Trials

[Maximus Decimus]

Seems to be a few big ones at the moment. I'm fascinated by the Erin Patterson trial in Australia and follow a couple of podcasts. It seems to have everything, possible murder, mystery, cover up etc.

On first glance, it seems like far too much to be coincidental but there is a bit that just doesn't make sense to me, and that's the lack of motive.

Initially, when the rumours were flying, it looked incredibly suspicious that the ex-husband had been in the ICU for 21 days with a mystery condition. The presumption therefore was that the meal was a ruse to kill him and he didn't turn up.

However, the reality is he didn't turn up so that doesn't make sense. At literally the last moment, she could have made an excuse and not served the food, but she decided to. If she knew it was poisonous, what does she gain from killing these people? Of course, she could just be a thrill killer but that seems less likely.

The key will be the science IMO, and whether it was possible for her to get a Beef Wellington that would have only made her moderately ill and her children not ill at all. 

 

[Fly-By-TheWire]

1 hour ago, Maximus Decimus said:

If she knew it was poisonous, what does she gain from killing these people? Of course, she could just be a thrill killer but that seems less likely.

Quite often in these cases, the murder thing is a fantasy that suddenly manifests.   Have you ever watched the documentary "Don't F*** With Cats!" ?   Eye opener.   Especially in this day and age, where many people appear to find it hard to distinguish the virtual online world from actual reality.

[Maximus Decimus]

27 minutes ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

Quite often in these cases, the murder thing is a fantasy that suddenly manifests.   Have you ever watched the documentary "Don't F*** With Cats!" ?   Eye opener.   Especially in this day and age, where many people appear to find it hard to distinguish the virtual online world from actual reality.

That was truly insane. The best of those Netflix dramas.

[Fly-By-TheWire]

13 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

That was truly insane. The best of those Netflix dramas.

I also thought it raised an interesting point at the end, concerning whether the fame and publicity generated by the internet sleuths on the hunt may have unwittingly contributed to a narcissistic psychopath's decision to escalate from killing animals to humans.   

[DavidM]

There’s a few sheepdog trials going on up here at the moment so I’ll let you know what the verdict is 

[OriginalMrC]

Do we need a separate thread for tribulations?

[Maximus Decimus]

3 hours ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

I also thought it raised an interesting point at the end, concerning whether the fame and publicity generated by the internet sleuths on the hunt may have unwittingly contributed to a narcissistic psychopath's decision to escalate from killing animals to humans.   

I don't have a particularly fond opinion of sleuths...

[Adelaide Tiger]

Just had Mothers Day this Sunday gone.  Went to a pub/hotel for a family meal.  On the Specials Menu was Beef Wellington, it wasn’t the fact that the trial was ongoing or the fact the the beef is obviously wrapped in mushrooms that put me off ordering it, it was the fact that it cost $49!!!!!!!

[Fly-By-TheWire]

39 minutes ago, Adelaide Tiger said:

Just had Mothers Day this Sunday gone.  Went to a pub/hotel for a family meal.  On the Specials Menu was Beef Wellington, it wasn’t the fact that the trial was ongoing or the fact the the beef is obviously wrapped in mushrooms that put me off ordering it, it was the fact that it cost $49!!!!!!!

Presumably Mother's Day is later in the year over in Adelaide?   Otherwise, if you missed Mother's Day by two months (it's March in the UK) then I'm kind of thinking any poisoning of your Wellington may have mitigating circumstances .

[Maximus Decimus]

I was amazed to find out today that the defence are still sticking with the idea that she got the mushrooms from an Asian grocer but that she can't seem to remember which one (how many Asian grocers are there in rural Victoria?). 

There are obvious problems with this. It sounds like an obvious lie. I could pretty much tell you any shop I'd been in recently, especially one I don't frequent often. It also raises the question of why there hasn't been a public health emergency. Are we to believe that an Asian grocer shop had packed one random bag of death cap mushrooms?

[Wolford6]

On the face of it, this trial should deliver a straightforward verdict. However, its progress will be of interest to many Bradfordians and offer a nervous few weeks for our City of Culture cheerleaders.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/25160736.four-people-go-trial-seven-hour-pro-gaza-rooftop-protest/

Bradford has a 30% Muslim population; its community has  organised and maintains a very strong  campaign to protest and raise funds on behalf of the people of Gaza.

As I understand it, if there is no clear majority, a Judge can accept a verdict either way if there is a 10:2 split in the vote from the Jury. 

