Hull FC bought by Multi-Millionaire partnership

[Damien]

18 minutes ago, MZH said:

Our own purpose built stadium is the dream, but even if it does happen that's one for a few years down the line. Obviously a few star signings wouldn't go amiss but there's only so much you can do with the cap.

I'd be happy for now to see proper investment in training facilities and back room staff. The club have scrimped horribly off the field recently in things like S&C and Physios. There is already evidence of that improving this year with a few really good appointments, so more of that please.

I was going to say this. All of the off field spend and setup is what really differentiates the top clubs and the rest. It's that where investment is really needed to catch up.

[Worzel]

36 minutes ago, M j M said:

Not sure how Simon Moran is doing, he's not made the Sunday Times Rich List recently. Mike Coleman doesn't make these lists being based in Singapore so hard to work out how much money is behind Saints.

Of the rest the ones who make the Rich lists:

From 2024 Sunday Times Rich List:

Mike Danson (Wigan) £1,349m
Paul Caddick (Leeds) £530m
Andrew Thirkill/David Hood (Hull FC) combined £500m

 

From 2023 Yorkshire Rich List:

Matt Ellis (Wakefield) £160m
Ken Davy (Huddersfield) £85m

 

There's only so much money you can spend in rugby league though, so having "enough" is "enough".

For example last time I looked at his firm's accounts Neil Hudgell was making about £2m a year, and was probably spending half of that on Rovers. To be honest I'll take a local boy done good prepared to spend half his income on a team he stood on the terraces watching over Mike Danson every day of the week if you made me choose (not that it's not great what Danson is doing). 

[dkw]

Excellent news, it was obvious Pearson had seen his time out, he either couldn't or wouldn't be able to continue financing them. 

Seeing both Hull teams competing at the top would be great, both clubs can fill stadiums.

 

[Worzel]

For anyone interested, there's a Hull FC fans' forum going on at the moment with Pearson, Myler, Cartwright and Thirkhill all in attendance. Live feed from the local rag here...

https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/hull-fc-forum-live-thirkill-9713297

[Padge]

2 minutes ago, Old Frightful said:

Interesting question.

The KC stadium (now the MKM) was built by Hull City Council to be used by both Hull City and Hull FC. At that time, the SMC (Stadium Management Company) was set up by the council to be run by both clubs for the next 25 years at a cost of £50k per club. The fly by nights that were in charge of Hull FC at the time decided they weren't going to be round long enough to make it worth their while to stump up the £50k, leaving whoever owned the football club exclusive rights to do as they pleased with the stadium. Hull FC have suffered ever since and most of the football club's fans consider it "their" stadium that they let the rugby club use once in a while.

Although I would love us to have our own stadium, that SMC lease is due for renewal in 2027 I believe, and I would hope that Hull FC can be rightfully installed as 50% owners of the SMC.

The stadium was built with the money of the Kingston Communications sell off money to be enjoyed by the citizens of Hull, not for the Football club owners to abuse their power, so it's intention was for it to be used all year round. 

If Hull FC were to pull out, the council would then have an empty stadium for the duration of the football off season, so I think Hull FC have some serious thinking to do to they keep the city council on their side.

The stadium at Wigan was in ownership of an independent though majority share held by a Dave Whelan Company with a minority share of WIgan Council.

The soccer club never owned it and had to pay rental, as did Wigan Rugby for its use.

When Whelan had had enough and needed to offload a soccer club with no real value he transferred hisshares from Whelco (Stadium Company) to Latics so they had an asset to sell. That set in place a chain of events where Latics presumed they had the upper hand and could tell the Rugby Club what to do and basically rip them off by taking all match day bar and food concession takings.

Hence Lenagan opened his own bar facilities next door for pre and post match entertainment.

Danson is now in the process of going back to a stadium company with both clubs paying rent and the stadium having to be a stand alone business.

Whelan never seriously made a go of the Stadium, it has a lot of facilities that most of the time go under used and a lot of the times it is used it as by a shareholder who are probably using their rights to an amount of free use.

Most modern Stadiums, Warrington, Saints are examples have independent stadium companies. This set up protects one from the mismanagement of the other.

 

[The Hallucinating Goose]

Excellent news, really happy to see this! It seemed for quite a few years now that our club has stalled in its evolution and go forward. We've had no ambition to grow the club either on or off the field and it will be great to see new plans put in place and new ideas brought in which will hopefully help to grow the club for the first time in decades.

[overtheborder]

Seems like a great outcome for all involved with the club, really happy for the fans who have stuck with club in recent times. Any club coming back strong is great for RL in general too (and if Hull KR keep up their recent improvement there could be some cracking Hull derbies in years to come).

[Exiled Wiganer]

15 hours ago, The 4 of Us said:

If their arms were longer they’d find more at the bottom of their pockets! 
 

