Shocking that our sport has no pro club in Manchester

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

On 16/03/2025 at 10:15, Eddie said:

Wouldn’t you describe having your car stolen and being threatened and abused as hounding out? https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/rugby-league/swinton-chairman-lifts-lid-abuse-20065313.amp

This interview a few years ago with Andy explained the Swinton exit.

As Joe 90 said I think he and his colleagues felt they had done as much as they could with Swinton as Swinton at the time and it looked like it was either rebrand or wave goodbye and they chose the later....

[JM2010]

I get the concern of some of the Greater Manchester clubs when Manchester Rangers applied. They would be competition for local players. It would only work if there was some proper development in Manchester with new junior clubs being introduced to open up a new player pool

[thecoffeeman]

57 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

I get the concern of some of the Greater Manchester clubs when Manchester Rangers applied. They would be competition for local players. It would only work if there was some proper development in Manchester with new junior clubs being introduced to open up a new player pool

Which is exactly what Mancunians were doing had done - build from the ground up. There were a really good number of volunteers, two mens teams, two embryonic kids teams, a healthy minis section, wheelchair and women's activity. All gone now thanks to duplicitous behaviour and short sightedness. 

There isn't likely to be any rugby league activity of note in the city of Manchester for a generation at least. 

Edited March 18 by thecoffeeman

[Tommygilf]

2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I get the concern of some of the Greater Manchester clubs when Manchester Rangers applied. They would be competition for local players. It would only work if there was some proper development in Manchester with new junior clubs being introduced to open up a new player pool

I'm sorry but I think that is nonsense. If the amount of RL activity West of the Pennines couldn't sustain another initially League 1 club then we need to get very real.

Equally, if "being close" is seen as a problem for a new club in the eyes of the old one, then the old one needs to be careful that its not seen as sub par or lazy in its efforts in that locality. It can't just hog an area with no other reason than "we were here first".

[The Daddy]

1 hour ago, Tommygilf said:

I'm sorry but I think that is nonsense. If the amount of RL activity West of the Pennines couldn't sustain another initially League 1 club then we need to get very real.

Equally, if "being close" is seen as a problem for a new club in the eyes of the old one, then the old one needs to be careful that its not seen as sub par or lazy in its efforts in that locality. It can't just hog an area with no other reason than "we were here first".

I was going to post this or something similar before you beat me to it. 

So 4 averagely performing Greater Manchester clubs that don't even claim the city as their own have the right to block another club in the area that has significant commercial potential for the sport? 

Please make it make sense. 

 

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, The Daddy said:

I was going to post this or something similar before you beat me to it. 

So 4 averagely performing Greater Manchester clubs that don't even claim the city as their own have the right to block another club in the area that has significant commercial potential for the sport? 

Please make it make sense. 

 

I’m a believer that if a new club is going to be added then there needs to be several junior clubs underneath otherwise its not really growing the game

[The Daddy]

2 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I’m a believer that if a new club is going to be added then there needs to be several junior clubs underneath otherwise its not really growing the game

Do the current set of Greater Manchester clubs have several junior clubs underneath them? 

I'm not talking about the ones in the Wigan area 

[JM2010]

4 minutes ago, The Daddy said:

Do the current set of Greater Manchester clubs have several junior clubs underneath them? 

I'm not talking about the ones in the Wigan area 

There’s some strong junior clubs in Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh in particular

[The Daddy]

38 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

There’s some strong junior clubs in Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh in particular

How many clubs do Swinton have underneath them? 

I'm doubtful that Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh have a large number of junior clubs. 

[JM2010]

1 minute ago, The Daddy said:

How many clubs do Swinton have underneath them? 

I'm doubtful that Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh have a large number of junior clubs. 

Swinton might not have many but Leigh definitely have two strong clubs who provide players to the professional game. I’m sure some of our posters from the West of the Pennines could provide a list of junior clubs in and around Oldham and Rochdale

[Anita Bath]

Depends on what you mean by ‘underneath them’. Rochdale Mayfield are and independent club in NCL premier with a recent history of competing at the top of the amateur game. They have a strong juniors system. They currently have a good relationship with Hornets but that has only emerged in the last year or two.

They have produced many players for the pro game including current internationals.

Rochdale Hornets have no junior teams but do have a womens team and a wheelchair team.

[whatmichaelsays]

16 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Equally, if "being close" is seen as a problem for a new club in the eyes of the old one, then the old one needs to be careful that its not seen as sub par or lazy in its efforts in that locality. It can't just hog an area with no other reason than "we were here first".

