Pacific Championships 2024

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, MatthewWoody said:

I'm referring to the enthusiasm about the Pacific games that you can see from Australia. 

Oh. It's just that you said "But in terms of number of test teams who are competitive, the Aussies are right"

[MatthewWoody]

9 minutes ago, Dave T said:

Oh. It's just that you said "But in terms of number of test teams who are competitive, the Aussies are right"

Sorry. I meant, we're talking about the Aussie press (and I'd add Youtubers etc.) celebrating the Pacific Championship as a renaissance of test rugby league. Here it has been said that due to this year's crowds in the SH having been not so big if compared to previous 4N etc crowds, it's not such a success. What I meant was: ok, maybe so, but still this Pacific Championship concept helped the International scene be more competitive than ever. 

It's a shame England is not included. 

[Odsal Outlaw]

Include England and call it the Commonwealth Cup

[Dave T]

13 hours ago, MatthewWoody said:

Sorry. I meant, we're talking about the Aussie press (and I'd add Youtubers etc.) celebrating the Pacific Championship as a renaissance of test rugby league. Here it has been said that due to this year's crowds in the SH having been not so big if compared to previous 4N etc crowds, it's not such a success. What I meant was: ok, maybe so, but still this Pacific Championship concept helped the International scene be more competitive than ever. 

It's a shame England is not included. 

I disagree with this conclusion. 

It isn't the Pacific Championship that has helped the competitiveness of International RL - the PC has been created to benefit from the competitiveness that has been created in advance of it. 

All the hard work of the 4N, and the previous World Cups has brought these nations to the forefront of international RL, and the NRL has aggressively stepped in and pushed the IRL out of the way and set up their own thing to take advantage of this.

I remember watching Tonga push NZ all the way at Wilderspool 30 years ago, we could see there was something special here that could be harvested if we were smart. Samoa played in front of a huge crowd that year against Wales, Fiji with 26k in at Central Park. That was the start.

2000 was a disaster, but the Pacific Nations were treated as credible teams in there - with some bright sparks, a large crowd in France and Fiji playing England in Leeds for example.

In 2008 the Aussies created the super group concept and put the PN teams back in their box, before they were brought back out in 2013 and given prominence in that World Cup. The likes of Samoa, Tonga, Fiji were treated like kings and were stars of the show. They were clearly a growing force.  Remember alongside this, the Tri Nations was expanded to bring in nations below the traditional big 3. Samoa played in front of 47k versus England in a double header in Brisbane.

2017 WC was the first time the Aussies ever treated the Pacific Nations as serious players in the World Cup. Samoa and particularly Tonga brought out those fans in New Zealand (remember the crowds in Oz were horrible) - Tonga and Fiji made the semi final, Fiji knocking out the Kiwis. 

So when we say that the PC has helped competitiveness, it isn't true - we were already competitive, because these nations had been brought into the RL international scene (often despite the Aussies). 

Just like the crowds had been turning up for years before this tournament, the Pacific teams had been competitive for years before this too. If they weren't the Aussies wouldn't be bothering with any of this. 

[Damien]

33 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I disagree with this conclusion. 

It isn't the Pacific Championship that has helped the competitiveness of International RL - the PC has been created to benefit from the competitiveness that has been created in advance of it. 

All the hard work of the 4N, and the previous World Cups has brought these nations to the forefront of international RL, and the NRL has aggressively stepped in and pushed the IRL out of the way and set up their own thing to take advantage of this.

I remember watching Tonga push NZ all the way at Wilderspool 30 years ago, we could see there was something special here that could be harvested if we were smart. Samoa played in front of a huge crowd that year against Wales, Fiji with 26k in at Central Park. That was the start.

2000 was a disaster, but the Pacific Nations were treated as credible teams in there - with some bright sparks, a large crowd in France and Fiji playing England in Leeds for example.

In 2008 the Aussies created the super group concept and put the PN teams back in their box, before they were brought back out in 2013 and given prominence in that World Cup. The likes of Samoa, Tonga, Fiji were treated like kings and were stars of the show. They were clearly a growing force.  Remember alongside this, the Tri Nations was expanded to bring in nations below the traditional big 3. Samoa played in front of 47k versus England in a double header in Brisbane.

2017 WC was the first time the Aussies ever treated the Pacific Nations as serious players in the World Cup. Samoa and particularly Tonga brought out those fans in New Zealand (remember the crowds in Oz were horrible) - Tonga and Fiji made the semi final, Fiji knocking out the Kiwis. 

