The Shay Halifax

[whatmichaelsays]

11 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

The Giants have an opportunity where they are now.

It's just that they seem unable to take it.

And I struggle to understand that when they move to Halifax they will suddenly be inspired to take advantage of the opportunity offered by that venue, given their past record.

How long will it be before The Shay is too big for them?

It is possible to believe that Halifax is not the right move whilst also believing that the JSS is a venue that is holding them back in so many respects. 

The ideal scenario is a more suitable venue in Huddersfield. That doesn't exist. So the options appear to be either:

a) Stay at a ground that they know doesn't work for them, where they have struggled to make their match days something that people want to attend (even with some of the cheapest tickets in the league), and where there some significant maintenance bills in the post. 

b) Find a temporary venue that doesn't appear to have those issues, even if it is far from ideal and far from free of it's own issues, whilst looking for alternatives. 

I'm not saying B Is better, but I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that A isn't a good option. It's certainly not one they can "market" their way out of. The people of Huddersfield don't want what they Giants are selling. 

Edited March 19 by whatmichaelsays

[The Phantom Horseman]

3 hours ago, Les Tonks Sidestep said:

 

*Although I'm sure a bit of a bodge as per WR will suffice.

Apologies for the diversion, but did anyone else mis-read this as "a bit of a boogie" and immediately think of Henderson Gill?

[JimmyBatl]

9 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It is possible to believe that Halifax is not the right move whilst also believing that the JSS is a venue that is holding them back in so many respects. 

The ideal scenario is a more suitable venue in Huddersfield. That doesn't exist. So the options appear to be either:

a) Stay at a ground that they know doesn't work for them, where they have struggled to make their match days something that people want to attend (even with some of the cheapest tickets in the league), and where there some maintenance significant bills in the post. 

b) Find a temporary venue that doesn't appear to have those issues, even if it is far from ideal and far from free of it's own issues, whilst looking for alternatives. 

I'm not saying B Is better, but I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that A isn't a good option. It's certainly not one they can "market" their way out of. The people of Huddersfield don't want what they Giants are selling. 

Will they want what they are selling 7 years later in a 10K stadium? Or will RL in a HD postcode have withered on the vine by then? So, is this just Ken giving up on a Huddersfield crowd and hoping that a two-town Giathers based in a HX postcode is the best option?

[daz39]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

No, but I'm sure plenty of people will be able to tell you why this move is absolutely nuts.

All to get an extra grading point?

Surely someone is pulling our leg!

Martyn, come along to the HGSA evening with Ken on the 9th April, i'm sure he will explain the positives and negatives in full.

[daz39]

1 hour ago, M j M said:

I think it's more likely to be nearer a decade given they've not even started the planning process yet.

Who says they haven't?

[daz39]

1 hour ago, JimmyBatl said:

I can only see this as a disastrous move.

Walking from town to/from a game is a fundamental part of watching UK sports.

 

Yes, I get that there's a handful of people who drive 300 miles roundtrip to watch their team, but the standard experience is to set off from your home, take in a couple of pints before/after, then walk to the ground.

Ken  can put on all the free buses he wants from St. George's Square, but it will still massively impact the Huddersfield contingent.

I can only assume he thinks that the size of the stadium plus the hope he can pick up a few Halifax neutrals (against, Wigan, Saints, Leeds) will be enough.

 

Either way, I can't see them ever returning to Huddersfield. 

Our fans don't do that, the majority drive to the stadium, park up at 2.45/7.45 watch the game then go home.

[M j M]

7 minutes ago, daz39 said:

Who says they haven't?

The formal planning process is a public thing you know.

[daz39]

1 minute ago, M j M said:

The formal planning process is a public thing you know.

I know but how do we know that they aren't at a stage to start the process?

[M j M]

52 minutes ago, whatmichaelsays said:

It is possible to believe that Halifax is not the right move whilst also believing that the JSS is a venue that is holding them back in so many respects. 

The ideal scenario is a more suitable venue in Huddersfield. That doesn't exist. So the options appear to be either:

a) Stay at a ground that they know doesn't work for them, where they have struggled to make their match days something that people want to attend (even with some of the cheapest tickets in the league), and where there some maintenance significant bills in the post. 

b) Find a temporary venue that doesn't appear to have those issues, even if it is far from ideal and far from free of it's own issues, whilst looking for alternatives. 

I'm not saying B Is better, but I'm saying that there is plenty of evidence to support the claim that A isn't a good option. It's certainly not one they can "market" their way out of. The people of Huddersfield don't want what they Giants are selling. 

I don't think many are disagreeing that the ideal is a new, right sized, stadium in Huddersfield. But is moving to a ground in another town entirely in the, supposed, interim is the right decision now? That's the point. And I keep coming back to it being a club killer historically, no matter how hard people try to make it work.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

There's an interesting current example in the NRL.

Last season Penrith sold out most of their games, getting around 21,000 for most matches.

This season and next, Penrith Park is being redeveloped, so the Panthers will play their home games at the Commbank Stadium in Parramatta, which is a far superior stadium to Penrith Park.