Hunslet objected to Bramley temporarily playing at Morley on no other basis than this. 

[Tommygilf]

I suspect the RFL would have preferred Manchester Rangers to have bought/merged with Swinton at the time, which seems incredibly short sighted now...

[Eddie]

11 hours ago, The Daddy said:

How many clubs do Swinton have underneath them? 

I'm doubtful that Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh have a large number of junior clubs. 

There are some strong NCL clubs from all three of those places. 

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

2 hours ago, Anita Bath said:

Depends on what you mean by ‘underneath them’. Rochdale Mayfield are and independent club in NCL premier with a recent history of competing at the top of the amateur game. They have a strong juniors system. They currently have a good relationship with Hornets but that has only emerged in the last year or two.

They have produced many players for the pro game including current internationals.

Rochdale Hornets have no junior teams but do have a womens team and a wheelchair team.

Learning disabilities and walking RL teams also in addition to an RFL accredited development academy partnership with Hopwood Hall college (Hopwood Hornets).

To be fair the way the game works is community / amateur clubs generally run the junior part of a playing pathway i.e. in Wigan St Pats, St Jude's, Ince Rose Bridge etc produce talent for not just Wigan but the wider game both community and professional.

Not many better community RL clubs in the country or the sport than Rochdale Mayfield.

 

 

[HornyHornyHorneeet]

14 hours ago, The Daddy said:

Do the current set of Greater Manchester clubs have several junior clubs underneath them? 

I'm not talking about the ones in the Wigan area 

Oldham has numerous community clubs which produce vast numbers of professional players as do Rochdale Mayfield.

 

[Celtic Roosters]

On 18/03/2025 at 21:55, The Daddy said:

How many clubs do Swinton have underneath them? 

I'm doubtful that Oldham, Rochdale and Leigh have a large number of junior clubs. 

Folly Lane are Swinton's nearest amateur club but in the same catchment area are Langworthy Reds, Salford City Roosters (formerly Eccles ARLFC) & Cadishead Rhinos. there have been many more in the years I have been involved in the game but sadly, they have disappeared. Irlam Hornets (double NWCL premier division champions early 90's) and Salford Juniors (3 times Lancashire cup finalists in the 50's) are the biggest losses. Langworthy (who beat leigh Miners in a Lancashire cup final) have fallen down the pecking order at open age but continue to produce youth teams). Folly Lane consistently produce top youth teams and have provided the game with the likes of Kallum Watkins. Eccles/Salford City Roosters are arguably the area's most successful club, providing the likes of Adrian Morley, Ian Watson and Nathan McAvoy, having spent 20 years in the NCL. They suffered for a lack of youth teams below the open age but, with a new clubhouse, new committee and improved facilities they are strong at youth level again and appear to be on their way back. Swinton can sign players from any area though and have been served well by Leigh Miners, Thatto Heath and Leigh East. All amateur leagues have less clubs than they used to have, but the clubs that are left run thriving youth sections. Amateur RL peaked in the mid 80's when, at one time, there were as many clubs in London as there were in Wigan. It's generally been in decline since then. Amateur RL used to be my real passion up to about 2 years ago.

[Winston Smith]

On 17/03/2025 at 23:08, The Daddy said:

Thanks for that insight. So why are some Swinton fans against a rebrand to Manchester?

Swinton are one of the most iconic clubs in sport. Founded in 1866 when most clubs weren’t even a thought. The aim is to go home, not change their name to Manchester. To go home, they need Salford council to back that and if they become Manchester, that will never happen. 

[Winston Smith]

On 15/03/2025 at 23:19, thecoffeeman said:

If you don't mind me joining in, I'd like to tell you the story behind one half of the Manchester rugby league saga. 

In late 2008 I was working for the RFL in a consultancy capacity along with some of their commercial partners. 

I was approached by them to help them set up a club in Manchester and I agreed.

I asked the RFL at the time which would be the easiest route, an adult team or a children's team. My preference would have been for a children's team but I was advised that adult team would be the easiest route. 

So along with three other very capable and knowledgeable people we set up Mancunians RL and joined the Rugby League Conference. 

We had a lot of success, winning a decent amount of silverware, and created some fantastic partnerships, most notably with the City Council the two Universities and crucially many of the local rugby union clubs. 

We also had a great relationship, or so I thought, with the RFL.

We had several meetings with Steve Ferres, who was working for the RFL at the time with a view to joining an expanded Division 3. 

Our relationship manager at the RFL was the local RFL development manager who I had, or so I thought, a good relationship with.

