The M62

[JohnM]

6 hours ago, 48C North Stand said:

An issue is perception to the rest of the sporting nation. You can create and fund 50 new teams. But if this results in 47 going to the wall due to a lack of interest or participation or ongoing funding then the perception is likely to continue to be a niche sport in terminal decline. 

RL is a sport with close historical ties to northern working class heavy industry areas. Like the marching brass bands founded by the miners, RL now finds itself a parentless child. If it is to thrive, this link with the past needs to be cherished but relinquished iin order to open up the game to new markets. 

"Like the marching brass band"

There's a sort of lesson here. There may be fewer brass bands in the north than there was but the brass band movement world wide is thriving. Brass bands across the UK take part in in various competitions - county and country - every year and the rivalry is intense.  The European Championships have been won in the past by The Cory Band, and bands from Switzerland etc. the movement is strong in NZ , too.

The top bands pay (some of) their players.l, too.

If the brass band movement can expand from it's northern working man's roots to thrive world wide, surely also can rugby league 

[Coggo]

I agree but this strategy really ought to have been pursued 100 years ago. I suppose we’ve always compared ourselves with union and wanted to be the bigger code nationally, so we have tended to look down on an M62 strategy. Just my view. 

[JT RL]

37 minutes ago, Coggo said:

I agree but this strategy really ought to have been pursued 100 years ago. I suppose we’ve always compared ourselves with union and wanted to be the bigger code nationally, so we have tended to look down on an M62 strategy. Just my view. 

Before BARLA club rugby league was on it’s knees. Since being absorbed into RFL, it’s going back to the same state

[ATLANTISMAN]

55 minutes ago, JohnM said:

"Like the marching brass band"

There's a sort of lesson here. There may be fewer brass bands in the north than there was but the brass band movement world wide is thriving. Brass bands across the UK take part in in various competitions - county and country - every year and the rivalry is intense.  The European Championships have been won in the past by The Cory Band, and bands from Switzerland etc. the movement is strong in NZ , too.

The top bands pay (some of) their players.l, too.b

If the brass band movement can expand from it's northern working man's roots to thrive world wide, surely also can rugby league 

Best brass band ever Chicago  

[M j M]

A heartlands strategy isn't really one which is built upon new clubs. It's an acknowledgement that the easiest people to get to games and to watch on TV are those in places where there are already pro clubs. People who have maybe stopped watching or have never watched - even for those in the latter category there is much more public awareness and likely less resistance to engaging with the sport than in virgin territory.

The game has leaked thousands of fans over the past few decades in the so-called heartlands as it has retreated from a  broad base into just a handful of Super League towns. Oldham have shown that even after years of relative dormancy there remains a residual connection with the sport in towns we had pretty much abandoned.

But another problem with this framing is that none of this is an either/or: it's possible to focus on maximising strength in the heartlands and targetted expansion elsewhere - in rather different context and circumstances this is a strategy AFL followed in the '80s and '90s.

[John m]

There needs to be a grassroots drive from areas within the heartlands into nearby expansion areas i.e. cities&towns that have little to no RL presence.

most obvious areas are South Yorkshire, Manchester, Merseyside, Bolton and central&north lancashire.

areas like north Lincolnshire could also be bridged by hull and goole as well as my favourite expansion city/area Carlisle.

Edited September 27, 2024 by John m

[ATLANTISMAN]

2 hours ago, JT RL said:

Before BARLA club rugby league was on it’s knees. Since being absorbed into RFL, it’s going back to the same state

Totally agree after all the hard work Maurice Oldroyd did

[Stirlin]

2 hours ago, ATLANTISMAN said:

Best brass band ever Chicago  

Yep , shame Terry Kath blew his brains out when drunk , Hendrix admired him among others.

[John m]

Plenty of gaps that need to be filled in within or in close proximity to the heartlands never mind the whole of northern England.

concentrate on these areas first then spill over and target regions in the east&west midlands.

[N2022]

19 hours ago, John m said:

There needs to be a grassroots drive from areas within the heartlands into nearby expansion areas i.e. cities&towns that have little to no RL presence.

most obvious areas are South Yorkshire, Manchester, Merseyside, Bolton and central&north lancashire.

areas like north Lincolnshire could also be bridged by hull and goole as well as my favourite expansion city/area Carlisle.

