The Shay Halifax

[daz39]

35 minutes ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

 

That would require the Giants to sell him their 20% share....

Correct, Ken will get a fair price though i'm sure, he's already said the current owner is the only one from the football club he's liked and is willing to deal with.

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

I'm intrigued as to where that extra point for facilities comes from?

At the moment the Giants only score the minimum 0.5 points on the facilities score. If Davy does the work that he has promised this goes up to 1.5.

[BilliejoesBlue]

A couple of points on this

- What happens when Davy moves to sell The Shay to the Panthers/FCHT in a few years time? It is more than likely that both clubs won't have the funds to buy the stadium.

- Davy is in his 80s. Are the Davy family committed to the Shay in the event that he is no longer there?

- There are some comments about bringing the Shay up to SL standard. Arguably, the Shay is a better facility than some SL grounds. such as The MAH/Jungle, and Belle Vue for example (even with the new stand at BV). 

[Les Tonks Sidestep]

49 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

At the moment the Giants only score the minimum 0.5 points on the facilities score. If Davy does the work that he has promised this goes up to 1.5.

So not a given extra point without a reasonable amount of work* being carried out and completed in the next ca6 months to get the boost for 2026.

*Although I'm sure a bit of a bodge as per WR will suffice.

[maccbull_bigbullybooaza]

7 hours ago, whatmichaelsays said:

One difficult question that is probably pertinent here is to what extend Ken's heirs are prepared to underwrite costs at the Giants when he is no longer around? 

Without being morbid, Davy is 84 and if neither the means nor appetite are there for his family to fund the Giants into the future, he may be minded to think that he needs time to "right-size" the business to secure its future and his legacy. I don't know what the costs are at the JSS, but I do know that the Council have been working hard to get rid of their stake in the asset before some sizable maintenance bills become due, so "staying until there is an alternative" may not be viable long-term. That isn't to say that Halifax is a desirable option either, but there's a possibility it is the best of a bad bunch. 

His daughter and family are onboard. His granddaughter is a non executive director of the club,

[Martyn Sadler]

21 hours ago, M j M said:

Is anyone yet able to tell me why this is a good idea?

No, but I'm sure plenty of people will be able to tell you why this move is absolutely nuts.

All to get an extra grading point?

Surely someone is pulling our leg!

[The Blues Ox]

1 hour ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So not a given extra point without a reasonable amount of work* being carried out and completed in the next ca6 months to get the boost for 2026.

*Although I'm sure a bit of a bodge as per WR will suffice.

Yeah work to be done but Davy has promised that it will be.

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

No, but I'm sure plenty of people will be able to tell you why this move is absolutely nuts.

All to get an extra grading point?

Surely someone is pulling our leg!

An extra grading point that is enough to guarentee them SL status.......I don't think its unreasonable to think that if they stayed at the JSS that they could lose their status in the next year or two as it is pretty hard for them to get to 15 points without that extra point for facilities.

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, Martyn Sadler said:

No, but I'm sure plenty of people will be able to tell you why this move is absolutely nuts.

All to get an extra grading point?

Surely someone is pulling our leg!

It isn't all for that, as a clearly well connected poster has said on this thread.

The basic premise seems to be that staying at the John Smith's stadium is going to become unviable financially very shortly.

It seems that either this is a financial move for the club in the short term that will cost less than staying would, whilst a new stadium is built; or it is a move designed to kick Kirklees council into action.

Sadly I think the 2 Halifax clubs are passengers in this, though they will hopefully end up playing at an improved venue as a result!

[Martyn Sadler]

3 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It isn't all for that, as a clearly well connected poster has said on this thread.

The basic premise seems to be that staying at the John Smith's stadium is going to become unviable financially very shortly.

It seems that either this is a financial move for the club in the short term that will cost less than staying would, whilst a new stadium is built; or it is a move designed to kick Kirklees council into action.

Sadly I think the 2 Halifax clubs are passengers in this, though they will hopefully end up playing at an improved venue as a result!

