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Page XIII: How to include women’s game in IMG gradings

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Rugby League World

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THERE we have it. The IMG scores are out and the 12 teams competing in Super League 2025 are confirmed. There were few surprises, with...

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
On 11/12/2024 at 09:37, Rugby League World said:

THERE we have it. The IMG scores are out and the 12 teams competing in Super League 2025 are confirmed. There were few surprises, with...

View the full article

The article:

"If running a successful women’s team is not going to have any bearing on a club’s ultimate success in the eyes of IMG, what’s to stop them pulling the plug completely and using the resources saved there to earn extra points elsewhere?"

The IMG grading handbook:

"Minimum standards will be in place alongside the grading criteria. These will include, for example, the requirement for adherence to insolvency regulations and UKAD regulations and, in the future, the requirement for Category A clubs to run a women’s team."

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Hopie

Hopie

Posted
Posted
6 hours ago, gingerjon said:

The article:

"If running a successful women’s team is not going to have any bearing on a club’s ultimate success in the eyes of IMG, what’s to stop them pulling the plug completely and using the resources saved there to earn extra points elsewhere?"

The IMG grading handbook:

"Minimum standards will be in place alongside the grading criteria. These will include, for example, the requirement for adherence to insolvency regulations and UKAD regulations and, in the future, the requirement for Category A clubs to run a women’s team."

So no requirement at present nor a timeline for when it will affect grading letters (but not scores so at present no effect at all). 

I'm not convinced a women's team should be a requirement, but there are obvious benefits to community and fandom by having one.

The Blues Ox

The Blues Ox

Posted
Posted

Didn't they change the gradings regarding a womens team and it was removed? I can't fully remember but Warrington were close to sacking off their womens team this off season but maybe that is one of the reasons they kept it.

sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted

I think it's a insult to the women's game to use the existence of a women's team to grade the mens team. The women's game should stand on its own.

Imagine if FIFA were to announce that the men's national team ranking is partly down to how the women do.

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gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
13 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

Didn't they change the gradings regarding a womens team and it was removed? I can't fully remember but Warrington were close to sacking off their womens team this off season but maybe that is one of the reasons they kept it.

You could be right.

My personal view is that it's right that running a women's team is a minimum standard and covered accordingly, but it would be wrong to have the on-field success of the women's team be a metric for which division the men's side play in.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Tommygilf

Tommygilf

Posted
Posted
On 13/12/2024 at 20:39, sam4731 said:

I think it's a insult to the women's game to use the existence of a women's team to grade the mens team. The women's game should stand on its own.

Imagine if FIFA were to announce that the men's national team ranking is partly down to how the women do.

It's grading the club, not just the team.

sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
37 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It's grading the club, not just the team.

But what other outcomes of the grading are there apart from what division the mens team are in?

Exiled Wiganer

Exiled Wiganer

Posted
Posted

As Salford are showing, he can’t even assess whether the men can field a team, so I would have thought that this would be a step too far for the lad. Never fear, there’s always social meejia hits to be assessed! What more could we want?

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
On 13/12/2024 at 20:39, sam4731 said:

I think it's a insult to the women's game to use the existence of a women's team to grade the mens team. The women's game should stand on its own.

Imagine if FIFA were to announce that the men's national team ranking is partly down to how the women do.

I agree with this.  Whether we say the club is being graded or not, the singular outcome of the process is to determine if the men's side has a place in the top division or not.

Apart from using the women's game in what is essentially a selection process for the men's game, it will also have the outcome that the top teams in the women's game will continue to coalesce around the top clubs in the men's game.

It may be an inevitable outcome that the top clubs will have the best men's and women's sides but does it have to be?

We could have seen a whole different make up of the women's game with potentially different towns or regions coming to the fore.  But it is Wigan, Saints, Leeds et al now and probably forever.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

JohnM

JohnM

Posted
Posted (edited)

Whilst the "outcome" of the grading process might be to determine which division the mens team will play in, think of it as a route map to the top division, a sort of Pilgrim's Progress, where clubs begin "a journey from the City of Destruction to the Celestial City as the ultimate enemy tries everything in his power to distract him from his destination."

Edited by JohnM
sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
56 minutes ago, JohnM said:

Whilst the "outcome" of the grading process might be to determine which division the mens team will play in, think of it as a route map to the top division, a sort of Pilgrim's Progress, where clubs begin "a journey from the City of Destruction to the Celestial City as the ultimate enemy tries everything in his power to distract him from his destination."

