Relegation thread

[Gerrumonside ref]

Discuss all your opinions about Super League relegation.

[yipyee]

Lowest IMG points to be relegated?

[Padge]

H. Stottle has just sent out for a giant box of kleenex.

[american]

I don't like p&r. In America i feel like our sports are super healthy and vibrant without it. does it suck when the same teams are at the bottom? yes. but it creates stories and dialogue and engages fans and no one is truly at the bottom forever. with p&r, the teams who are relegate struggle to return to anywhere near the top, especially in a sport like rugby league where the pyramid is very very clearly not deep. 

[Chrispmartha]

I would genuinely love the game to have the finance, the infrastructure, clubs and players to be able to support a 3 or 4 league structure with P&R between them. It hasn’t, so it shouldn’t, just like many other sports.

[gingerjon]

12 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

I would genuinely love the game to have the finance, the infrastructure, clubs and players to be able to support a 3 or 4 league structure with P&R between them. It hasn’t, so it shouldn’t, just like many other sports.

Wood's review should be looking at the game's minimum standards especially around stadiums, finance and club infrastructure. It won't because that would put expense on the clubs.

But if you address those then you can move to P&R with enforced standards at each level as appropriate.

[Harry Stottle]

8 hours ago, Padge said:

H. Stottle has just sent out for a giant box of kleenex.

Rude, crude and socially unattractive, which is no more than I would expect from you and those who find such comments funny.

[Expatknight]

6 hours ago, american said:

I don't like p&r. In America i feel like our sports are super healthy and vibrant without it. does it suck when the same teams are at the bottom? yes. but it creates stories and dialogue and engages fans and no one is truly at the bottom forever. with p&r, the teams who are relegate struggle to return to anywhere near the top, especially in a sport like rugby league where the pyramid is very very clearly not deep. 

This isn’t America, throughout our sporting history we have had leagues in many sports where there is promotion and relegation, there is always the chance that a team with aspirations can get promoted, that is part of our culture, this is Great Britain, not America, not Australia, we have already lost a lot of what we used to be proud of in this country. 

[Harry Stottle]

6 hours ago, american said:

I don't like p&r. In America i feel like our sports are super healthy and vibrant without it. does it suck when the same teams are at the bottom? yes. but it creates stories and dialogue and engages fans and no one is truly at the bottom forever. with p&r, the teams who are relegate struggle to return to anywhere near the top, especially in a sport like rugby league where the pyramid is very very clearly not deep. 

In recent years, to get relegated and return stronger, Hull KR and they were still bottom dwellers in SL for a time, Leigh and Wakefield, all doing quite well now wouldn't you say?

Kind of throws your theory up in the air, yes it used to happen and could so again with elevating teams who have not prepared for promotion and are not yet ready to take the step up to SL.

[Chrispmartha]

9 minutes ago, Expatknight said:

This isn’t America, throughout our sporting history we have had leagues in many sports where there is promotion and relegation, there is always the chance that a team with aspirations can get promoted, that is part of our culture, this is Great Britain, not America, not Australia, we have already lost a lot of what we used to be proud of in this country. 

Lovely stuff.

That doesn’t mean its viable and the best thing for the sport at the moment.

 

I dread to ask what you think we've lost to be ‘proud’ of, in a sporting sense.

[Wakefield Ram]

7 hours ago, american said:

I don't like p&r. In America i feel like our sports are super healthy and vibrant without it. does it suck when the same teams are at the bottom? yes. but it creates stories and dialogue and engages fans and no one is truly at the bottom forever. with p&r, the teams who are relegate struggle to return to anywhere near the top, especially in a sport like rugby league where the pyramid is very very clearly not deep. 

But in the NFL, there's the draft which helps level up the competition.

[Charlie]

12 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

In recent years, to get relegated and return stronger, Hull KR and they were still bottom dwellers in SL for a time, Leigh and Wakefield, all doing quite well now wouldn't you say?

Kind of throws your theory up in the air, yes it used to happen and could so again with elevating teams who have not prepared for promotion and are not yet ready to take the step up to SL.

Key there is having very rich owners 

[Chrispmartha]

Just now, Charlie said:

Key there is having very rich owners 

And he's cherry picked 3 that have worked ignoring all the years it hasn't, and with Leigh it didn’t work quite a few times.