So when we say that the PC has helped competitiveness, it isn't true - we were already competitive, because these nations had been brought into the RL international scene (often despite the Aussies). 

Just like the crowds had been turning up for years before this tournament, the Pacific teams had been competitive for years before this too. If they weren't the Aussies wouldn't be bothering with any of this. 

This is all absolutely correct and youve nailed it. The biggest thing the Pacific Championship has done is give regular games. Its a sad state of affairs, and very RL, to refer to 2/3 games a year for 2 years as regular. 

As you say it is though very much just tapping into the competitive teams and demand that was already there for the last decade. Indeed this could, and should, have all been done a decade ago. It even was in the 2000s with the Pacific Cup, long before the defections of Taumalolo and Co and without the calibre of player these teams have now to call on.

[Dave T]

3 minutes ago, Damien said:

This is all absolutely correct and youve nailed it. The biggest thing the Pacific Championship has done is give regular games. Its a sad state of affairs, and very RL, to refer to 2/3 games a year for 2 years as regular. 

As you say it is though very much just tapping into the competitive teams and demand that was already there for the last decade. Indeed this could, and should, have all been done a decade ago. It even was in the 2000s with the Pacific Cup, long before the defections of Taumalolo and Co and without the calibre of player these teams have now to call on.

The biggest challenge for the international game is working with one international window. I know i may seem harsh on the Aussies around all this, but one window is the biggest blocker to international RL doing something really special. No credible international sport can work with one window.

Having a Pacific Cup where one team dips in and out each year is weird, and we really do need two windows. It's why I get frustrated when they try and gaslight us - mid-year tests have delivered big crowds and viewers in the past, yet abandoned.

[The Rocket]

16 hours ago, Dave T said:

Yeah, I stopped at 15 years, but this constant rewriting of history is a real bugbear. It's no more than patting yourself on your back for stuff that others did. And Abdo has been around the NRL for over 10 years, so he should know this stuff.

 

23 hours ago, Damien said:

It just all seems to be about trying to say we've done all this and built something up from scratch, while ignoring what has happened previously and what actions, or inaction, led to where we are.

 

C`mon fellas. lighten up, Abdo`s not interested in giving everyone a history lesson in international Rugby League, he`s only interested in talking this up for the media and the general public and making it seem like it`s the best thing since sliced bread and going to only be bigger and better next year and that the NRL is an unstoppable force in Australasia.

Basically it`s all about the here and now and the hype not he history.

[Dave T]

1 hour ago, The Rocket said:

 

C`mon fellas. lighten up, Abdo`s not interested in giving everyone a history lesson in international Rugby League, he`s only interested in talking this up for the media and the general public and making it seem like it`s the best thing since sliced bread and going to only be bigger and better next year and that the NRL is an unstoppable force in Australasia.

Basically it`s all about the here and now and the hype not he history.

Well, actually - you're wrong. It was Abdo who brought history into this. But not a truthful history - one that he has just invented. And that's the point. 

It's very easy to celebrate this tournament and the sellout final without lying.

[Jonty58]

2 hours ago, Dave T said:

I disagree with this conclusion. 

It isn't the Pacific Championship that has helped the competitiveness of International RL - the PC has been created to benefit from the competitiveness that has been created in advance of it. 

All the hard work of the 4N, and the previous World Cups has brought these nations to the forefront of international RL, and the NRL has aggressively stepped in and pushed the IRL out of the way and set up their own thing to take advantage of this.

I remember watching Tonga push NZ all the way at Wilderspool 30 years ago, we could see there was something special here that could be harvested if we were smart. Samoa played in front of a huge crowd that year against Wales, Fiji with 26k in at Central Park. That was the start.

2000 was a disaster, but the Pacific Nations were treated as credible teams in there - with some bright sparks, a large crowd in France and Fiji playing England in Leeds for example.

In 2008 the Aussies created the super group concept and put the PN teams back in their box, before they were brought back out in 2013 and given prominence in that World Cup. The likes of Samoa, Tonga, Fiji were treated like kings and were stars of the show. They were clearly a growing force.  Remember alongside this, the Tri Nations was expanded to bring in nations below the traditional big 3. Samoa played in front of 47k versus England in a double header in Brisbane.

2017 WC was the first time the Aussies ever treated the Pacific Nations as serious players in the World Cup. Samoa and particularly Tonga brought out those fans in New Zealand (remember the crowds in Oz were horrible) - Tonga and Fiji made the semi final, Fiji knocking out the Kiwis. 

