What’s happening at Cornwall?

[Click]

9 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

Thats true Eddie , it is very small in its regional area. Its been trying to expand for for 100 odd years. If people really wanted RL outside the small region in serious numbers it would have happened by now. 

Whatever you do, don't look at Aus & NZ then. 

[tiffers]

14 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

Thats true Eddie , it is very small in its regional area. Its been trying to expand for for 100 odd years. If people really wanted RL outside the small region in serious numbers it would have happened by now. 

Irn Bru is very regional in its purchasers. It's been trying to expand for 100 odd years. If people in Indonesia wanted it in serious numbers it would of happened by now.

 

The logic is flawed. Success is not determined by audiences alone, but by your ability to appeal to them at the right moment in time amongst a shed load of other factors.

Edited October 11, 2024 by tiffers

[Griff]

14 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

Helps everyone understand where they're supposed to play I suppose. Otherwise it could become terribly confusing.

Why's that?  You're in the league or you're not.  Why are Tiers 1 to 3 to be described as national ?  What's national ?   England ?  Well, no, because we have clubs in Wales and France.  So British ?  Well no, we have teams in France - but not Scotland.  European ?  Maybe.

I think people have lost sight of the fact that clubs need to be financially stable.  Which means that clubs on the geographical edge need to be better financed than clubs in the heartland.  More often than not, it's the opposite.  Which is why clubs like Hemel, Gloucester, Oxford and Skolars are more likely to fail than Hunslet, Oldham or Keighley.

[Griff]

24 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

For example, nobody wants rugby league in East Anglia, and anyone looking to put a club in that area in League One should stop now?

Unless they've a bottomless pit of money, very probably.

[Griff]

48 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

Thats true Eddie , it is very small in its regional area. Its been trying to expand for for 100 odd years. If people really wanted RL outside the small region in serious numbers it would have happened by now. 

Thanks for saying "would have".

[Tommygilf]

22 minutes ago, Griff said:

Why's that?  You're in the league or you're not.  Why are Tiers 1 to 3 to be described as national ?  What's national ?   England ?  Well, no, because we have clubs in Wales and France.  So British ?  Well no, we have teams in France - but not Scotland.  European ?  Maybe.

I think people have lost sight of the fact that clubs need to be financially stable.  Which means that clubs on the geographical edge need to be better financed than clubs in the heartland.  More often than not, it's the opposite.  Which is why clubs like Hemel, Gloucester, Oxford and Skolars are more likely to fail than Hunslet, Oldham or Keighley.

Quite clearly it's British (for the sake of calling Anglo-Welsh or England Plus) - in organisation if nothing else. The French teams are guests administratively for RFL matters.

You are right about finances, to an extent. There are plenty of examples of "heartlands" teams that have gone to the wall too.

However that also shows that there needs to be better planning and organisation of the entire system to best work for the clubs. It's not fair to force the likes of Hunslet into a national league they can't afford as much as it's not fair to use Cornwall or Hemel to add numbers to a league for them spend loads of money unnecessarily on.

[Griff]

Just now, Tommygilf said:

Quite clearly it's British (for the sake of calling Anglo-Welsh or England Plus) - in organisation if nothing else. The French teams are guests administratively for RFL matters.

You are right about finances, to an extent. There are plenty of examples of "heartlands" teams that have gone to the wall too.

However that also shows that there needs to be better planning and organisation of the entire system to best work for the clubs. It's not fair to force the likes of Hunslet into a national league they can't afford as much as it's not fair to use Cornwall or Hemel to add numbers to a league for them spend loads of money unnecessarily on.

I don't disagree with that.   We don't need pins on the map which will disappear in a year or two.  It does nothing for the image of the game.   We need financially stable clubs which are here to stay.

[Agbrigg]

You can all dream as much as you wish, of course you can always start a small token club anywhere, but you'll never build a club like anything like the top dozen clubs in SL. It would even be a serious challenge to even build a club with the support base and general community foot print as say York or Fev. Look at the millions pumped into London and where it is now. 

[Click]

3 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

You can all dream as much as you wish, of course you can always start a small token club anywhere, but you'll never build a club like anything like the top dozen clubs in SL. It would even be a serious challenge to even build a club with the support base and general community foot print as say York or Fev. Look at the millions pumped into London and where it is now. 

You're logic is so flawed it probably isn't worth commenting on.

[Griff]

14 minutes ago, Click said:

You're logic is so flawed it probably isn't worth commenting on.