I'm not sure what the cost will be of acquiring and then developing The Shay, but I suspect that if the same investment were made into marketing the Giants and attracting better attendances where they are now, then their future would be far more secure.

I remember the outcry many years ago when the then Wigan Chairman Jack Robinson suggested that he was going to move the club to share Bolton's stadium.

There was a major rebellion among the fans and that helped Dave Whelan buy the club and move them to their current home.

The frustrating thing is that the Giants have attracted some decent crowds at various times in the relatively recent past but even then they showed very little ability to capitalise on those figures.

[Tommygilf]

1 minute ago, Martyn Sadler said:

I'm not sure what the cost will be of acquiring and then developing The Shay, but I suspect that if the same investment were made into marketing the Giants and attracting better attendances where they are now, then their future would be far more secure.

I remember the outcry many years ago when the then Wigan Chairman Jack Robinson suggested that he was going to move the club to share Bolton's stadium.

There was a major rebellion among the fans and that helped Dave Whelan buy the club and move them to their current home.

The frustrating thing is that the Giants have attracted some decent crowds at various times in the relatively recent past but even then they showed very little ability to capitalise on those figures.

They got over 11k for an early round cup game at home in 2013, it seems very far away from that now.

Unfortunately I do think the current stadium is a problem for them with marketing. Its too big, it encourages zero atmosphere, going to Giants games seems to be a bit of a boring outing. No amount of marketing can really improve that fundamental product problem imo.

Part of the problem I strongly feel is that even when they have got their best attendances against what home fans would consider their biggest rivals (Leeds for example), its still been with less than half the stadium being full. How do you sell that on to an already fragile fanbase? Contrast that with a club like Leigh, Hull KR, Cas, Wakey this past year and even Warrington going back further, none of these are playing in massive stadiums, but they've been able to grow crowds and build decent atmospheres and positivity around the club due to not being in an oversized cavern that seems to suck the life out of the pitch unless its full.

Its definitely a very left field move to purchase the Shay. But if the reports of imminent financial implications for the JSS are true, then it becomes more reasonable. Add in that there is potential to get bonus Grading points, ones that would secure the club as an A grade Super League club for the near future, and it becomes more attractive imo.

I simply hope Huddersfield have a concrete plan to move back to the town as soon as possible, with a new ground built for them and their needs. Its my major concern that they would leave and struggle to come back.

[Agbrigg]

This purported new ground in Huddersfield, where will it be ? As far as I know there hasn't even been a location identified. Then the various processes of buying, planning and building. I suspect the minimum time in Halifax will be at the very least three seasons.

[mattcasfan]

2 hours ago, The Blues Ox said:

At the moment the Giants only score the minimum 0.5 points on the facilities score. If Davy does the work that he has promised this goes up to 1.5.

You're the first person I've seen to state Hudds don't get the full 1.5 for facilities at the John Smiths? 

Which of the 10 criteria do they fall foul on?

Are you sure about this? Their score of 14.48 surely has to include the full 1.5 points? They can't get that high without it...

If I'm correct, then the reason for the move is even more useless as they're talking about improving their utilisation % by maybe 0.2 to 0.4.. depending on what the capacity it as the Shay nowadays?

Cheers! 

[dboy]

Utilisation?

[langpark]

20 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

It's my major concern that they would leave and struggle to come back.

I have the opposite concern. My concern is that this one season at the Shay, averaging crowds of 800 could be the final nail in their coffin. 

[Tommygilf]

2 minutes ago, langpark said:

I have the opposite concern. My concern is that this one season at the Shay, averaging crowds of 800 could be the final nail in their coffin. 

I sincerely doubt that. Davy hasn't spent the last however many years to see the club destroyed.

[Tommygilf]

11 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

This purported new ground in Huddersfield, where will it be ? As far as I know there hasn't even been a location identified. Then the various processes of buying, planning and building. I suspect the minimum time in Halifax will be at the very least three seasons.

Its a major flaw in this plan though I almost hope Davy, who isn't a stranger to politics, is playing a bit of a game here to force the council's hand in regards to planning permissions on already identified sites.

