Beaumont and you all know he is correct.

[RP London]

20 hours ago, Ainley Top said:

Only worzel has said that the system is designed for a closed shop? I don't think so. 

even those of us are who are labelled "IMG Lovers" have said that we accept that is where it is heading.. we just dont necessarily agree its a bad thing, though almost all those pigeon holed into that camp have reservations about it.. I know I do as someone who supports a team that will be locked out. 

[Barry Badrinath]

2 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Let’s all criticise the game for being too short term but then when a longer term model is introduced let’s all complain about clubs putting in foundations eg blooding younger players; thinking about next season and the one after and in some cases doing some long required ground updates 

Peak rugby league, surprised more fans don't have head injuries with all the knee jerks in the stands

[phiggins]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Hull have been particularly bad yeah, but you seem to suggest, and certainly DB believes, that they are deliberately trying to be so. 

I don't think they are, they've just got it seriously wrong this year and their short term fixes like sacking the coach, recruiting new players and bringing in new investment and a new Rugby Department structure haven't worked.

Don't think the accusation has been about being deliberately bad. It's been about being deliberately cheap. 

[LeeF]

2 minutes ago, phiggins said:

I'll leave it at this. I don't care much for DB's social media posts on the topic, but I also think that it will be very rare that a club wins only 3 games in a season, without several posts on this forum suggesting that they aren't ready to be in Super League, or questions of what they offer. Particularly when that club's previous league positions have been 8th, 9th and 10th.

Add in 11th or 12th and you have a pattern that suggests a serious decline which requires some serious action which they are trying to do 

[Barry Badrinath]

2 minutes ago, Damien said:

And I remember how the IMG haters moaned then about the system being a farce then because of London not trying and using a part time team.

Have london actually been part time this year?  I've heard it alluded to but hadn't seen anything by the club themselves 

[Archie Gordon]

1 hour ago, Worzel said:

This entire argument is predicated on two ridiculous contentions:

1. That it is better for the long-term health of the club and the sport that Hull FC had parachuted in some expensive emergency coach, and bought 2 or 3 players who could have ensured they finished at least 11th with ease, rather than (as they have done) instead worked on future years behind the scenes and blooded some very promising youth players. They had the means to do so, and probably would have ended up way higher than 11th. 

2. That London, an empty husk of a club ...

I agree with 2.

On 1, I think Hull are a club in trouble. I don't think there is much evidence of planning for future years at all. They have simply bailed out this year and they have lost an alarming number of fans in the process. I'm not sure 2025 will be a great deal rosier based on this so-called 'rebuild' this year. 

And if you get a couple of clubs take this option in any given SL season, it devalues the comp. The comparisons with the NRL only work if there are equivalents of Hull and London over there. I don't think there are. There are equivalents of Cas, yes, but notice that Cas have carried their fans with them. Hull have lost thousands.

[phiggins]

12 minutes ago, LeeF said:

Add in 11th or 12th and you have a pattern that suggests a serious decline which requires some serious action which they are trying to do 

The fact that serious decline, or impressive growth isn't a factor in the grading system, is one of a number of issues I have with the grading system.

[Click]

17 minutes ago, Barry Badrinath said:

Have london actually been part time this year?  I've heard it alluded to but hadn't seen anything by the club themselves 

Yes, we have a number of players that are on PT contracts, and a few that are on FT contracts.

It is a hybrid squad. I know from the top of my head Parata and Bienek are both on PT contracts as they have jobs outside of RL.

[Dave T]

14 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

I agree with 2.

On 1, I think Hull are a club in trouble. I don't think there is much evidence of planning for future years at all. They have simply bailed out this year and they have lost an alarming number of fans in the process. I'm not sure 2025 will be a great deal rosier based on this so-called 'rebuild' this year. 

And if you get a couple of clubs take this option in any given SL season, it devalues the comp. The comparisons with the NRL only work if there are equivalents of Hull and London over there. I don't think there are. There are equivalents of Cas, yes, but notice that Cas have carried their fans with them. Hull have lost thousands.

I think this goes back to my point that it's difficult to just go out and sign real quality players. Due to things like the exchange rate and SC in Oz, their average players can earn far more over there, which is a shift from where we have been really. Then the NRL are signing up quality players from SL. Union players are no longer a thing in RL. 

It's harder to fill 12 squads with high quality, and I wouldn't be surprised if we get a few more poor seasons over the next few years.i suppose this is why we need more commercial.income to compete.

I do also fear that Hull won't be much better next year.

