Sat 1st Nov: The Ashes (Game 2): England v Australia KO 2.30pm (BBC)

[Archie Gordon]

2 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

Way hing the second part of the chasing history documentary makes it seem like Wane went over board on the history and occasion, showing clips of Churchill etc.

Im sure the players understand- maybe concentrate on coaching and game plan a bit more this week eh?

Chasing History makes Wane and Tomkins look a bit one dimensional. It's just cliches.

[Chrispmartha]

8 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Chasing History makes Wane and Tomkins look a bit one dimensional. It's just cliches.

And all that stuff can actually weigh on the players - they looked nervous on Saturday not fired up.

[Hopie]

Matty Lees played with an injury, Walmsley didn't look fit based on how he defended at the start of the second half and then got taken off as he was gassed, hopefully there are some serious discussions about fitness to play this week. 

[lemmy xaan]

22 minutes ago, Archie Gordon said:

Chasing History makes Wane and Tomkins look a bit one dimensional. It's just cliches.

I found Chasing History interesting for all the wrong reasons.

The fact that you know the end of the story makes it a very tough watch.  I agree that what we saw of the Churchill-history psychological stuff feels to be an irrelevant and slightly babyish distraction. Wane loves war history but I think it's not the right angle for these young sportspeople. If it was meant to fire them up, it did the exact opposite and they got onto the pitch with a weird head-mix of befuddlement, shyness and tenseness. Wane and Tomkins seemed to identify this at half-time but they also then seem as if they're unsure what to do about it like all their players. Finally, the optics in that film are telling: the Eng team looks frail and child-like; it's palpable how there's no enforcer-leader sitting around the semi-circle barking cometh-the-moment remedies. Then cut to Cleary, Yeo etc and they all have a kind of 45-year old scary passive-aggressive mastermind vibe - even the green shirts look terrifying. Topped with it feeling like we lack the dark genius type of coach - but I can't say Wayne Bennett did any better.

On the issue of shirts, we have sacrificed the important legacy - the iconic red/dark blue V from the last time we won the ashes. 

[gavin7094]

Shaun Wane picked what he thought was his best 17 last Saturday.  How can that have changed significantly since?  Have these other players, who weren't considered good enough 4 days ago, suddenly got much better?

That team have played together now and should be better for the experience.  They certainly should be more motivated as a result.

Now is not the time to make 3 or 4 changes.  That would simply suggest blind panic.

[tiffers]

1 hour ago, lemmy xaan said:

I found Chasing History interesting for all the wrong reasons.

The fact that you know the end of the story makes it a very tough watch.  I agree that what we saw of the Churchill-history psychological stuff feels to be an irrelevant and slightly babyish distraction. Wane loves war history but I think it's not the right angle for these young sportspeople. If it was meant to fire them up, it did the exact opposite and they got onto the pitch with a weird head-mix of befuddlement, shyness and tenseness. Wane and Tomkins seemed to identify this at half-time but they also then seem as if they're unsure what to do about it like all their players. Finally, the optics in that film are telling: the Eng team looks frail and child-like; it's palpable how there's no enforcer-leader sitting around the semi-circle barking cometh-the-moment remedies. Then cut to Cleary, Yeo etc and they all have a kind of 45-year old scary passive-aggressive mastermind vibe - even the green shirts look terrifying. Topped with it feeling like we lack the dark genius type of coach - but I can't say Wayne Bennett did any better.

On the issue of shirts, we have sacrificed the important legacy - the iconic red/dark blue V from the last time we won the ashes. 

It's fascinating to watch it knowing the outcome.

I thought George Williams came across well and presents a confidence and held a presence that seemed comfortable with the pressure.

Given the weekend, I am surprised they ran with the interview between Welsby and Williams. It didn't portray Welsby overly well I thought, especially when you are probably trying to protect him from the heat after the weekend.

[George Watt]

8 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

We were Reece Walsh's right arm away from 2 more scores at the weekend. We played awful but we still left points out there IMO. 