[M j M]

19 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:

This purported new ground in Huddersfield, where will it be ? As far as I know there hasn't even been a location identified. Then the various processes of buying, planning and building. I suspect the minimum time in Halifax will be at the very least three seasons.

I think it's more likely to be nearer a decade given they've not even started the planning process yet.

[whatmichaelsays]

39 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They got over 11k for an early round cup game at home in 2013, it seems very far away from that now.

Unfortunately I do think the current stadium is a problem for them with marketing. Its too big, it encourages zero atmosphere, going to Giants games seems to be a bit of a boring outing. No amount of marketing can really improve that fundamental product problem imo.

Part of the problem I strongly feel is that even when they have got their best attendances against what home fans would consider their biggest rivals (Leeds for example), its still been with less than half the stadium being full. How do you sell that on to an already fragile fanbase? Contrast that with a club like Leigh, Hull KR, Cas, Wakey this past year and even Warrington going back further, none of these are playing in massive stadiums, but they've been able to grow crowds and build decent atmospheres and positivity around the club due to not being in an oversized cavern that seems to suck the life out of the pitch unless its full.

Its definitely a very left field move to purchase the Shay. But if the reports of imminent financial implications for the JSS are true, then it becomes more reasonable. Add in that there is potential to get bonus Grading points, ones that would secure the club as an A grade Super League club for the near future, and it becomes more attractive imo.

I simply hope Huddersfield have a concrete plan to move back to the town as soon as possible, with a new ground built for them and their needs. Its my major concern that they would leave and struggle to come back.

This is my take on this, and I recall a previous "back and forth" with Martyn on this point. 

Huddersfield Giants games are a fundamentally poor product that has been valued too cheaply for too long. It's a poor match day experience (in a stadium that is nothing special by modern standards), with a poor atmosphere and little to excite an audience. The drab rugby is just the cherry on top. 

Addressing that issue by moving to a venue when the product has a chance on improving IS the very definition of "marketing the Giants better". It gives the Giants an opportunity to reinvent their image, the opportunity to reduce their reliance on cheap tickets and the opportunity to make their home games something you want to be at. 

We can argue about whether Halifax is the right option, but no amount of "better marketing" will change anything unless Huddersfield deal with the most important of the "four Ps".

[Martyn Sadler]

42 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:

They got over 11k for an early round cup game at home in 2013, it seems very far away from that now.

Unfortunately I do think the current stadium is a problem for them with marketing. Its too big, it encourages zero atmosphere, going to Giants games seems to be a bit of a boring outing. No amount of marketing can really improve that fundamental product problem imo.

Part of the problem I strongly feel is that even when they have got their best attendances against what home fans would consider their biggest rivals (Leeds for example), its still been with less than half the stadium being full. How do you sell that on to an already fragile fanbase? Contrast that with a club like Leigh, Hull KR, Cas, Wakey this past year and even Warrington going back further, none of these are playing in massive stadiums, but they've been able to grow crowds and build decent atmospheres and positivity around the club due to not being in an oversized cavern that seems to suck the life out of the pitch unless its full.

Its definitely a very left field move to purchase the Shay. But if the reports of imminent financial implications for the JSS are true, then it becomes more reasonable. Add in that there is potential to get bonus Grading points, ones that would secure the club as an A grade Super League club for the near future, and it becomes more attractive imo.

I simply hope Huddersfield have a concrete plan to move back to the town as soon as possible, with a new ground built for them and their needs. Its my major concern that they would leave and struggle to come back.

As far as the stadium goes, I really enjoy watching matches there, even with limited crowd sizes.

I know that gauging atmosphere is a subjective judgement but I've never found it to be that bad.

I'm convinced that with some smart promotions they could increase their crowds significantly over time.

But they don't seem to make the effort, as far as I can tell.

And telling the fans they are going to move out of town will hardly help in that regard.

I fear for the club's future.

[Anita Bath]

Trying to think of other examples of clubs moving away from their traditional supporter base.