Au contraire.

It correlates pretty much with reality.

[Gav Wilson]

43 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

You can all dream as much as you wish, of course you can always start a small token club anywhere, but you'll never build a club like anything like the top dozen clubs in SL. It would even be a serious challenge to even build a club with the support base and general community foot print as say York or Fev. Look at the millions pumped into London and where it is now. 

With enough money, you can start a club and build a fanbase literally anywhere. Toronto did it. 

[OriginalMrC]

46 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

You can all dream as much as you wish, of course you can always start a small token club anywhere, but you'll never build a club like anything like the top dozen clubs in SL. It would even be a serious challenge to even build a club with the support base and general community foot print as say York or Fev. Look at the millions pumped into London and where it is now. 

London have been done on the cheap. Proper money thrown at it and Broncos would be a successful and established SL club (see Melbourne storm)

[Agbrigg]

7 minutes ago, OriginalMrC said:

London have been done on the cheap. Proper money thrown at it and Broncos would be a successful and established SL club (see Melbourne storm)

Whats proper money ? many in the know have said 20 Million, that pretty big in UK RL terms.

[Agbrigg]

12 minutes ago, Gav Wilson said:

With enough money, you can start a club and build a fanbase literally anywhere. Toronto did it. 

How are Toronto doing these days ?

[Agbrigg]

57 minutes ago, Click said:

You're logic is so flawed it probably isn't worth commenting on.

Whats your logic based on, please tell me when we will have a SL team in the UK outside the heartlands.

Look dont get me wrong, I wish all of you well trying to expand the game and really hope you achieve real success. However I see things differently, thats just the way it is.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Agbrigg

[tiffers]

Foundation Years of existing clubs:

2000 to present:

Cornwall, Cru, York, Catalan

1980 to 1999

Newcastle, Midlands, Sheffield, London

1940 to 1979

Doncaster, Whitehaven, Workington

1900 - 1939

Toulouse, Featherstone

1860 - 1899

Cas, Widnes, Hunslet, Hull KR, Batley, Leigh, Keighley, Warrington, Oldham, Dewsbury, Barrow, Halifax, St's, Salford, Wakefield, Wigan, Rochdale, Hudds, Swinton, Hull, Leeds, Bradford.

 

Now there's two ways of looking at this... most of the bigger clubs are the traditional clubs from the 1800's. BUT

If we could expand and grow new clubs in Cumbria  in the late fourties early fifties, then what happened there and at that time?

What's happened at Catalan in particular to make it so successful vs. others.

One thing that is heartening at least is that there is a steady flow of clubs (still going) that have entered the professional ranks in very different eras. Of course we all wish it was more, but let's bust some myths here that you can only be a success if you were founded in Lancashire in 1875.

[Gav Wilson]

13 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

How are Toronto doing these days ?

How is that relevant?

[Wakefield Ram]

2 hours ago, Griff said:

I don't disagree with that.   We don't need pins on the map which will disappear in a year or two.  It does nothing for the image of the game.   We need financially stable clubs which are here to stay.

So not Halifax, Whitehaven etc...

[Griff]

5 minutes ago, Wakefield Ram said:

So not Halifax, Whitehaven etc...

Some muggins will come along and keep them going.  Either through the existing company or a phoenix company.

Which doesn't happen in places like Gloucester, Oxford, Hemel or Skolars.

[Barley Mow]

18 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Foundation Years of existing clubs:

2000 to present:

Cornwall, Cru, York, Catalan

1980 to 1999

Newcastle, Midlands, Sheffield, London

1940 to 1979

Doncaster, Whitehaven, Workington

1900 - 1939

Toulouse, Featherstone

1860 - 1899

Cas, Widnes, Hunslet, Hull KR, Batley, Leigh, Keighley, Warrington, Oldham, Dewsbury, Barrow, Halifax, St's, Salford, Wakefield, Wigan, Rochdale, Hudds, Swinton, Hull, Leeds, Bradford.

 

Now there's two ways of looking at this... most of the bigger clubs are the traditional clubs from the 1800's. BUT

If we could expand and grow new clubs in Cumbria  in the late fourties early fifties, then what happened there and at that time?

What's happened at Catalan in particular to make it so successful vs. others.

One thing that is heartening at least is that there is a steady flow of clubs (still going) that have entered the professional ranks in very different eras. Of course we all wish it was more, but let's bust some myths here that you can only be a success if you were founded in Lancashire in 1875.