Are you talking about attempted  passes from Wardle to Lewis and Farnworth to Welsby which Walsh stopped with his arm? Thought they hit his left arm when I watched the match as both passes were from left to right. 

Just had a look at a recording of the match and both hit his left arm. 

Looks like I haven't got amnesia yet!

Edited October 28, 2025 by George Watt

[hunsletgreenandgold]

Just now, George Watt said:

Are you talking about attempted  passes from Wardle to Lewis and Farnworth to Welsby which Walsh stopped with his arm? Thought they hit his left arm when I watched the match as both passes were from right to left. 

Just had a look at a recording of the match and both hit his left arm. 

Looks like I haven't got amnesia yet!

I didn't actually check which arm it was lol - I stand corrected. 

[George Watt]

1 minute ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

I didn't actually check which arm it was lol - I stand corrected. 

Both passes were from left to right so I have corrected that. Sorry.

[17 stone giant]

The New Goodison Park crowd is going to pick England up and throw them over the winning line.

England by 1 to 6 points.

[Jonty58]

Australia with quick play the ball by a big score.

England will improve from last week.

I think Australia will improve more.

[moorside roughyed]

I'd love England to win but honestly I can't see it TBH. I see a similar scoreline as the first game. I just think Australia are superior to England unfortunately.

[EagleEyePie]

It's a difficult one to judge in terms of the changes that could be made to the team. There have been plenty of complaints about the front row, but looking at the stats and after watching the game again it's not like the Aussie pack were much better than us. I think that suggests we're not too far off if players can play to their best. I thought when it came to the middles we were let down more by poor individual efforts in defence. A few from McMeeken, a very notable and one from Walmsley. We allowed the game to open up a bit too much and then a lot of issues were with our edge defence. For that reason I'd probably keep Lees and Havard in the team, but I'd consider Oledzki for Walmsley. That does carry some risk, as Walmsley was our best carrier of the ball and has the quickest play the ball speed, and Wane definitely values that quick ruck speed, but I worry too much about how easily he can be targeted in defence. I'd probably just consider adding Smithies to the team to add some solid defence and hopefully a bit more aggression.

The problem with trying to make changes with the edges is usually it takes repetition to get things right. You can bring in someone new because you've identified an issue but it often means there's less familiarity and cohesion there. For that reason I think we'd see consistency on the edges. I'm just not sure who we bring in that improves things. Watkins is no better than Bateman. Trout has done well in the back row at Leigh but I've seen him caught out at times due to his lateral movement too. Smithies has played on the right edge but I've seen him struggle there at times when he was at Wigan. Maybe we could switch KPP and Bateman and have KPP defend the right edge, as that seems to be his more natural position and I do think he's a stronger defender than Bateman.

I thought both halves tried their best in a difficult game where there wasn't much fluidity. Yes, sometimes it was down to them but also the wayward passing from Knowles and the sluggish play of Welsby didn't help either. I do think we should bring Smith in to try to improve our kicking game and end of sets. It's not a guarantee, because Smith hasn't been anywhere near his best this season, but like Williams he has played well at international level consistently. I also think the Smith and Williams combination has been a bit more dynamic when playing together. They don't just play split halves, they move across the field. You're just as likely to see Williams as 2nd receiver on the left edge as the right, with Smith being a more traditional 7. I think it works well. The only downside is not having Radley, as I think a ball playing 13 helps Williams and Smith in terms of their movement. When Wiliams do combine on one edge we'd often have Radley and Welsby as playmakers on the other side to offer genuine options on the other side. Not having Radley makes things a little bit harder.

The big call is probably going to be whether it's Welsby or Brimson at fullback. We can definitely improve on that performance even if Wane picks the exact same team again, but Welsby looked jaded.

I'd probably go for something like:

Brimson; Young, Farnworth, Wardle, Johnstone; Williams, Smith; Lees, Clark, McMeeken; Bateman, KPP, Knowles

Bench: Litten, Oledzki, Havard, Smithies

Definitely arguments for a few different inclusions though. Aside from Farnworth there aren't many players who you'd think "he definitely has to play."

