Ruck Speed History

[Maximus Decimus]

One thing that struck me in the build up to this series was the discussion over the ruck speed and how much quicker it is in Australia. I suspect this is something that has been statistically found to be true, but I can't find anything detailed. My question is how did this get to be the case?

I can distinctly remember prior to the 1997 WCC, some British pundits saying they were worried about the difference in the speed of the PTB between England and Australia and it was mentioned as roughly 1 second. I've always presumed this was down to athleticism and standard of the game instead of anything else.

Moving on around 10-15 years, I remember the big controversy that came into the game when they introduced the idea of controlling the ruck. I'm pretty sure it was pioneered by Huddersfield and/or Wigan, and to the untrained mind it looked like they were just allowing teams to hold down for longer under the pretence of ruck control. That aligned with the introduction of the wrestle, certainly affected the product in a negative way IMO. Now it was my understanding at the time that this was something that had come in from Australia, alongside things like extra focus on completion rates and building pressure which also had a negative effect on the spectacle of the game.

If this is true, and I'm very open to the idea that I have got this wrong, how have we ended up with a slower PTB than Australia? How is it our interpretation of the rules that seem to be defending the idea of slowing the game down now?  There was a time when SL was the more entertaining version of the 2 and the NRL was much more predictable. Ours had more interest about it, with more passion and teams chancing their arm etc.

This seems to have flipped completely. They still care about those things, but have a quality of athlete that is able to create exciting play despite it. We on the other hand, seem to have become more predictable.

Is it just a case that we have reverted back to 1997 and it is the lower standard of play that is resulting in a slower ruck speed or is it because we are defending it as the way we think the game should be played?

[phiggins]

From memory, it seems that Australian coaches came over and put more emphasis on the wrestle, with Maguire being the most prominent. Unfortunately, Maguire and the NRL have moved on and we haven't.

Unfortunately, we just don't police the ruck at all. See third / fourth players into a tackle that do not make any contact with the ball carrier, and are there purely to slow the restart down. That needs to be dealt with, possibly calling held as soon as defenders join purely to lean on their team mates. Refs are too lenient with flops as well.

The ref pinged both teams in the NRL grand final with 6 agains, early in the game. Our refs don't have the nerve, for fear of being called whistle happy. 

And the less said about what we let players get away with on actually playing the ball, the better.

In the refs' defence, there is also a culture in SL of players being more bothered about winning decisions than winning rucks and getting on with the game. 

[hunsletgreenandgold]

The interpreation now, and how it differs between SL and NRL seems to be as straightforward as this: 

NRL - The ref deems the tackle to be complete, defenders must instantly release the tackled player 

SL - Nuance around whether the tackle was dominant or not, but regardless, players are allowed to peel (one by one) off instead of instant dropping off. Also allowed to continue altering the tackled players position (eg put on back) even after the player hits the ground

 

I do think there's an argument for a dominant tackle to be rewarded with a slower release, but because so many rucks are so ridiculously slow anyway, it's hard to see that interpretation at the moment. NRL's approach is at least a lot more consistent. 

Edited October 27, 2025 by hunsletgreenandgold

[Damien]

With the World Cup in Australia next year, with predominantly NRL players and referees, then all of this is certainly an important consideration if we wish to do well.

With good profits from the Ashes we should certainly be investing in our refereeing standards and becoming more aligned with the NRL with cleaner rucks. Its the single most thing that has the biggest effect on the entire game.

To do this certainly needs strong direction from the RFL and if it means getting someone across from the NRL, like we did with Greg McCallum in the 1990s, then so be it. We need a major reset in terms of this and refereeing standard generally.

This will benefit us not just internationally but in terms of attractiveness of the competition.

[Maximus Decimus]

22 minutes ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

The interpreation now, and how it differs between SL and NRL seems to be as straightforward as this: 

NRL - The ref deems the tackle to be complete, defenders must instantly release the tackled player 

SL - Nuance around whether the tackle was dominant or not, but regardless, players are allowed to peel (one by one) off instead of instant dropping off. Also allowed to continue altering the tackled players position (eg put on back) even after the player hits the ground

 

I do think there's an argument for a dominant tackle to be rewarded with a slower release, but because so many rucks are so ridiculously slow anyway, it's hard to see that interpretation at the moment. NRL's approach is at least a lot more consistent. 

I suppose this is my point, didn't we get the whole dominant thing from Australia?

How is it they've abandoned it, and we've kept it?

[hunsletgreenandgold]

5 minutes ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I suppose this is my point, didn't we get the whole dominant thing from Australia?

How is it they've abandoned it, and we've kept it?

I think they realised it's too nuanced and open to interpretation which hampers the game, both on the field and as a viewing spectacle. I watch union as well and whilst don't get me wrong the scrum interpretations can sometimes leave you scratching your head, the ruck is well policed and you as a viewer and the players know what is/isn't allowed. 

 

I will just add, I don't think the NRL strike the right balance either - great tackles must be rewarded, but as I said in my last post, they are very consistent and the 6 again is a punishment that keeps players honest about not infringing. 