Assuming demographic principles apply to the selection of Jury Members there should be three or four Bradford Muslims within the twelve members.

 

 

Edited May 13, 2025 by Wolford6

[Adelaide Tiger]

18 hours ago, Fly-By-TheWire said:

Presumably Mother's Day is later in the year over in Adelaide?   Otherwise, if you missed Mother's Day by two months (it's March in the UK) then I'm kind of thinking any poisoning of your Wellington may have mitigating circumstances .

Yes, Mothers Day in Australia is later in the year than the UK.

[Wolford6]

On 13/05/2025 at 18:20, Wolford6 said:

On the face of it, this trial should deliver a straightforward verdict. However, its progress will be of interest to many Bradfordians and offer a nervous few weeks for our City of Culture cheerleaders.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/25160736.four-people-go-trial-seven-hour-pro-gaza-rooftop-protest/

 

Fortunately, it ended relatively peacefully.

https://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/25184881.security-staff-called-amid-uproar-bradford-crown-court-verdicts/

[Maximus Decimus]

One of the things that interests me about this trial, is the mass public fascination aspect. On one of the podcasts I listened to, it mentioned a comparison with the famous Lindy Chamberlain case of the 1980s.

From talking to people, it amazes me how many people just presume guilt because of the bizarre nature of the deaths. The initial fact of 5 people being at the meal, 4 of them dying or nearly dying and her not being badly sick is enough for her to be guilty.

You then see this pan out when hearing how they view the rest of the evidence. The fact that she disposed of the dehydrator is because she did it, a text message where she expresses frustration with 2 of the victims proves she had a motive etc.

In my opinion, if you imagine a scenario where she had accidentally caused people to be seriously ill, it's not hard to imagine that you would try and hide evidence that makes it your fault even without it being on purpose. It would be pretty embarrassing to cause the deaths of people.

That's not to say I think she's definitely innocent, I don't. It's more that there is a bit of a witchhunt vibe to the way some of the evidence is viewed.

The ultimate key still remains whether they can prove that she ate infected beef, even if it was a small amount. If they can, I might be more inclined to think of it as a tragic accident where she got lucky.

[Maximus Decimus]

On a bit of a separate note, if we take the most generous scenario, that being that she foraged for mushrooms (which appears clear) and was not aware that they were deathcap mushrooms and then as a result it caused the deaths of 3 people, is she in any way still culpable?

After all, her carelessness would have caused the deaths of 3 people. Is there not a manslaughter aspect?

[Maximus Decimus]

So Erin Patterson has decided to take the stand which is huge news in this case.

Personally, I can't see the logic behind it. From what I've heard, I don't think the prosecution has proved their case. A lot of their evidence about when and where she got the mushrooms and why she might have had it in for her in-laws etc is flimsy at best. We're still where we were at the beginning, with a dodgy looking scenario but essentially no proof.

Her taking the stand is very risky because she both sides agree that she has seriously lied to police during this trial. Therefore, any explanations she comes up with will be torn apart by the defence, who will just be able to keep repeating how she lied before.

All I can think of is two possibilities: either Erin wanted to speak against her counsel's wishes, or they believe she has to convince the jury that she lied because she was scared and mortified rather than trying to cover up a murder.

After all, a lot of people I speak to about it still think her disposing of the dehydrator and then lying about ever having one is essentially proof of guilt. I think it can be explained if she was trying to avoid everybody thinking it was her fault, and maybe they've decided she needs to convince them of this.

[Maximus Decimus]

On a slightly separate issue, I've always been interested in the Scottish system where they have 'not proven'.

Whilst I think it is a good qualifier in comparison to a not guilty verdict, I wonder what effect on the number of guilty verdicts. It gives jurors an extra option, and one where they can sit on the fence.

I'm so indecisive I'd probably take it every time.

 

[CanaBull]

1 minute ago, Maximus Decimus said:

On a slightly separate issue, I've always been interested in the Scottish system where they have 'not proven'.

Whilst I think it is a good qualifier in comparison to a not guilty verdict, I wonder what effect on the number of guilty verdicts. It gives jurors an extra option, and one where they can sit on the fence.

I'm so indecisive I'd probably take it every time.

 

Always found it quite curious how sure people can be of their indecisiveness

[Maximus Decimus]

32 minutes ago, CanaBull said:

Always found it quite curious how sure people can be of their indecisiveness

Alan Partridge voice on: I used to be indecisive but now I'm not so sure...