England Depth

[Tommygilf]

Lot of talk around our problems in the Ashes obviously. A lot of comment about 2nd and 3rd string Aussies being able to beat us and the quality in SL etc.

Who is you're top 5 English players in each position currently, what actually is our depth from 1 to 13?

[Spotty Herbert]

Depth is not a problem in the majority of areas. However, there is no depth at half back and our entire stock of full backs is either injury prone or very inexperienced at Senior level.

Do we have five English stand offs playing regular first team Super League? The only one I can think of after Lewis and Williams that is playing at a reasonably high standard is Gareth O'Brien and Leigh fans seem desperate for him to be replaced.

Similarly, after Smith and Connor we seem to be looking at Mark Sneyd (too old for internationals) or Whitby or Heyes who are still too inexperienced.

We need to stop playing overseas imports in spine positions.

Edited November 11 by Spotty Herbert

[Dunbar]

Personally I think the England 5th team would beat the Australian 4th team.

I don't have to provide any logical argument to back this up, it's just that if you know, you know.

[Dave T]

1 minute ago, Dunbar said:

Personally I think the England 5th team would beat the Australian 4th team.

I don't have to provide any logical argument to back this up, it's just that if you know, you know.

We'd stick 60 on them. No trouble.

[JM2010]

28 minutes ago, Spotty Herbert said:

Depth is not a problem in the majority of areas. However, there is no depth at half back and our entire stock of full backs is either injury prone or very inexperienced at Senior level.

Do we have five English stand offs playing regular first team Super League? The only one I can think of after Lewis and Williams that is playing at a reasonably high standard is Gareth O'Brien and Leigh fans seem desperate for him to be replaced.

Similarly, after Smith and Connor we seem to be looking at Mark Sneyd (too old for internationals) or Whitby or Heyes who are still too inexperienced.

We need to stop playing overseas imports in spine positions.

I think for the WC we need to just stop playing it safe. If some of the younger players as well as more established players have good seasons in 2026 then get them in the 17. 

These are the players could potentially come into the squad for the WC

Robertson, Martin, Gannon, Nicholson, Nsemba, Delaney, Pryce, Connor, Hanley, Eckersley, Farrimond, Radley, Thompson, Ashton, Whitby, O Neill, Litten.

That’s a big overhaul of the squad but if these players have big seasons they should be in the squad 

[Dunbar]

12 minutes ago, Dave T said:

We'd stick 60 on them. No trouble.

If we went up a gear. And that is if we wanted to. If we didn't put 60 on them then we obviously didn’t want to. But we could if we wanted to.

And repeat forever.

[WN83]

I don't think depth is an issue as such, it's the quality in the first 17 that isn't where it needs to be, especially in the spine positions. Had Walsh, Munster, Clearly and Grant swapped sides with their opposite numbers, England take the series IMO, so that says to me that we need to unearth some gems from somewhere, that can slip in to the first 17.

It's no quick fix though and it's tough to say how any player gets put under the required amount of pressure playing in this current version of superleague. You hate to lose talent but if Perth or another NRL side picked up kids like Harry Robertson, George Whitby, Jack Farrimond and Ewan Irwin and a couple of them made it big, we'd be in a far better position as a national side. 

 

[Damien]

2 hours ago, Dunbar said:

Personally I think the England 5th team would beat the Australian 4th team.

I don't have to provide any logical argument to back this up, it's just that if you know, you know.

What about if the Australian 4th team tried though?

[Dunbar]

1 minute ago, Damien said:

What about if the Australian 4th team tried though?

oh, that's different. If they went 'through the gears' we would lose by 60.

[phiggins]

3 hours ago, Spotty Herbert said:

We need to stop playing overseas imports in spine positions.

We need to produce players that are better than the imports

[Spotty Herbert]

It's a bit chicken and egg for me. It would be much easier to give young half backs SL experience and develop them if there weren't overseas players in their way. However, club owners and fans want successful teams, so they will always go with the tried and trusted option if they can.