Yes, I agree with this. These are prime targets for grassroots expansion, as maybe home to people who already do a bit of a drive to watch a pro game occasionally but don't want to do the same journey a couple of times a week for their own / their kids' participation. Maybe the start of a player base and they then spread the word around friends at school, work etc. I don't agree with other posts that suggest these are good locations for new pro set-ups as I feel this would just eat into the fringe support of established clubs. I'd rather someone from Selby continued to go to the occasional game at York, Cas or Hull FC, ideally taking some friends along, than was expected to get behind a Selby team with a crowd of 600. I know some will disagree with this. I just think the potential to grow pro crowds in heartlands is not what some think it is, and smaller crowds suffering even more limited facilities and a lower budget experience is not the way to draw on it.

[N2022]

22 hours ago, JohnM said:

"Like the marching brass band"

There's a sort of lesson here. There may be fewer brass bands in the north than there was but the brass band movement world wide is thriving. Brass bands across the UK take part in in various competitions - county and country - every year and the rivalry is intense.  The European Championships have been won in the past by The Cory Band, and bands from Switzerland etc. the movement is strong in NZ , too.

The top bands pay (some of) their players.l, too.

If the brass band movement can expand from it's northern working man's roots to thrive world wide, surely also can rugby league 

Yes, all that's fine for the amateur game, but the original post was talking about pro clubs, and as you suggest it's extremely rare for anyone to make a decent amount of money, let alone a living, from playing.

[Wilderspoolmemories]

The M62. Is a motorway that connects the west and east of England between Liverpool and Hull.

[Hopie]

The game does concentrate on the M62 corridor, if you ever follow any links to"try rugby league" all the sessions are in the places you expect, even if you wanted to there's nowhere to get involved in most parts of the UK.

[JohnM]

12 hours ago, N2022 said:

Yes, all that's fine for the amateur game, but the original post was talking about pro clubs, and as you suggest it's extremely rare for anyone to make a decent amount of money, let alone a living, from playing.

I understand.    Still, what was a mainly northern thing is now a world-wide movement and there might  be lessons for us to learn.

[Tommygilf]

16 hours ago, N2022 said:

Yes, all that's fine for the amateur game, but the original post was talking about pro clubs, and as you suggest it's extremely rare for anyone to make a decent amount of money, let alone a living, from playing.

I think it would need some sort of rethinking tbh with the semi pro/amateur set up.

Why couldn't a new "amateur" club with junior teams etc have their first team be in a "League 3 North West" alongside other similar clubs?

[Tommygilf]

On 27/09/2024 at 12:42, Harry Stottle said:

As you probably know from my previous comments, I would use and utilise all of the available resources on concentrating on what we have and make the heartlands the best version of what it can be at both professional and all community levels, if we can succeed in doing that then it puts us in a much stronger position both financially and organisationally to venture out in spreading the game as you suggest and also further afield.

What does that actually look like though Harry?

I don't think we can get more people playing 13 a side in the towns they already play in. The likes of Castleford, Dewsbury, Leigh or St Helens are maxxed out in that aspect imo.

[Harry Stottle]

33 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

What does that actually look like though Harry?

I don't think we can get more people playing 13 a side in the towns they already play in. The likes of Castleford, Dewsbury, Leigh or St Helens are maxxed out in that aspect imo.

From someone who was active in the community game for many years, I can speak for Leigh but not the others you mention perhaps people in the community side of the sport in those towns could advise.

But to say Leigh is maxed out couldn't be further from the truth, in the Leigh and district it is a mere shadow of the active player participation numbers it was not all that long ago through both the open age and junior/youth levels.

Is it that the game is just out of vogue these days? and those you mention being towns with the focal point of a pro club where I should imagine there would be more educated with the game and willing to take it up than towns like the ones you mentionin your expansion project.

For you to recognise that towns with a history steeped in the game can not get more people playing the game, I would say to you in how quickly there has been a decline in participation numbers, if it keeps on at the same rate, god forbid it accelerates, then we are in big dodahs, and I strongly suggest that when you reach my age - about 3 generations of players about 15years/generation - there will not much of a game left to watch, that is why I make the statement 'concentrate all available resources in the heartlands and and make the game the best version of itself it can be at professional level and all community levels', it really needs a good dose of looking at Tommy.

[Tommygilf]

20 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

From someone who was active in the community game for many years, I can speak for Leigh but not the others you mention perhaps people in the community side of the sport in those towns could advise.

But to say Leigh is maxed out couldn't be further from the truth, in the Leigh and district it is a mere shadow of the active player participation numbers it was not all that long ago through both the open age and junior/youth levels.