Makes you wonder though if this would have happened without SL/RFL involvement with another organisation who’s letters I won’t spell so as not to derail the thread! 

If so, the intern deserves to get the new Call of Duty 6 as a reward. 

[EggFace]

22 hours ago, Worzel said:

Think this is a really good point. British multi-millionaires now don't get to play with football clubs, but you can have a huge impact on a rugby league team with less than £2m per season. 

We just need to find one who lives in London!

I'm winning the £127 Million Euro this Friday so I be helping out the 3 teams in Cumbria.

[Agbrigg]

20 hours ago, Padge said:

 

Most modern Stadiums, Warrington, Saints are examples have independent stadium companies. This set up protects one from the mismanagement of the other.

 

For years I looked at other SL clubs with envy playing in their brand new stadia. Things now seemed to have come full circle. Clubs sharing with soccer wanting to quit as they realise this is far from ideal. Belle Vue is a dump but work in progress to sort it out. However surely the stadium being 100% owned by the club , with no other tenants or stadium companies involved is by far the best business model.

[Worzel]

22 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

For years I looked at other SL clubs with envy playing in their brand new stadia. Things now seemed to have come full circle. Clubs sharing with soccer wanting to quit as they realise this is far from ideal. Belle Vue is a dump but work in progress to sort it out. However surely the stadium being 100% owned by the club , with no other tenants or stadium companies involved is by far the best business model.

Yes, owning your own ground is key to the long-term stability of a club

Rugby Union's community game has known this for a century. Having their own facility with clubhouse and revenue streams was key to their survival in their communities. It's no different when you scale it up to the professional game.

[sweaty craiq]

39 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

For years I looked at other SL clubs with envy playing in their brand new stadia. Things now seemed to have come full circle. Clubs sharing with soccer wanting to quit as they realise this is far from ideal. Belle Vue is a dump but work in progress to sort it out. However surely the stadium being 100% owned by the club , with no other tenants or stadium companies involved is by far the best business model.

No it’s not unless you can utilise it fully.

[JonM]

54 minutes ago, Worzel said:

Yes, owning your own ground is key to the long-term stability of a club

Rugby Union's community game has known this for a century. Having their own facility with clubhouse and revenue streams was key to their survival in their communities. It's no different when you scale it up to the professional game.

Manchester City (currently playing at a local owned ground), AC Milan & Inter (currently playing at a local council owned ground), FC Barcelona (currently playing at a local council owned ground while their own is being fixed up), Denver Broncos, San Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs and many other NFL teams (you got the picture by now) might all disagree on this. How many NRL (or Top 14) clubs own their own home ground?

Edited November 14, 2024 by JonM

[Forever Trinity]

22 hours ago, M j M said:

Not sure how Simon Moran is doing, he's not made the Sunday Times Rich List recently. Mike Coleman doesn't make these lists being based in Singapore so hard to work out how much money is behind Saints.

Of the rest the ones who make the Rich lists:

From 2024 Sunday Times Rich List:

Mike Danson (Wigan) £1,349m
Paul Caddick (Leeds) £530m
Andrew Thirkill/David Hood (Hull FC) combined £500m

 

From 2023 Yorkshire Rich List:

Matt Ellis (Wakefield) £160m
Ken Davy (Huddersfield) £85m

 

It's not just Matt Ellis at Wakefield his mum and dad are involved both investing expertise.

[Agbrigg]

1 hour ago, sweaty craiq said:

No it’s not unless you can utilise it fully.

Not sure about other clubs but Wakey already have loads going on outside match days. 

[Agbrigg]

5 minutes ago, Forever Trinity said:

It's not just Matt Ellis at Wakefield his mum and dad are involved both investing expertise.

Yes and both extremely wealthy in their own right

[Damien]

40 minutes ago, JonM said:

Manchester City (currently playing at a local owned ground), AC Milan & Inter (currently playing at a local council owned ground), FC Barcelona (currently playing at a local council owned ground while their own is being fixed up), Denver Broncos, San Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs and many other NFL teams (you got the picture by now) might all disagree on this. How many NRL (or Top 14) clubs own their own home ground?

Man City basically run the show and may as well own the ground in terms of what they can do with it. AC Milan and Inter both want their own ground and have spent years trying to develop one. Barcelona are building theirs.

Either way I'm not sure that clubs which turn over hundreds of millions in revenue disprove Worzel's very valid point when it comes to Rugby clubs.

Edited November 14, 2024 by Damien

[JonM]

19 minutes ago, Damien said:

Either way I'm not sure that clubs which turn over hundreds of millions in revenue disprove Worzel's very valid point when it comes to Rugby clubs.