Edited October 27, 2025 by hunsletgreenandgold

[Leyther_Matt]

6 hours ago, Maximus Decimus said:

I suppose this is my point, didn't we get the whole dominant thing from Australia?

How is it they've abandoned it, and we've kept it?

I think it’s just another example of the Aussies evolving as time goes on, and we’re just in a permanent state of trying to catch up. By definition we’re never going to overtake them if all we’re going to do is try and copy their (old) homework.

The aligning of refereeing interpretations just makes sense and needs to happen immediately next season. Probably applies to quite a few things in that sense, actually. 

[Maximus Decimus]

1 hour ago, Leyther_Matt said:

I think it’s just another example of the Aussies evolving as time goes on, and we’re just in a permanent state of trying to catch up. By definition we’re never going to overtake them if all we’re going to do is try and copy their (old) homework.

The aligning of refereeing interpretations just makes sense and needs to happen immediately next season. Probably applies to quite a few things in that sense, actually. 

I suppose it's just a reflection of where the power in the game lies. It's natural due to the fact that they have more money and all that.

It just struck me as odd, that we're left with a relic of a rule that nobody really loved when it was brought in in the first place. 

[The Blues Ox]

18 hours ago, phiggins said:

Unfortunately, we just don't police the ruck at all. See third / fourth players into a tackle that do not make any contact with the ball carrier, and are there purely to slow the restart down.

This is probably the main difference. As someone who has been involved in coaching, I can tell players to watch any Saints game to learn how to slow the play the ball down by bringing a 3rd or 4th player in to the tackle. They are by far the best team in SL at it and in my opinion this is the reason they still managed to do as well as they did this season despite having a team that lacks a lot of quality. It just leads to ridiculously slow rucks and really should not be allowed but while players are allowed to get away with it then it will continue to be coached over here.

Ultimately it is attacking flair that sells the game and over here we have basically bread a set of robots who have all the flair coached out of them because they are constantly playing against defences that are always set and all playing to the same structure in attack.

[phiggins]

20 minutes ago, The Blues Ox said:

This is probably the main difference. As someone who has been involved in coaching, I can tell players to watch any Saints game to learn how to slow the play the ball down by bringing a 3rd or 4th player in to the tackle. They are by far the best team in SL at it and in my opinion this is the reason they still managed to do as well as they did this season despite having a team that lacks a lot of quality. It just leads to ridiculously slow rucks and really should not be allowed but while players are allowed to get away with it then it will continue to be coached over here.

Ultimately it is attacking flair that sells the game and over here we have basically bread a set of robots who have all the flair coached out of them because they are constantly playing against defences that are always set and all playing to the same structure in attack.

I do wonder whether it has impacted on the quality of forwards we produce as well. You don't need to win a collision any more to be able to slow the play the ball down, and there's always more time to get back the ten. So you can kick long, pin teams back and rinse and repeat.

[Damien]

interesting that there have been NRL matches pretty much the speed that the Kangaroos are complaining about:

 

 

[Dave T]

I do think the huge disparity in ptb speed in that 1st Test (please can we call them Test Matches instead of Game One etc?) is quite telling. I hate the way our refs police the rucks - or rather don't bother, and have allowed the advantage to swing back to the defence.

From memory it was 3.4s for England and 4.1s for Australia. My interpretation of that is that the Aussies could have held down for longer, but their rhythm is based more around that 3.5s which appears to be standard in the NRL. I don't believe it is because we are masters of holding down, the Aussies are slow, or there was refereeing bias. 

It feels like we should expect ptb's around 3.5s this weekend, and that may be a real challenge for us. I really don't like the way our refs just try and ignore things now, as though that makes the game flow better. It clearly isn't that our refs are not capable, it is clearly a directive and a conscious approach. 

[Maximus Decimus]

5 hours ago, Dave T said:

I do think the huge disparity in ptb speed in that 1st Test (please can we call them Test Matches instead of Game One etc?) is quite telling. I hate the way our refs police the rucks - or rather don't bother, and have allowed the advantage to swing back to the defence.

From memory it was 3.4s for England and 4.1s for Australia. My interpretation of that is that the Aussies could have held down for longer, but their rhythm is based more around that 3.5s which appears to be standard in the NRL. I don't believe it is because we are masters of holding down, the Aussies are slow, or there was refereeing bias. 

It feels like we should expect ptb's around 3.5s this weekend, and that may be a real challenge for us. I really don't like the way our refs just try and ignore things now, as though that makes the game flow better. It clearly isn't that our refs are not capable, it is clearly a directive and a conscious approach. 

And one that came from Australia, nobody liked and now we've kept!

[Maximus Decimus]

6 hours ago, Damien said:

interesting that there have been NRL matches pretty much the speed that the Kangaroos are complaining about:

 

 

That's one way of looking at it, another is that out of 213 games (and 426 teams) there was only one team with a ruck slower than Saturday.