Is it that the game is just out of vogue these days? and those you mention being towns with the focal point of a pro club where I should imagine there would be more educated with the game and willing to take it up than towns like the ones you mentionin your expansion project.

For you to recognise that towns with a history steeped in the game can not get more people playing the game, I would say to you in how quickly there has been a decline in participation numbers, if it keeps on at the same rate, god forbid it accelerates, then we are in big dodahs, and I strongly suggest that when you reach my age - about 3 generations of players about 15years/generation - there will not much of a game left to watch, that is why I make the statement 'concentrate all available resources in the heartlands and and make the game the best version of itself it can be at professional level and all community levels', it really needs a good dose of looking at Tommy.

I absolutely agree these are shadows of what they once were, but back then, what else was RL competing with? Nowadays I don't think there's incredibly that much more we're going to get as other sports and youth entertainment options have encroached onto RL holy land.

The current Leigh and Wakefield etc clubs need more varied opponents, not wishing their were more in Leigh and Wakefield, imo. 

RL needs a bigger footprint, to help it remain relevant in the heartlands. 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Tommygilf

[Gerrumonside ref]

21 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

I absolutely agree these are shadows of what they once were, but back then, what else was RL competing with? Nowadays I don't think there's incredibly that much more we're going to get as other sports and youth entertainment options have encroached onto RL holy land.

The current Leigh and Wakefield etc clubs need more varied opponents, not wishing their were more in Leigh and Wakefield, imo. 

RL needs a bigger footprint, to help it remain relevant in the heartlands. 

Agreed.

I think the expansion debate needs to be split between expansion that is planned and supported by the league like the example we see in the NRL and maybe the NFL too in previous years.

And unplanned expansion like the Toronto Wolfpack where we sought to capitalise on it but were unable to and they were never part of a roadmap.

Too much focus is on what will increase the player pool in the short term.  It’s important, but we could also do with increasing young people’s awareness of the sport through positive engagement with rugby league.

That’s where engaging with people on the borders of what we might loosely term ‘heartlands’  around the corridor of the 62 could be fruitful. Engaging with people young enough to form a lifelong positive image of rugby league through either playing or being a part of touch/tag youth rugby league seems an obvious strategy given the success of ‘flag American Football’ in the last 18 months.

i believe that engagement could build the viewers, attendees, administrators etc of tomorrow.  Not just a player pool.  We don’t have the profile of yesteryear where people nationally would watch and engage with the Challenge Cup final - if missionary work is good enough for the NFL (the most valuable sports league in the world) then it is good enough for rugby league too.

 

 

Edited September 29, 2024 by Gerrumonside ref

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I absolutely agree these are shadows of what they once were, but back then, what else was RL competing with? Nowadays I don't think there's incredibly that much more we're going to get as other sports and youth entertainment options have encroached onto RL holy land.

The current Leigh and Wakefield etc clubs need more varied opponents, not wishing their were more in Leigh and Wakefield, imo. 

RL needs a bigger footprint, to help it remain relevant in the heartlands. 

So how do we furnish those newbie clubs in the bigger footprint if we are struggling with the established areas to get more player's, the same could be said about the established places but clubs getting more involved in a more pro-active way in their areas could be beneficial.

But totally agree that there are more distractions today, and dare I say it that the nature of Rugby League does not gel with the more 'passive' pastimes and hobbies that people want and are pursuing these days.

[N2022]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

So how do we furnish those newbie clubs in the bigger footprint if we are struggling with the established areas to get more player's, the same could be said about the established places but clubs getting more involved in a more pro-active way in their areas could be beneficial.

But totally agree that there are more distractions today, and dare I say it that the nature of Rugby League does not gel with the more 'passive' pastimes and hobbies that people want and are pursuing these days.

Some pastimes are passive, or at least very sedentary, e.g. gaming and watching social media.

There are certain more active pastimes attracting more participants in some areas, but they in turn raise questions of link/televance to RL. Cycling had a huge boom - is that people wanting more flexibility than team sports kick off times offer, though I accept some have set time to go out as group? or a chance to buy and show off tech (see also golf and skiiing in different eras)? or is it the social aspect of cafe stops? Only the last of these in common with RL and even then it's the drink drive issue over post-match pints.

Paddlesports have been a growth area, again more freedom to choose own time, weather and perhaps venue, lifestyle aspect. Indoor climbing?