But the crowd they drew at the weekend was roughly half of what they would have drawn at their traditional home, despite it being against one of their great rivals the Roosters and despite them having beaten the Sharks in Las Vegas.

Fans don't like to see their club playing its home games elsewhere, even when there's a valid reason, which there clearly is in Penrith's case.

That’s not the most like for like comparison though. It’s an hour and 25 miles between Panthers Stadium and Commbank. 7.5 miles and 20 mins gets you from JSS to The Shay. Obviously that’s not the same for all fans but does show the difference, even when we’re talking about Sydney suburbs. 

[M j M]

5 minutes ago, daz39 said:

I know but how do we know that they aren't at a stage to start the process?

Maybe they are. But what's the fastest a club has ever got in the modern era from first planning to first game? 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, Martyn Sadler said:

As far as the stadium goes, I really enjoy watching matches there, even with limited crowd sizes.

I know that gauging atmosphere is a subjective judgement but I've never found it to be that bad.

I'm convinced that with some smart promotions they could increase their crowds significantly over time.

But they don't seem to make the effort, as far as I can tell.

And telling the fans they are going to move out of town will hardly help in that regard.

I fear for the club's future.

They do a fair bit, and have had successful teams (LLS and CCFx2 in the past 15 years or so). They've had crowds above the SL average too in that time. 

I know atmosphere is subjective but the overwhelming body of evidence from fans of all clubs (including Huddersfield themselves) is that the stadium negatively affects the matchday experience in this regard.

Those 7 to even 11k attendances they got during their most successful seasons could have been great positive atmospheres in a more appropriately sized venue. Instead it just feels slightly less bad than now with 4.5k in there. Those figures were significant increases in their crowds, they've done it already. They just don't have that quality product to keep people going. 

I think the stadium isn't spectacular by modern standards. Its solid, but its nothing special. Since the removal of the claret trim from the seating I think Giants haven't felt at home there either - that trickles out to the fans. 

Ironically, even with just 4.5k or something like that in, I would expect the Shay to be better in atmosphere for the Giants than currently at the JSS.

Ultimately though they need a 10 to 15k stadium in Huddersfield itself. 

[Tommygilf]

25 minutes ago, daz39 said:

Our fans don't do that, the majority drive to the stadium, park up at 2.45/7.45 watch the game then go home.

Its a definite thing with your fan culture I suppose, that makes any sort of move a bit easier as there doesn't seem to be that attachment that say Leeds would have with the Headingley locality. 

[Tommygilf]

1 hour ago, whatmichaelsays said:

This is my take on this, and I recall a previous "back and forth" with Martyn on this point. 

Huddersfield Giants games are a fundamentally poor product that has been valued too cheaply for too long. It's a poor match day experience (in a stadium that is nothing special by modern standards), with a poor atmosphere and little to excite an audience. The drab rugby is just the cherry on top. 

Addressing that issue by moving to a venue when the product has a chance on improving IS the very definition of "marketing the Giants better". It gives the Giants an opportunity to reinvent their image, the opportunity to reduce their reliance on cheap tickets and the opportunity to make their home games something you want to be at. 

We can argue about whether Halifax is the right option, but no amount of "better marketing" will change anything unless Huddersfield deal with the most important of the "four Ps".

Totally agree.

Even if they did something spectacular and trebled their attendances they would be barely half full. Its a ground totally unsuited to them and their needs, that is about the only thing that is clear right now. And it was true before these supposed costs were incoming too.

I do hope more plans emerge from 9th April fans meeting so there is clarity of what the vision is. But in terms of "marketing", I don't know what else the club can do that they haven't done already.

I wish that since 2010 they had a 10 to 15k ground in Huddersfield that could be rocking every week. Their best recent era for crowds would have been a positive experience they could have owned and been proud about.

Instead we see what would happen if we made St Helens play at Anfield every week or Cas at Elland Road. It saps energy out of everything and humiliates the club every other week.

[The Blues Ox]

2 hours ago, mattcasfan said:

You're the first person I've seen to state Hudds don't get the full 1.5 for facilities at the John Smiths? 

Which of the 10 criteria do they fall foul on?

Are you sure about this? Their score of 14.48 surely has to include the full 1.5 points? They can't get that high without it...

If I'm correct, then the reason for the move is even more useless as they're talking about improving their utilisation % by maybe 0.2 to 0.4.. depending on what the capacity it as the Shay nowadays?

Cheers! 

Just going on what Ken Davy had said previously in one of his interviews(I will try and find it), I have a funny feeling it was to do with the TV gantry and all it takes is to fail on one of the criteria and you end up with minimum points.

[The Blues Ox]

Just further on that if it is true that they scored 1.5 points for facilities already then when you take in to consideration they will lose points due to a shared catchment area then it looks like business suicide as it will almost certainly relegate them. I feel like Davy is smarter than that.

[Josef K]

2 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:

There's an interesting current example in the NRL.

Last season Penrith sold out most of their games, getting around 21,000 for most matches.

This season and next, Penrith Park is being redeveloped, so the Panthers will play their home games at the Commbank Stadium in Parramatta, which is a far superior stadium to Penrith Park.

