watch the away fans at a game of that sport that they weren't interested in.......lol , that sounds like a convincing argument

Edited July 21 by Hello

[bigbaldnmad]

I can only tell you what I saw, obviously I must be mistaken.

There were considerably less for the same million pound game against London last year... quite interesting that you didn't post a link to that where the stand on the far side was relatively empty.

Toulouse is a RU city, not a bit interested in RL, which is why the TO v Fev game last season was played at a small, sub standard ground, to allow Japan to train.... yes I did say TRAIN, at the Toulouse stadium during the RU world cup.

But if you want to pick one game, rather than all the others that show considerable less support, even in SL, then crack on. 

[glossop saint]

13 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Halifax have not been in Super League in the time Toulouse have been part of the British game, they have not had an academy team, junior clubs in the area are dying yet the area has produced more SL players than the majority of other areas that are in SL so that argument seems a little muted.

This is because RL is ingrained in the culture of the area. That is wonderful. However, as you said, the junior clubs in the area are dying. It will be a struggle to continue to produce those players. Who takes up the slack of producing those players? We need to get other areas producing. Therefore we need a bigger pool. This is why as a sport we need to expand.

I'm not sure that this is the correct way to do it. I would probably go further and include London and TO or maybe even Midlands in SL with a security of no relegation but that isn't for now. These are the places that can help supply the numbers, given the correct support and circumstances, to add to the players from the heartland areas. As well as add in more spectators, sponsorship money, exposure for the port etc.

[Damien]

8 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

The crowd was around 9k, with around 800 from West Yorkshire and a significant number of Catalans fans (including the band dressed in their Catalans tops). If I remember rightly this was the same season that Catalans got to the GF, played the night before.

There were lots of people who weren't obvious rugby fans who were there for the occasion. They had little, if any, interest in the game and were more interested in the passion showed by the visiting supporters than what was happening on the field.

So what does an obvious Rugby fan look like and how do you know if they weren't watching the game and were more interested in watching opposition fans?

[glossop saint]

8 hours ago, bigbaldnmad said:

The crowd was around 9k, with around 800 from West Yorkshire and a significant number of Catalans fans (including the band dressed in their Catalans tops). If I remember rightly this was the same season that Catalans got to the GF, played the night before.

There were lots of people who weren't obvious rugby fans who were there for the occasion. They had little, if any, interest in the game and were more interested in the passion showed by the visiting supporters than what was happening on the field.

 

 

I am interested that you seem to show an element of contempt, or at least you are being dismissive, for people who aren't fans of the sport. With that attitude then how will the sport survive past the existing fans, let alone thrive and prosper. We moan constantly about RU and the people who turn up there without knowing the sport. But it does mean that they get the benefits of having bigger crowds, more money, prime time TV slots etc. We always need new fans even if it is just to replace those who are leaving, be it through old age or because the 'games gone'.