[MattSantos]

19 hours ago, GeordieSaint said:

England to come storming back and to win by 1-6 points. 

Echoed

[Alan Robertson]

England to win 33-10

 

(Unfortunately, that's not what I really believe. I was just reminiscing).

[N2022]

In my non-expert opinion, if we are going to win, we need to get the crowd going from the off, some big early yards from the forwards, less pointless lateral running from the ptb, more depth from the backs, discipline, well judged offloads to create broken play opportunities, to win the high ball situations to be in serious contention, and probably then a bit of luck to go our way - bounce of the ball or some such to edge it.

[WN83]

Total and utter blind optimism I'm sure but the closer the game gets, the more I think we'll give a much better account of ourselves on Saturday. I think we'll get a bit more mobility in to the pack and the players will be stung from last Saturday and will be a lot less respectful of what the Aussies can do to us. We need to start better, get the crowd on board and work from there. I'm not saying we'll win but I think we'll come away happier than last week at least. 

[Harry Stottle]

On 28/10/2025 at 10:54, StandOffHalf said:

I think the tiny soccer in-goals at Everton could present problems. It may stifle the Australians to an extent, as they wouldn't be used to such limiting and dangerous playing conditions.

Never bothered them at Old Trafford No 6.

[Harry Stottle]

23 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

Welsby, Lewis, Havard, Lees, Walmsley out.

Brimson, Smith, Oledski, Smithies, Watkins in.

Mobility the key for me.

So you favour keeping the searing pace of Bateman Archie?

[Harry Stottle]

23 hours ago, Thunder Road said:

Afraid Australia could actually run riot.

Not sure what the weather is going to be like.

 

Cold driving rain with a strong wind could help us.

I would drop Welsby Lewis and Walmsley .

 

I don't understand that this inclement weather situation will help us Thunder, apart from February and maybe the early part of March most of our players are used to not so adverse conditions, and the younger ones have mostly only ever played in the 'summer era' even in the community game and 'the weather' has not done us many favours since '71, we have never won a series v Aus on hone soil in those 54 years.

[Harry Stottle]

23 hours ago, hunsletgreenandgold said:

We do need to consider the ruck speed Grant Atkins will have this game played at. There is a part of me that wonders if Wane and therefore England got that bogged down in slowing the ruck and playing to 'our rules' they blew themselves out with those 3/4 man efforts every tackle in the first 20 minutes. A fast ruck won't allow for that and it's not like the England players have fitness issues. The flipside of course is this is the way Aus are used to playing and know all about how to take advantage, whether that be winning penalties because England still try holding down or catching defenders either not square or still retreating. Definitely be a different game that's for sure. 

I think it was much easier for the Aussies to adapt to slower rucks 'a la SL', than it will be for England to step up the speed of the ruck area to match the speed what the Aussies are used to playing week in week out.

[Harry Stottle]

20 hours ago, Archie Gordon said:

Agreed.

Walsh is an unbelievable attacking talent but we somehow managed to make him look like a defensive superstar too - and he isn't.

He didn't do to badly in the GF did he?

And measured against Walmersly I know which one I would sooner have at the back if my team.

[hunsletgreenandgold]

7 minutes ago, Harry Stottle said:

I think it was much easier for the Aussies to adapt to slower rucks 'a la SL', than it will be for England to step up the speed of the ruck area to match the speed what the Aussies are used to playing week in week out.

Agreed, H. 

[Blind side johnny]

20 hours ago, faithfulbyname said:

According to the stats I saw, at Wembley we actually had a quicker average ruck speed than Australia

Aussie ref this time!

[Harry Stottle]

14 hours ago, Hopie said:

Matty Lees played with an injury, Walmsley didn't look fit based on how he defended at the start of the second half and then got taken off as he was gassed, hopefully there are some serious discussions about fitness to play this week. 

Quote Wane on Friday "We've had a really good week all fit and raring to go, we have even had to hold them back on intensity"

So in all this you believe that our esteemed coach, has picked a half fit Walmersley and an injured Lees?

You know what Hopie I wouldn't disagree with you he would do that!