Well, as per my last sentence, Cronulla and Dolphins are AFAIK, the only NRL teams to own their own ground and both of them sometimes play home games elsewhere. The other 15 NRL clubs seem to do ok. Likewise if you assume the French Top 14 is the world's biggest union comp, most of the clubs in that do not own their own stadium. 

Edited November 14, 2024 by JonM

[Damien]

2 minutes ago, JonM said:

Well, as per my last sentence, Cronulla and Dolphins are AFAIK, the only NRL teams to own their own ground and both of them sometimes play home games elsewhere. The other 15 NRL clubs seem to do ok. Likewise if you assume the French Top 14 is the world's biggest union comp, most of the clubs in that do not own their own stadium. 

Almost like different countries have completely different setups. There's clearly vast differences between France and the UK in terms of Maire funding and support and what clubs can and can't do with those grounds. I don't know about Australia but when clubs like Souths are paid just to play in stadiums, just so they get used, then it's clearly different.

Regardless it seems a pointless comparison when we are talking about Rugby clubs in England and the point made by Worzel. As Worzel said the whole revenue stream from the clubhouse is what keeps community clubs going, the one I am most familiar with turns over close to 200k from theirs and that funds practically everything. Just losing games due to bad weather or no shows has a huge impact. At professional level clubs that own their own stadiums generate more and are the wealthiest, I know from being a Wigan fan how much being a tenant can restrict income and growth.

[Worzel]

1 hour ago, JonM said:

Manchester City (currently playing at a local owned ground), AC Milan & Inter (currently playing at a local council owned ground), FC Barcelona (currently playing at a local council owned ground while their own is being fixed up), Denver Broncos, San Francisco 49ers, Kansas City Chiefs and many other NFL teams (you got the picture by now) might all disagree on this. How many NRL (or Top 14) clubs own their own home ground?

You're talking about clubs in market-leading sports, who don't need to squeeze every bit of discretionary revenue out of their assets to survive. Indeed, many of whom are so important in their local markets that they have sweetheart deals where they get all the income plus subsidies, in order to use stadium assets in their locations. Much as NRL clubs are able to negotiate in Sydney and elsewhere, where frankly local government is throwing money at clubs.

Rugby League in England is in no such position. The clubs are SMEs living hand-to-mouth, and having control of an asset gives them 1) far more security over their long-term cost base in any bad periods, and 2) far more ability to monetise their organisation to the fullest extent. Hull FC are at a commercial disadvantage to Hull KR in that regard, for example, despite having access to a far "better" facility. 

[daz39]

On 13/11/2024 at 16:48, Old Frightful said:

Bloody marvellous!

£££££££££££££........

Careful, you sound like a Salford fan in 2013, look how that ended up

[Exiled Wiganer]

3 hours ago, Agbrigg said:

For years I looked at other SL clubs with envy playing in their brand new stadia. Things now seemed to have come full circle. Clubs sharing with soccer wanting to quit as they realise this is far from ideal. Belle Vue is a dump but work in progress to sort it out. However surely the stadium being 100% owned by the club , with no other tenants or stadium companies involved is by far the best business model.

“Work in progress” - I hope my (unborn as yet) grandchildren are around to see Belle Vue meeting the Framing the Future targets. 

[Exiled Wiganer]

My all time off the top of my head favourite Hull FC team: 

Kemble Eastwood Schofield Leuluai Horne (if he’s good enough for GB on the wing…) Topliss Sterling

Skerrett Swain Crooks Crane Knocker Smith 

They have had so many greats. 

[Agbrigg]

10 minutes ago, Exiled Wiganer said:

“Work in progress” - I hope my (unborn as yet) grandchildren are around to see Belle Vue meeting the Framing the Future targets. 

Why not visit this season , you may be surprised at the progress made

[JonM]

59 minutes ago, Worzel said:

The clubs are SMEs living hand-to-mouth, and having control of an asset gives them 1) far more security over their long-term cost base in any bad periods, and 2) far more ability to monetise their organisation to the fullest extent. Hull FC are at a commercial disadvantage to Hull KR in that regard, for example, despite having access to a far "better" facility. 

I don't disagree - clearly owning an asset worth millions of pounds is better than not owning such an asset. Equally, that has led our clubs being vulnerable to owners seeking to buy a loss-making business for not very much and then sell the stadium - see Swinton and quite a few others). I'm rather glad that Widnes have a stadium owned by the council for the long-term benefit of the club rather than it having being used as a way to launder money by one of our previous owners, for example, as happened at some nearby local soccer clubs.

There is no example of a British pro RL club which didn't own a stadium which now does own one - you could perhaps make the case for Trinity & Bradford being such, but it would be stretching a point. If the new owners of Hull FC want to spend £20million on the club, I would not think that building a new stadium would give much of a return on investment relative to other ways of spending it, particularly in a city that would have two other stadia capable of hosting non-sports events.  I think it's 'control' rather than ownership which is important here.