Are we becoming fairweather? Self-centred and antisocial? More risk of A&E averse? I think most main team sports have had a decline in numbers among men in the UK, (with possible shift in football from 11 a side league football to shorter small sided work kickabouts). If so, player pool potential might be low. Tag festivals maybe a way to grow some engagement but with no guarantee of conversion to club full-contact teams.

Conversely, parents have arguably never had more choice of sport camps and mini sessions in various games for their kids, yet even when we lived in Leeds there was very little evidence of RL being active in that market. Our boys went to a Rhinos camp for 2 days. Great fun but the only thing I remember seeing offered, while tennis, RU, soccer, cricket were everywhere.

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

So how do we furnish those newbie clubs in the bigger footprint if we are struggling with the established areas to get more player's, the same could be said about the established places but clubs getting more involved in a more pro-active way in their areas could be beneficial.

But totally agree that there are more distractions today, and dare I say it that the nature of Rugby League does not gel with the more 'passive' pastimes and hobbies that people want and are pursuing these days.

A new club in Leigh or one in Bolton would face the same issues imo, save for the fact there are already existing amateur teams to cater for their potential players.

As I said earlier though I think this sort of approach would require a real rethink of the whole pyramid of the sport. 

The sport does need to adapt it's offering, in lots of ways I think. It's not the customers fault.

[EggFace]

On 27/09/2024 at 10:31, Tommygilf said:

Shocker perhaps and I promise I'm not trolling, but if we are to go for more of this as a strategy, not implanting clubs in the South of England etc, then I think we need to be bold about what our vision is. I enjoy looking at things from a perspective opposite to what I normally would have, but then trying to make it work. Partly this was prompted by the Lancaster thread, partly also by Goole's inclusion in League 1 next year.

Michael Carter said a few years back that in his opinion RL should be looking to be the number 2 sport in the North of England, but what does that look like in practice? Where does funding and attention go?

For me, I'd almost disregard any town that has a team in already, at least from a central POV. The RFL don't need to be worrying about Dewsbury, Leigh or Hull, they've got existing professional clubs already to do that.

Where do we look at and how do we bring them in then?

Well to take the first point, let's go along the M62 (in its broadest sense perhaps the North of England) and make sure each town has an RL club (at least as an aspiration). Goole is a great example, to look at some others: Brighouse, Stockport, Cleckheaton/Liversedge, Selby, Scunthorpe, Bramley/West Leeds, Bingley, Durham, Harrogate, Scarborough, Bury, Bolton, Blackburn, Burnley, Preston, Manchester, Southport, Blackpool, Otley, Lancaster, Chester, Liverpool, Birkenhead, Carlisle, Darlington, Middlesbrough etc - you get the picture. To be truly strong in the North of England, we need presence in these sorts of places. That's before we look a little further south to Chesterfield, Stoke, Crewe, Nottingham, Derby, Mansfield. One thing about a lot of these teams is that they have had teams in the past, they've just not been sustainable at the level demanded by the sport at the time because we didn't have a level appropriate to them.

That brings me to the second aspect of the above point; how do we include them? This is where I think the entire sport below the fully professional level needs a rethink. I'd go as far to consider "Open" competition way down the pyramid, regionalisation (and an acceptance of open payments at the  regionalised levels). Regionalisation cuts down costs, important given the small following many clubs would have, but being open makes clubs attractive to many not just enthusiasts. The NCL would still be an amateur preserve, but I would accept that there needs to be a level, below Championship/League 1, where clubs that aspire to those upper national levels can compete on a similar basis to them. I've no doubt that like football, there would be transitional aspects within the pyramid with some semi pros, some just expenses, and some amateur.

Thoughts?

I would have Hartlepool and South Shields on that list.

[Tommygilf]

3 minutes ago, EggFace said:

I would have Hartlepool and South Shields on that list.

There's loads mate, Barnsley, Ripon, Sunderland, Scunthorpe, Ilkley. Note a lot of these have relatively decent level RU clubs playing at an appropriate level.

[ATLANTISMAN]

13 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

There's loads mate, Barnsley, Ripon, Sunderland, Scunthorpe, Ilkley. Note a lot of these have relatively decent level RU clubs playing at an appropriate level.

Agree and not forgetting Kent white van man working class county.

IMHO the only place outside the heartlands and South Wales where it would work nowadays (Don't refer back to Kent Invicta transfer fees killed it times have changed)