So when we say that the PC has helped competitiveness, it isn't true - we were already competitive, because these nations had been brought into the RL international scene (often despite the Aussies). 

Just like the crowds had been turning up for years before this tournament, the Pacific teams had been competitive for years before this too. If they weren't the Aussies wouldn't be bothering with any of this. 

It’s a shame the Aussies haven’t developed the game the way the Northern Hemisphere has.
They must look at how far France, Wales, Ireland and Scotland not to mention Lebanon and Canada have been brought on and they would be jealous with envy.

If only they could hear the opinions and ideas of the NH fans and on how they could fix things and show them how it’s done up ere.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just joking men.

[MatthewWoody]

It's not that English federation and clubs are helping the test scene and the prospect of a midseason window. 

[Dave T]

13 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

It's not that English federation and clubs are helping the test scene and the prospect of a midseason window. 

What do you mean? 

Over the last 20 years or so the RFL have sent a team to Aus a couple of times, to France, to Denver, they've played Exile games etc. in mid-season.

Let's be honest here, if there was the opportunity for genuine top class rep RL in mid season, the RFL are very likely to support it.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Dave T

[Damien]

Just now, Dave T said:

What do you mean? 

Over the last 20 years or so the RFL have sent a team to Aus a couple of times, to France, to Denver, they've played Exile games etc. 

Let's be honest here, if there was the opportunity for genuine top class rep RL in mid season, the RFL are very likely to support it.

I have no doubt we would send a team anywhere to play Samoa, Tonga, NZ  Fiji or PNG mid season if the NRL allowed players to be released. We've done it whenever the opposition have been allowed to play and would certainly do it again.

[Dave T]

Just now, Damien said:

I have no doubt we would send a team anywhere to play Samoa, Tonga, NZ  Fiji or PNG mid season if the NRL allowed players to be released. We've done it whenever the opposition have been allowed to play and would certainly do it again.

I'll happily criticise the RFL and the UK game for their incompetence (and slightly sympathise that some of this is always linked to being skint) - but I will always defend them around their broad attitude to international RL. I have no doubts that the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else in the sport. THat may not be saying much, but we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward.

[Treizistance]

2 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'll happily criticise the RFL and the UK game for their incompetence (and slightly sympathise that some of this is always linked to being skint) - but I will always defend them around their broad attitude to international RL. I have no doubts that the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else in the sport. THat may not be saying much, but we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward.

You complain of Abdo rewriting history then you come up with some pearlers above...

"I will always defend [RFL] around their broad attitude to international RL"

"the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else"

"we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward."

To confirm, 2025's SuperLeague will solely be around the M62 and 1 team in South of France. France and Wales are less competitive now than when SuperLeague Europe began in 1996, and the league has shrunk it's expansion footprint. The RFL has done sweet FA to promote and sustain expansion and the international game in it's backyard. It has taken 2 proactive clubs, not the RFL, to get SuperLeague on the Vegas card. 

Criticise the NRL all you want regarding historic attitudes to the international game/expansion however since 2019 there is no doubt that the NRL is far more outward looking than the RFL which has become increasingly insular. The Pacific Championships, Vegas, actively looking to establish new teams in PNG and NZ, etc. are tangible examples of this.

 

[Jonty58]

16 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I'll happily criticise the RFL and the UK game for their incompetence (and slightly sympathise that some of this is always linked to being skint) - but I will always defend them around their broad attitude to international RL. I have no doubts that the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else in the sport. THat may not be saying much, but we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward.

The tongue in cheek comment was about what development has gone into building the international game in the Northern Hemisphere, not the willingness to play SH teams.

The Exiles concept looked ridiculous the way it was marketed.

Maybe there are not many players that are born in England that want to be Heritage players?

Edited November 6, 2024 by Jonty58

[Dave T]

29 minutes ago, Treizistance said:

You complain of Abdo rewriting history then you come up with some pearlers above...

"I will always defend [RFL] around their broad attitude to international RL"

"the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else"

"we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward."

To confirm, 2025's SuperLeague will solely be around the M62 and 1 team in South of France. France and Wales are less competitive now than when SuperLeague Europe began in 1996, and the league has shrunk it's expansion footprint. The RFL has done sweet FA to promote and sustain expansion and the international game in it's backyard. It has taken 2 proactive clubs, not the RFL, to get SuperLeague on the Vegas card. 

Criticise the NRL all you want regarding historic attitudes to the international game/expansion however since 2019 there is no doubt that the NRL is far more outward looking than the RFL which has become increasingly insular. The Pacific Championships, Vegas, actively looking to establish new teams in PNG and NZ, etc. are tangible examples of this.