[RP London]

35 minutes ago, Worzel said:

Just because Hull have got the balance wrong, doesn't mean that the model hasn't worked. Clearly it would be better for Hull if they'd improved more this season, it would have been better for fan engagement and future commercial strength. I'm sure fans aren't happy with the club, and memberships and sponsorships are harder to sell for Hull FC right now. But given the choice between this and clubs just doing every short term thing they can to "succeed" by finishing 11th, the model we've run for decades and which patently hasn't worked, then I'd pick this. And importantly, this is what the league voted for.

 

short term measures are often much more expensive than the medium and long term measures too, they are also just as unpredictable. You could buy a player with the short term boost in mind to find he breaks his leg in the first game or has a head melt and gets banned for 5 games etc. 

If we want to encourage investment into clubs we need to take some of the short termism away so that the money that does get generated or comes in from a wealthy benefactor can go in the right places. Actually that can be in the youth academy (against one of the arguments here) because you can afford to give it time to bear fruit but when it does it is a relatively cheap way to produce talent steeped in the club and its systems. 

now there is a lot of "if" there I know but this is the way they want to try this and, as you say, we have tried it the other way for long enough without it working and we need to do something different to make a difference (not as catchy as Einstein's quote but that didnt seem to go down too well when i used it last time).

[RP London]

36 minutes ago, phiggins said:

I'll leave it at this. I don't care much for DB's social media posts on the topic, but I also think that it will be very rare that a club wins only 3 games in a season, without several posts on this forum suggesting that they aren't ready to be in Super League, or questions of what they offer. Particularly when that club's previous league positions have been 8th, 9th and 10th.

Dont disagree with this and you can see it in Australia with Gold Coast when they had an awful run etc. I think the key bit is the first bit you say as well, its been exacerbated by someone who is very marmite going off on social media in the way he has.. and at the same time IMG have come in and its this year that the system changes.. perfect storm really. 

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, LeeF said:

The bit in bold is spot on and at the risk of upsetting the “fan club” DB comes across as a bully who when he doesn’t get his own way eg Hull daring to sign one of his better and more high profit players he attacks them without logic or reason 

 

Absolutely, it's all about him. A lot of the two bob millionaires I've had the pleasure of coming into contact with have been like this, thankfully not all!

It would be interesting if Leigh were playing London this weekend.

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, Archie Gordon said:

I agree with 2.

On 1, I think Hull are a club in trouble. I don't think there is much evidence of planning for future years at all. They have simply bailed out this year and they have lost an alarming number of fans in the process. I'm not sure 2025 will be a great deal rosier based on this so-called 'rebuild' this year. 

And if you get a couple of clubs take this option in any given SL season, it devalues the comp. The comparisons with the NRL only work if there are equivalents of Hull and London over there. I don't think there are. There are equivalents of Cas, yes, but notice that Cas have carried their fans with them. Hull have lost thousands.

As much as I've enjoyed Hull's travails this season, and as much as it galls me to say this, but I disagree. Hull are a club with a very solid audience, commercial and talent pathways base. But Pearson is not wealthy enough to support a consistently Top 6 side, which let's face it costs £1m per season. That's their only weakness. But he has now secured new investment, it's just that those investors don't want to spend their money shoring up 2024 and instead are focused beyond that.

It will still take time. The best players don't want to join clubs who aren't Top 6 clubs, so even with their history it will take a few seasons to build a competitive squad. But the club has all the fundamentals, far better fundamentals than almost every other club in the league, and so come back they will.

Enabling clubs like Hull FC to do so, and giving them time to do so, is the whole point of this model.

 

[Dave T]

I would also add, that we are in the middle of an absolutely fascinating battle for playoff spots, and what looks like a great playoff series, DB is focusing on bottom of the table.

We are hearing more about Hull FC than his own club who have a crucial battle that makes or breaks their season on Friday.

[phiggins]

Just now, Dave T said:

I would also add, that we are in the middle of an absolutely fascinating battle for playoff spots, and what looks like a great playoff series, DB is focusing on bottom of the table.

We are hearing more about Hull FC than his own club who have a crucial battle that makes or breaks their season on Friday.

That is a very good point. It's also another reason I think this is more driven by his own fear for Leigh's safety than anything to do with Asiata, Hardaker etc.

As for Leigh's season, frankly, I think the Saints game only dictates whether the season extends for another week, maybe two, such is the gulf in class between the top 3 and the rest.

[JohnM]

Regarding the idea of a closed shop. The original "re- imagining Rugby league " presentation forsees  a 14 team SL. Is it reasonable to think that as Grade B clubs see grade A clubs benefitting, then they too will drive towards  grade A, too? 