Swinton, Fulham, I suppose you could include Salford, Blackpool, North Wales, Liverpool City, then a whole bunch of short lived ‘expansion’ teams who uprooted - Kent Invicta, Mansfield, Cardiff, etc etc.

All seemed to end in tears. One exception might be Coventry moving lock stock and barrel to Birmingham though it's early days.

I hope for the sake of the game as a whole that it works for Huddersfield. To everyone except the good folks of Oldham, Huddersfield is known as the cradle of RL.

 

[Martyn Sadler]

1 minute ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It gives the Giants an opportunity ...

The Giants have an opportunity where they are now.

It's just that they seem unable to take it.

And I struggle to understand that when they move to Halifax they will suddenly be inspired to take advantage of the opportunity offered by that venue, given their past record.

How long will it be before The Shay is too big for them?

[JimmyBatl]

I can only see this as a disastrous move.

Walking from town to/from a game is a fundamental part of watching UK sports.

 

Yes, I get that there's a handful of people who drive 300 miles roundtrip to watch their team, but the standard experience is to set off from your home, take in a couple of pints before/after, then walk to the ground.

Ken  can put on all the free buses he wants from St. George's Square, but it will still massively impact the Huddersfield contingent.

I can only assume he thinks that the size of the stadium plus the hope he can pick up a few Halifax neutrals (against, Wigan, Saints, Leeds) will be enough.

 

Either way, I can't see them ever returning to Huddersfield. 

[Martyn Sadler]

7 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:

Trying to think of other examples of clubs moving away from their traditional supporter base.

Swinton, Fulham, I suppose you could include Salford, Blackpool, North Wales, Liverpool City, then a whole bunch of short lived ‘expansion’ teams who uprooted - Kent Invicta, Mansfield, Cardiff, etc etc.

All seemed to end in tears. One exception might be Coventry moving lock stock and barrel to Birmingham though it's early days.

I hope for the sake of the game as a whole that it works for Huddersfield. To everyone except the good folks of Oldham, Huddersfield is known as the cradle of RL.

 

There's an interesting current example in the NRL.

Last season Penrith sold out most of their games, getting around 21,000 for most matches.

This season and next, Penrith Park is being redeveloped, so the Panthers will play their home games at the Commbank Stadium in Parramatta, which is a far superior stadium to Penrith Park.

But the crowd they drew at the weekend was roughly half of what they would have drawn at their traditional home, despite it being against one of their great rivals the Roosters and despite them having beaten the Sharks in Las Vegas.

Fans don't like to see their club playing its home games elsewhere, even when there's a valid reason, which there clearly is in Penrith's case.

[Taffy Tiger]

47 minutes ago, mattcasfan said:

You're the first person I've seen to state Hudds don't get the full 1.5 for facilities at the John Smiths? 

Which of the 10 criteria do they fall foul on?

Are you sure about this? Their score of 14.48 surely has to include the full 1.5 points? They can't get that high without it...

If I'm correct, then the reason for the move is even more useless as they're talking about improving their utilisation % by maybe 0.2 to 0.4.. depending on what the capacity it as the Shay nowadays?

Cheers! 

Agree , they will have scored 1.5 points not 0.5 points for the stadium . They will fall down on utilisation as mentioned but not by a full point . They will also lose 0.25 points for not being the sole owner/tennant (not sure how that works for The Shay though) 

Will definitely have scored 1.5 for Stadium in 2024 

[Taffy Tiger]

3 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

So not a given extra point without a reasonable amount of work* being carried out and completed in the next ca6 months to get the boost for 2026.

*Although I'm sure a bit of a bodge as per WR will suffice.

Why is it a bit of a bodge ? Do you think that putting in 1.7k extra seats (which you said at the time wouldn't happen) is a bit of a bodge ?

We did what we had to do to bring it up to the standard required for maximum points . As an older stadium it had to meet different criteria than the newer stadiums , including new seating area for VIPs in main stand , criteria which we met at no small cost to the club .

 

 

Edited March 18 by Taffy Tiger