What Catalans had was a history dating back to 1934 in France's Rugby League heartland - they weren't a new club started from scratch but a merger of existing clubs which subsequently joined the British system. They had existing support in an area with  rugby league heritage.

There's also inconsistency in your categorisation of some other clubs - You put Hunslet and Bradford in your pre-1900 category (ie the original founding) but York in post 2000. If you're using the original clubs, York should be pre-1900.

Bradford Northern (rather than Bradford FC - who changed codes to association football in 1907) were incidentally founded in 1908 rather than pre-1900.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Barley Mow

[Agbrigg]

10 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Foundation Years of existing clubs:

2000 to present:

Cornwall, Cru, York, Catalan

1980 to 1999

Newcastle, Midlands, Sheffield, London

1940 to 1979

Doncaster, Whitehaven, Workington

1900 - 1939

Toulouse, Featherstone

1860 - 1899

Cas, Widnes, Hunslet, Hull KR, Batley, Leigh, Keighley, Warrington, Oldham, Dewsbury, Barrow, Halifax, St's, Salford, Wakefield, Wigan, Rochdale, Hudds, Swinton, Hull, Leeds, Bradford.

 

Now there's two ways of looking at this... most of the bigger clubs are the traditional clubs from the 1800's. BUT

If we could expand and grow new clubs in Cumbria  in the late fourties early fifties, then what happened there and at that time?

What's happened at Catalan in particular to make it so successful vs. others.

One thing that is heartening at least is that there is a steady flow of clubs (still going) that have entered the professional ranks in very different eras. Of course we all wish it was more, but let's bust some myths here that you can only be a success if you were founded in Lancashire in 1875.

IF you have got time, add the clubs founded after 1899 that no longer exist, they greatly out number the ones still going. Some of the pre 1899 clubs are barely hanging on too, so things are not that rosey there either. Expanding and sustaining clubs is extremely difficult, I dont know the answer, I wish I did.  However what I do know is that the existing heartland clubs are not responsible for killing expansion and when clubs fail many people seem to turn on these clubs as the main  reason for failing. Either that or lack of money which dosn't exist in the amounts people think.

[Griff]

17 minutes ago, tiffers said:

Foundation Years of existing clubs:

2000 to present:

Cornwall, Cru, York, Catalan

1980 to 1999

Newcastle, Midlands, Sheffield, London

1940 to 1979

Doncaster, Whitehaven, Workington

1900 - 1939

Toulouse, Featherstone

1860 - 1899

Cas, Widnes, Hunslet, Hull KR, Batley, Leigh, Keighley, Warrington, Oldham, Dewsbury, Barrow, Halifax, St's, Salford, Wakefield, Wigan, Rochdale, Hudds, Swinton, Hull, Leeds, Bradford.

 

Cas 1926.   Whitehaven 2010.  And there's some debate to be had about Newcastle,  York, Midlands and Hunslet, amongst others.

[gingerjon]

40 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

How are Toronto doing these days ?

About as well as Springfield Borough 

[JonM]

7 minutes ago, Griff said:

Cas 1926.   Whitehaven 2010.  And there's some debate to be had about Newcastle,  York, Midlands and Hunslet, amongst others.

Coaches come and go. Players come and go. Grounds come and go. Directors come and go. Legal details of the members club or company that operates the team come and go. The only constant is the fans. So on that basis, Hunslet/New Hunslet are the 1883 formation, York go back to 1868, Newcastle to 1999, Whitehaven to 1948, Sheffield Eagles to 1984 and so on.

[Griff]

2 minutes ago, JonM said:

Coaches come and go. Players come and go. Grounds come and go. Directors come and go. Legal details of the members club or company that operates the team come and go. The only constant is the fans. So on that basis, Hunslet/New Hunslet are the 1883 formation, York go back to 1868, Newcastle to 1999, Whitehaven to 1948, Sheffield Eagles to 1984 and so on.

I'd agree with those - except Gateshead/Newcastle.  But the fella did say founding dates of existing clubs - a phrase which is obviously open to interpretation.

However, there was a time when New Hunslet were keen to distance themselves from Hunslet.  York City Knights were also keen to make sure that they were not associated with the financial disaster which was York Wasps, who had left behind a trail of debt.  They even went so far as to change their colours to a two-tone blue, which never looked right to me.

Edited October 11, 2024 by Griff