It might help to look at the project in the round, and spend less time arguing about each individual grading point.

Edited September 16 by JohnM

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, phiggins said:

That is a very good point. It's also another reason I think this is more driven by his own fear for Leigh's safety than anything to do with Asiata, Hardaker etc.

As for Leigh's season, frankly, I think the Saints game only dictates whether the season extends for another week, maybe two, such is the gulf in class between the top 3 and the rest.

I'm not so sure about that. Leigh beat Wire last time they played a few weeks ago, and the likes of Catalans, Salford and Saints are no mugs. 

One of the things we often see is the 5th or 6th team storming I to the playoffs in great form and having some momentum built up, that isn't the case with the likes of Saints or Catalans this year.

It'll be interesting to see what happens.

[Archie Gordon]

22 minutes ago, Worzel said:

As much as I've enjoyed Hull's travails this season, and as much as it galls me to say this, but I disagree. Hull are a club with a very solid audience, commercial and talent pathways base. But Pearson is not wealthy enough to support a consistently Top 6 side, which let's face it costs £1m per season. That's their only weakness. But he has now secured new investment, it's just that those investors don't want to spend their money shoring up 2024 and instead are focused beyond that.

It will still take time. The best players don't want to join clubs who aren't Top 6 clubs, so even with their history it will take a few seasons to build a competitive squad. But the club has all the fundamentals, far better fundamentals than almost every other club in the league, and so come back they will.

Enabling clubs like Hull FC to do so, and giving them time to do so, is the whole point of this model.

 

I'm broadly onboard with that. Just not convinced that (e.g.) Wakey were harmed by relegation or stopped from building the club up.

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Dave T said:

I would also add, that we are in the middle of an absolutely fascinating battle for playoff spots, and what looks like a great playoff series, DB is focusing on bottom of the table.

We are hearing more about Hull FC than his own club who have a crucial battle that makes or breaks their season on Friday.

It's bizarre, he and some of the Leigh fans seem to be concentrating far too much on what's going on at the bottom rather than the top which they are actually a part of.

They should be begging up a massive game against Saints rather than worrying about Hull and London. Their season is totally in their own hands.

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

More if you want LOL:)

I just responded to the thread:)

He's probably not got many friends Paul !.

[phiggins]

17 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

It's bizarre, he and some of the Leigh fans seem to be concentrating far too much on what's going on at the bottom rather than the top which they are actually a part of.

They should be begging up a massive game against Saints rather than worrying about Hull and London. Their season is totally in their own hands.

At least let us have a few days before we start getting nervous about the next game 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, dkw said:

It's a discussion, not am argument. Do you have the wins that backup that claim? As dewsbury have been bottom almost the entire season and have only won 1 game, which I'm fairly sure wasn't whoever was top.

Yes but the point in question is that Hull FC a Grade A club beat Wigan a Grade A club both in the top 7 RL clubs in the Northern Hemisphere by IMG's reckoning, Dewsbury were ranked 27th in the gradings and only one of 2 clubs in the Championship (the other being Swinton) to be deemed a Grade C whilst all the other Championship clubs are B Grades, a pretty shallow argument, - sorry discussion point.

Edited September 16 by Harry Stottle

[Harry Stottle]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Normal folk see through that, normal Leigh supporters get embarrassed by it from time to time, some inside and outside the club seem desperate to support it...

Off course we do Tommy, in my 60+ years we have been a club mainly in the shadows we still laud beating Leeds in '71 in the CC and winning the Championship in '82, I have said on here previously where I believe Leigh sit in the all time RFL order of merit and it is around 12th spot.

We are having our day in the sunshine and I honestly don't know how long that will last but I am enjoying it while it is here, the club seems to attract much derision from the public and especially on these pages and I am not just talking about Mr Beaumont, when we were in the Championship and lost I think it was 3 league games in two seasons in the seasons pre the Super 8's, the team and the coach were everything that could be bad on these pages, but the coach left and took 12 player's with him to Toronto and they suddenly become the darlings to many posters on here, two faced or what?

What is a normal Leigh supporter, I am intrigued to find out?

[Jill Halfpenny fan]

There's some heroic defence of Hull in this thread.  Pretty ironic eh.

[dkw]

2 hours ago, LeeF said:

Let’s all criticise the game for being too short term but then when a longer term model is introduced let’s all complain about clubs putting in foundations eg blooding younger players; thinking about next season and the one after and in some cases doing some long required ground updates 

Clubs with nothing to play for have blooded youth at the end of seasons for as long as I can remember, even more so when the Challenge cup was more prestigious and it was played with first choice players.