But the crowd they drew at the weekend was roughly half of what they would have drawn at their traditional home, despite it being against one of their great rivals the Roosters and despite them having beaten the Sharks in Las Vegas.

Fans don't like to see their club playing its home games elsewhere, even when there's a valid reason, which there clearly is in Penrith's case.

Saints lost a good few bob when they moved to Widnes for the year but obviously that had to be done.
They did offer an incentive for season ticket holders, but for the life of me i can’t remember what it was now. 
I hope everything works out for Fartown as i want every RL club to become stronger. 

[Josef K]

As I don’t do other RL sites or facebook/twitter how are the Halifax Town fans taking the news. I suppose them losing tonight will make them a bit peeved. I saw a few minutes of their match Vs D&R it looked as if they could’ve put all the fans in one stand it was empty. The pitch looked as if it had had the farmers ploughing championship before the game. HTFC id expect would be really happy they’ll finally get a new pitch!!!. 

[whatmichaelsays]

10 hours ago, M j M said:

I don't think many are disagreeing that the ideal is a new, right sized, stadium in Huddersfield. But is moving to a ground in another town entirely in the, supposed, interim is the right decision now? That's the point. And I keep coming back to it being a club killer historically, no matter how hard people try to make it work.

It doesn't necessarily have to be a "club killer" and to be honest, given how disassociated the people of Huddersfield seem to be with the Giants, they probably have a better chance than most of making it work. 

It's another sport, granted, but Rotherham United (four years at Don Valley, Sheffield) and Coventry City (one year in Northampton and two at St Andrews in Birmingham) are recent examples of sporting clubs that have survived temporary moves away from their city, and Grimsby Town haven't played in Grimsby since 1898. 

Of course, there are nuances to each case (and people will invariably argue that football isn't a fair comparison, which I don't agree with), but it isn't automatically a death-knell. 

[gingerjon]

Just now, whatmichaelsays said:

It doesn't necessarily have to be a "club killer" and to be honest, given how disassociated the people of Huddersfield seem to be with the Giants, they probably have a better chance than most of making it work. 

It's another sport, granted, but Rotherham United (four years at Don Valley, Sheffield) and Coventry City (one year in Northampton and two at St Andrews in Birmingham) are recent examples of sporting clubs that have survived temporary moves away from their city, and Grimsby Town haven't played in Grimsby since 1898. 

Of course, there are nuances to each case (and people will invariably argue that football isn't a fair comparison, which I don't agree with), but it isn't automatically a death-knell. 

I think there are more examples of it not working in soccer than it working but you're right to make the point that it isn't always fatal.

The key thing is usually to have the return planned and progress started.

[Just Browny]

12 hours ago, Tommygilf said:

Its a major flaw in this plan though I almost hope Davy, who isn't a stranger to politics, is playing a bit of a game here to force the council's hand in regards to planning permissions on already identified sites.

He is, however, a stranger to winning at politics.

[whatmichaelsays]

1 minute ago, gingerjon said:

I think there are more examples of it not working in soccer than it working but you're right to make the point that it isn't always fatal.

The key thing is usually to have the return planned and progress started.

Oh for sure. And equally, there are some examples of disastrous stadium moves even within a club's city or catchment area (Darlington FC is probably the best/worst example there).  

[Tommygilf]

6 minutes ago, Just Browny said:

He is, however, a stranger to winning at politics.

Indeed in the public forum! But he may be a better operator in the halls of power (making Kirklees Council sound very imposing!).

[Hopping Mad]

9 hours ago, Josef K said:

As I don’t do other RL sites or facebook/twitter how are the Halifax Town fans taking the news. I suppose them losing tonight will make them a bit peeved. I saw a few minutes of their match Vs D&R it looked as if they could’ve put all the fans in one stand it was empty. The pitch looked as if it had had the farmers ploughing championship before the game. HTFC id expect would be really happy they’ll finally get a new pitch!!!. 

Halifax Town fans are far from happy - as various threads (and an explosion of new members since Calderdale Council's decision was announced) on theshaymen.net forum indicates. Mind you, since Fax started sharing the Shay, rugby league's reputation- if you'll excuse the pun - has been mud (and the sport wasn't so despised when Fax played at Thrum Hall) with the football fraternity. In that sense, nothing has changed.

Despite the noise from Halifax Town supporters, it was inevitable Calderdale Council accepted Davy's offer - he's the only interested party with any money. The council is skint (therefore desperate to offload a loss-making, unfit-for-purpose, costly-to-maintain white elephant), the rugby league club is skint and the football club is skint. With the two clubs now mustering barely 3,000 fans between them (i.e. less than the capacity of the east stand), I imagine Calderdale's council tax payers are thrilled to see the back of the Shay.

Edited March 19 by Hopping Mad

[fieldofclothofgold]

Huddersfield Giants who dont seem to be getting the the support they should be getting in the town of Huddersfield . So they're are proposing to relocate to Halifax and still call themselves Huddersfield Giants ? Do they expect the fans the Huddersfield residents to move with them ? .