 

cool

[Dave T]

28 minutes ago, Jonty58 said:

The tongue in cheek comment was about what development has gone into building the international game in the Northern Hemisphere, not the willingness to play SH teams.

The Exiles concept looked ridiculous the way it was marketed.

Maybe there are not many players that are born in England that want to be Heritage players?

The problem is really that there is only so much a skint governing body can do really in terms of developing RL in other countries. And I don't believe the NRL should be held accountable for the sport in Tonga for example.

The best model imo is supporting a strong international governing body, both financially and strategically. It shouldn't be down to individual organisations to drive control development of other nations (although they should absolutely support where possible).

I don't believe it is in the RFL's remit to develop NH RL. 

[Click]

41 minutes ago, Treizistance said:

You complain of Abdo rewriting history then you come up with some pearlers above...

"I will always defend [RFL] around their broad attitude to international RL"

"the UK game would prioritise the international game more than anyone else"

"we have actively demonstrated a desire to push the international game forward."

To confirm, 2025's SuperLeague will solely be around the M62 and 1 team in South of France. France and Wales are less competitive now than when SuperLeague Europe began in 1996, and the league has shrunk it's expansion footprint. The RFL has done sweet FA to promote and sustain expansion and the international game in it's backyard. It has taken 2 proactive clubs, not the RFL, to get SuperLeague on the Vegas card. 

Criticise the NRL all you want regarding historic attitudes to the international game/expansion however since 2019 there is no doubt that the NRL is far more outward looking than the RFL which has become increasingly insular. The Pacific Championships, Vegas, actively looking to establish new teams in PNG and NZ, etc. are tangible examples of this.

 

SL's make up has nothing to do with the RFLs attitude to internationals.

And, what new teams have they created?

[Jonty58]

6 minutes ago, Dave T said:

The problem is really that there is only so much a skint governing body can do really in terms of developing RL in other countries. And I don't believe the NRL should be held accountable for the sport in Tonga for example.

The best model imo is supporting a strong international governing body, both financially and strategically. It shouldn't be down to individual organisations to drive control development of other nations (although they should absolutely support where possible).

I don't believe it is in the RFL's remit to develop NH RL. 

The NRL has no responsibility to develop the International game at all but they do in their way.

Englands situation has developed over decades from being nearly on par with the game in Australia to being a poor relation.

Look at the chairman that have been appointed drawing large salaries and doing little or nothing to develop the game.

In some cases almost comedy figures.

Its probably to late to look into the Mirror.

 

 

[MatthewWoody]

4 hours ago, Damien said:

I have no doubt we would send a team anywhere to play Samoa, Tonga, NZ  Fiji or PNG mid season if the NRL allowed players to be released. We've done it whenever the opposition have been allowed to play and would certainly do it again.

But the coach will be able to call up only a limited numer of players from each team

Edited November 6, 2024 by MatthewWoody

[MatthewWoody]

Kangaroos spring selection surprise for Tongan final showdown as Meninga identifies NRL's next superstar

Edited November 6, 2024 by MatthewWoody

[Damien]

44 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

But the coach will be able to call up only a limited numer of players to each team

Not got clue what you are talking about and I suspect its nothing to do with the point of Daves.

Edited November 6, 2024 by Damien

[MatthewWoody]

1 hour ago, Damien said:

Not got clue what you are talking about and I suspect its nothing to do with the point of Daves.

We were talking about England sending a team anywhere possibile midseason against a strong opposition if available. Will clubs impose limits to players' selection? 

I don't buy this idea that Super League would have no problems in England playing down under midseason. I think English clubs are part of the problem. 

Edited November 6, 2024 by MatthewWoody

[Damien]

Just now, MatthewWoody said:

We were talking about England sending a team anywhere possibile midseason against a strong opposition if available. Will clubs impose limits to players' selection? 

The point was the RFL's attitude towards the international game. What clubs do is the least of the worries when the NRL won't allow such games to take place. When they did England travelled all over to play them.

[Dave T]

15 minutes ago, MatthewWoody said:

We were talking about England sending a team anywhere possibile midseason against a strong opposition if available. Will clubs impose limits to players' selection? 

I don't buy this idea that Super League would have no problems in England playing down under midseason. I think English clubs are part of the problem. 

You don't need to buy the idea. We played Samoa in 2017 in the suburbs of Sydney, and 2018 we played the Kiwis in Denver. We all know what happened after that.