Wakefield were also promoted using IMG system not P&R.

[lucky 7]

9 hours ago, yipyee said:

Lowest IMG points to be relegated?

Well if Salford Red Devils don't get releagated there is seriously something wrong with the points system

[HawkMan]

7 hours ago, american said:

I don't like p&r. In America i feel like our sports are super healthy and vibrant without it. does it suck when the same teams are at the bottom? yes. but it creates stories and dialogue and engages fans and no one is truly at the bottom forever. with p&r, the teams who are relegate struggle to return to anywhere near the top, especially in a sport like rugby league where the pyramid is very very clearly not deep. 

I don't know much about American sports, but I've done a bit of digging and found a Minor League Baseball team called Charlotte Knights in Nth Carolina.

Suppose their owners felt the people of Charlotte deserved the best team they could afford, and persuaded some world class MLB talent to join them.  Charlotte then became a very good team, and pundits agreed they could beat a lot of MLB teams. Unfortunately MLB is a closed league,  so Charlotte could never break into it and Minor League is where they'll stay. This situation goes totally against the British line of thought,  fans here dream of seeing their club progress upwards,  the hope is what keeps them coming  back. But in the US , teams are franchises,  businesses,  which drop out of a major league if they go bust, or relocate for financial reasons. This situation is an anathema to Brits in the sports field.  We would find it just as bizarre if we had a system that regulated High St shops, the one shop that made the least profit was relegated from the High Street,  regardless of profit or not, but they had to leave for some back street and replaced by some other business who may actually not be ready. Crazy,  of course it shouldn't happen, they're businesses not sports teams, and our leagues are full of sports teams not businesses,  making money sure,  aspirations to get bigger and successful as businesses too but primarily competing sports teams not business franchises.

So yes to p+r where it isn't detrimental, the IMG system is just about working and I'd keep it as it is, Salford's situation should not cloud the issue or derail the current set up or lead to 14 teams IMO.

Edited August 13, 2025 by HawkMan

[Anita Bath]

6 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

I don't know much about American sports, but I've done a bit of digging and found a Minor League Baseball team called Charlotte Knights in Nth Carolina.

Suppose their owners felt the people of Charlotte deserved the best team they could afford, and persuaded some world class MLB talent to join them.  Charlotte then became a very good team, and pundits agreed they could beat a lot of MLB teams. Unfortunately MLB is a closed league,  so Charlotte could never break into it and Minor League is where they'll stay. This situation goes totally against the British line of thought,  fans here dream of seeing their club progress upwards,  the hope is what keeps them coming  back. But in the US , teams are franchises,  businesses,  which drop out of a major league if they go bust, or relocate for financial reasons. This situation is an anathema to Brits in the sports field.  We would find it just as bizarre if we had a system that regulated High St shops, the one shop that made the least profit was relegated from the High Street,  regardless of profit or not, but they had to leave for some back street and replaced by some other business who may actually not be ready. Crazy,  of course it shouldn't happen, they're businesses not sports teams, and our leagues are full of sports teams not businesses,  making money sure,  aspirations to get bigger and successful as businesses too but primarily competing sports teams not business franchises.

There are books written on how cities got shafted in expansions of NHL and MLB because of back door deals. Something P and R aviods.

Incidentally Arsenal never won their spot in footballs top tier, under P&R they finished 5th behind local rivals Spurs but got admitted to the top tier by old men in suits behind closed doors. That could never happen in RL though could it

[Harry Stottle]

34 minutes ago, Charlie said:

Key there is having very rich owners 

Yes it is Charlie, and it has been proven to work in recent times.

As I have said I am not a fan of the sudden increase to 14 teams, as many as 4 teams - definitely 2 - will be making the transition with very little time to gather a squad and probably more importantly finance one with reduced funding, and it was bad enough when only one team had to find SL quality players that were already not contracted now we could have 2, 3, or even 4 teams scrambling, albeit I keep reading where York and Oldham are signing 'better players' nothing coming out of Bradford, London or Toulouse or I may have missed it.

[gingerjon]

P&R is such a part of British culture that it didn't exist in the first eighty years of rugby league, the first hundred or so years of organised rugby union, the first hundred and fifty years of county cricket, and in none of the international competitions the British invented and organised.