Despite the background of the new Tory government and austerity measures, we raised approximately £50,000 from agencies such as Manchester city council, to fund a full-time member of coaching staff in partnership with the Manchester College. 

In February 2013 I sat down with the RFL relationship manager and took him through our business plan, our development strategy, our volunteer strategy, everything that I had presented to the RFL in our bid to join Division 3. 

One week later Manchester Rangers appeared on the scene, with the same Development Manager who I had met with just days before, as one of their leading administrators. 

Needless to say everyone at Mancunians was incredulous that this was allowed to happen but our formal complaints to the RFL fell on deaf ears. 

We were even advised by the RFL that they had encouraged the new club to set up as they, in the words of one of the RFL development managers (who is actually still in post) was that they wanted to create a Man Utd vs Man city scenario. I obviously advised them that they were crazy to think that this would work. 

Within weeks Mancunians had lost approximately 50% of our volunteers, half of our team of players and those who remained were completely demoralised. 

On speaking to our key partners, who the new team had obviously approached, all of them advised us that the obviously had to support both teams, but off the record told us that there were concerned at the level of duplication. 

As @Amber Avengermentioned we had a considerable community focus at the time with pockets of activity in several areas of Manchester with regular touch rugby, walking rugby, wheelchair rugby and even some women's activity at one point. 

Over the next few years we battled on and the even grew our junior section despite the duplication and even interference, but finally hoisted the white flag when the pandemic arrived five years ago. 

I still work in professional sport and still work closely with many of the agencies mentioned above, apart from the RFL. I still work with the same people I mentioned above and we still talk about the crazy scenario which was created by the RFL and we are unanimous in concluding that rugby league is not likely have a presence in the city of Manchester for the generation to come. 

The Manchester Rangers thing was just a side show. Even people at the council knew and said that they were aware that's it was smoke and mirrors and no one was really surprised when they gave it up.

So sadly this is the background to why Manchester doesn't have a Rugby League club. Mancunians were formed in 2009 and lasted until 2020, the club was created to represent the Manchester community and we did that successfully for 11 fantastic years. The same cannot be said of Manchester Rangers, who along with the RFL ruined all the fantastic relationships that the sport (not me or Mancunians, I hasten to add) had built. 

I have been approached in the last couple of years to help create another club but as I have had my fingers burnt too many times with the sport of Rugby League, I said a very polite but firm no.

The RFL are very much the problem when it comes to growing the game. I was very much involved with local rugby league in my area, and I watched as the local league collapsed. Hardcore rugby league people walked away and most are lost to the game forever. People with talent and business acumen just driven out by absolute idiots at the RFL. I went to non-league football and what an absolute pleasure it was to work with the governing bodies there. Leagues that are in the pyramid and run by volunteers from the clubs themselves are just ran so much more professionally than the RFL. 

[Roughyed Rats]

On 19/03/2025 at 09:46, Eddie said:

There are some strong NCL clubs from all three of those places. 

They literally make up a quarter of the Premier Division 

[JM2010]

1 hour ago, Roughyed Rats said:

They literally make up a quarter of the Premier Division 

Exactly. My point about a professional Manchester club is that there needs to be some decent junior activity in the city first before a professional club is formed otherwise it just thins out the talent being produced in the neighbouring towns.

Do any of the professional clubs in Greater Manchester do any development work in Manchester? I’m sure there’s a lot of untapped talent

Edited March 20 by JM2010

[thecoffeeman]

8 hours ago, Winston Smith said:

The RFL are very much the problem when it comes to growing the game. I was very much involved with local rugby league in my area, and I watched as the local league collapsed. Hardcore rugby league people walked away and most are lost to the game forever. People with talent and business acumen just driven out by absolute idiots at the RFL. I went to non-league football and what an absolute pleasure it was to work with the governing bodies there. Leagues that are in the pyramid and run by volunteers from the clubs themselves are just ran so much more professionally than the RFL. 

I probably need to be crystal clear here. Sports governing bodies have very rigid plans which are funded by sport England that they need to keep to. That plan takes months to prepare and is worth millions of pounds to NGB'S. 

That plan 'should' be produced following consultation with fans, members and stakeholders of the game. 

Overwhelmingly those plans are delivered with fantastic value to funders and have incredible outcomes

Having worked with sports NGB'S for 25 years my post definitely isn't about NGB bashing. Yes they all have blind spots, but overwhelmingly they do they do fantastic things. 

Without being too personal, it was a small group of personalities who ended Mancunians' adventure. Some of those had inside knowledge into our plans and workings and took advantage of our good nature, not the RFL as an official governing body.