I stopped understanding this at 'division'.

sweaty craiq

sweaty craiq

Posted
Posted

In times of economic uncertainty it’s vital the Women’s game is self funding which it clearly isn’t unless you tag onto a big University and/or get big sponsorship/tv deal. Let the sport grow from its routes in community clubs and develop as finance allows. We are fortunate at Leigh in so far as the owners family are passionate about it and are prepared to put in financially, but it’s seems to be an organic growth with investment in coaches, facilities  and medical support

gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Dunbar said:

It may be an inevitable outcome that the top clubs will have the best men's and women's sides but does it have to be?

It's a sign of how small we are - geographically in one sense, playing opportunities in another - that, yes, it pretty much is inevitable.

You see the same, mostly, in RU and cricket. The slight variations in soccer, and they are slight, are because the scope is a bit broader. But the top tiers are starting to look more like the top tiers of men's soccer as independents (Durham) and quirks (Lewes) struggle. The only real exception is London City Lionesses and they aren't really replicable.

Interestingly (ish), it's not the same in a lot of European sports.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

It's a sign of how small we are - geographically in one sense, playing opportunities in another - that, yes, it pretty much is inevitable.

You see the same, mostly, in RU and cricket. The slight variations in soccer, and they are slight, are because the scope is a bit broader. But the top tiers are starting to look more like the top tiers of men's soccer as independents (Durham) and quirks (Lewes) struggle. The only real exception is London City Lionesses and they aren't really replicable.

Interestingly (ish), it's not the same in a lot of European sports.

I am interested in why you think it is inevitable across sports in the UK but not in European sports?

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

sweaty craiq

sweaty craiq

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dunbar said:

I am interested in why you think it is inevitable across sports in the UK but not in European sports?

Franz in Berlin has a choice of team sports to participate in and watch, he has soccer, soccer and soccer. Benny in Bolton has Soccer, RU, RL, Cricket and that’s before attractions like darts, and less so ice hockey, basketball etc  which also apply to Franz but that explains why those are bigger in Europe.

Dunbar

Dunbar

Posted
Posted
4 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Franz in Berlin has a choice of team sports to participate in and watch, he has soccer, soccer and soccer. Benny in Bolton has Soccer, RU, RL, Cricket and that’s before attractions like darts, and less so ice hockey, basketball etc  which also apply to Franz but that explains why those are bigger in Europe.

I mean even a cursory Google search shows this is not true.

"The history of the world is the history of the triumph of the heartless over the mindless." — Sir Humphrey Appleby.

"If someone doesn't value evidence, what evidence are you going to provide to prove that they should value it? If someone doesn't value logic, what logical argument could you provide to show the importance of logic?" — Sam Harris

gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
8 minutes ago, Dunbar said:

I am interested in why you think it is inevitable across sports in the UK but not in European sports?

I think it's inevitable, and is happening, in football across Europe. But sports which had a rooted female participation like volleyball, handball and basketball seem to usually have distinct men's and women's clubs, even within their sporting club culture. If they were starting now, I don't know how they would develop.

It is inevitable in the UK because it's already happened and the process will not change.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
Just now, Dunbar said:

I mean even a cursory Google search shows this is not true.

Yes, but if he'd checked he wouldn't have been to get a little xenophobic joke in.

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Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

gingerjon

gingerjon

Posted
Posted
15 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Think you’ve just proved my point, average comp gates in 2024 worse than Hudds gates

What is?

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life. (Terry Pratchett)

sam4731

sam4731

Posted
Posted
50 minutes ago, sweaty craiq said:

Think you’ve just proved my point, average comp gates in 2024 worse than Hudds gates, Berlin getting 3k or so after the season launch give away. It’s a bit like saying fishing is the largest participation sport in UK - no crowds on the banks though

Basketball gets about 10,000

Ice Hockey about 13,000

Handball is about 8,000

Last year Huddersfield averaged 4,500

sweaty craiq

sweaty craiq

Posted
Posted
43 minutes ago, sam4731 said:

Basketball gets about 10,000

Ice Hockey about 13,000

Handball is about 8,000

Last year Huddersfield averaged 4,500

Handball averaged about 3000 in Germany 23/24 season Ice hockey and basket ball do seem well attended but Basketball seems to be part of the Sporting Club set up of many Soccer clubs in Europe 

is that the way for RL to become eg Mann Utd RL club etc?

 

 

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