Soccer's pyramid didn't start until 1987 and was only completed about five years ago.

[HawkMan]

14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

P&R is such a part of British culture that it didn't exist in the first eighty years of rugby league, the first hundred or so years of organised rugby union, the first hundred and fifty years of county cricket, and in none of the international competitions the British invented and organised.

Soccer's pyramid didn't start until 1987 and was only completed about five years ago.

Really? Looking up in Rothmans, in 1924/5 season 100 years ago:

Division 1 relegated Preston NE and Nottingham Forest 

Division 2 promoted Leicester and Manchester united 

Relegated Crystal Palace and Coventry 

Division 3 North promoted Darlington,  seeking reelection Tranmere and Rotherham County

Division 3 South promoted Swansea,  seeking reelection Brentford and Merthyr Town. 

I never realised Rothmans was a work of fiction...apparently. 

[Padge]

8 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Really? Looking up in Rothmans, in 1924/5 season 100 years ago:

Division 1 relegated Preston NE and Nottingham Forest 

Division 2 promoted Leicester and Manchester united 

Relegated Crystal Palace and Coventry 

Division 3 North promoted Darlington,  seeking reelection Tranmere and Rotherham County

Division 3 South promoted Swansea,  seeking reelection Brentford and Merthyr Town. 

I never realised Rothmans was a work of fiction...apparently. 

I think you missed the word completed in GJ's post.

Nevermind.

 

Edited August 13, 2025 by Padge

[gingerjon]

8 minutes ago, HawkMan said:

Really? Looking up in Rothmans, in 1924/5 season 100 years ago:

Division 1 relegated Preston NE and Nottingham Forest 

Division 2 promoted Leicester and Manchester united 

Relegated Crystal Palace and Coventry 

Division 3 North promoted Darlington,  seeking reelection Tranmere and Rotherham County

Division 3 South promoted Swansea,  seeking reelection Brentford and Merthyr Town. 

I never realised Rothmans was a work of fiction...apparently. 

Fascinating.

Now, read what I wrote: the pyramid did not begin until 1987. Promotion and relegation was internal to the league.

Same was true of other leagues. For example you could go up and down between, say, Northern League divisions but if you wanted to go up from there, or someone from under wanted to join, then it was applications and elections.

[JohnM]

1 hour ago, Harry Stottle said:

Rude, crude and socially unattractive, which is no more than I would expect from you and those who find such comments funny.

Agreed. Its so"Mr. Beaumont", isn't it.

[HawkMan]

7 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

Fascinating.

Now, read what I wrote: the pyramid did not begin until 1987. Promotion and relegation was internal to the league.

Same was true of other leagues. For example you could go up and down between, say, Northern League divisions but if you wanted to go up from there, or someone from under wanted to join, then it was applications and elections.

Okay fair enough,  my apologies I didn't realise that. So if you were in the Essex senior league you couldn't get promoted to the Southern League or Isthmian ? 

[Harry Stottle]

1 hour ago, Chrispmartha said:

And he's cherry picked 3 that have worked ignoring all the years it hasn't, and with Leigh it didn’t work quite a few times.

Wakefield were also promoted using IMG system not P&R.

FFS Do you not read, and we have discussed this before, THIS IS THE NEW WAY OF GETTING STABILITY IN SUPER LEAGUE, SPEND AND PREPARE BEFORHAND, not the old way of waiting to see who wins the GF or the Middle 8's as was, yes Leigh failed before by using that old method.

And Wakefield prepared the season beforehand, Matt Ellis saw to that.

I have said this a few times are you are purposefully just being awkward or have a memory like a sieve.

Seems like @Tommygilf, @dkw and @LeeF have the same selective memory as you.

 

Edited August 13, 2025 by Harry Stottle

[Click]

3 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

FFS Do you not read, and we have discussed this before, THIS IS THE NEW WAY OF GETTING STABILITY IN SUPER LEAGUE, SPEND AND PREPARE BEFORHAND, not the old way of waiting to see who wins the GF or the Middle 8's as was, yes Leigh failed before by using that old method.

And Wakefield prepared the season beforehand, Matt Ellis saw to that.

I have said this a few times are you are purposefully just being awkward or have a memory like a sieve.

 

 

Leigh failed using both of those methods previously