[EagleEyePie]

1 hour ago, WN83 said:

I don't think depth is an issue as such, it's the quality in the first 17 that isn't where it needs to be, especially in the spine positions. Had Walsh, Munster, Clearly and Grant swapped sides with their opposite numbers, England take the series IMO, so that says to me that we need to unearth some gems from somewhere, that can slip in to the first 17.

It's no quick fix though and it's tough to say how any player gets put under the required amount of pressure playing in this current version of superleague. You hate to lose talent but if Perth or another NRL side picked up kids like Harry Robertson, George Whitby, Jack Farrimond and Ewan Irwin and a couple of them made it big, we'd be in a far better position as a national side. 

 

I don't think it's a surprise that we struggle to produce quality in the spine positions. We always have some really exciting young halves in the academies. The problem is that some make a breakthrough, become the next big thing and then struggle to fulfil their potential.

It's not surprising really when you consider they learn how to play against Super League defences rather than the best in the world. They are only going to be coached how to beat what is in front of them, how to break down the defence they will be playing against.

I think you see it quite often in Super League where players become almost pigeonholed into a particular role and stop developing other aspects of their game, or only develop new aspects of their game into their late 20's and early 30's when they start to age and are forced to alter their game to make up for what they can no longer do.

Not every English player is going to flourish in the NRL but not every talented Australian youngster flourishes in the NRL either, but I think it will increase our chances of developing a top quality playmaker.

I tried to think of the depth we have for England and it's no surprise that I could come up with some obvious and familiar names for positions like wing, centre and pretty much all of the forward positions. Our depth at fullback, stand off and scrum half is woeful.

Outside of Lewis, Connor, Smith, Williams and Welsby we're a short of talent. While try assists aren't a direct correlation to the talent of a playmaker I think the next English playmakers on the list of assists in Super League are Gareth O'Brien and Jake Trueman. We're awash with overseas players in the playmaking positions. 

I'm not suggesting getting rid of those overseas players is the answer either, as that just weakens the competition further. 

[Tommygilf]

Top of my head selections for starters on the thread, apologies for the lack of depth in advance. Any more to add!

1. Brimson, Welsby, Jowitt, O'Brien

2/5. Young, Johnstone, Burgess, Handley, Ashton, Hall, Marshall

3/4. Farnworth, Newman, Wardle, Hardaker, Bibby

6/7. Williams, Smith, Lewis, Connor, Sneyd

8/10/13. Lees, Smithies, Knowles, Oledski, Thompson, McMeeken, Trout, Walmsley, Smith, Havard

9. Clark, Litten, Walker, Ackers, Leeming, Dwyer

11/12. KPP, Watkins, Nsemba, Currie, Batchelor, McDonnell, Hadley, Bateman

 

Obvious there is some variation in positions even with the above.

[Tommygilf]

A 44 man squad if you like!

[WN83]

1 hour ago, EagleEyePie said:

I don't think it's a surprise that we struggle to produce quality in the spine positions. We always have some really exciting young halves in the academies. The problem is that some make a breakthrough, become the next big thing and then struggle to fulfil their potential.

It's not surprising really when you consider they learn how to play against Super League defences rather than the best in the world. They are only going to be coached how to beat what is in front of them, how to break down the defence they will be playing against.

I think you see it quite often in Super League where players become almost pigeonholed into a particular role and stop developing other aspects of their game, or only develop new aspects of their game into their late 20's and early 30's when they start to age and are forced to alter their game to make up for what they can no longer do.

Not every English player is going to flourish in the NRL but not every talented Australian youngster flourishes in the NRL either, but I think it will increase our chances of developing a top quality playmaker.

I tried to think of the depth we have for England and it's no surprise that I could come up with some obvious and familiar names for positions like wing, centre and pretty much all of the forward positions. Our depth at fullback, stand off and scrum half is woeful.

Outside of Lewis, Connor, Smith, Williams and Welsby we're a short of talent. While try assists aren't a direct correlation to the talent of a playmaker I think the next English playmakers on the list of assists in Super League are Gareth O'Brien and Jake Trueman. We're awash with overseas players in the playmaking positions. 

I'm not suggesting getting rid of those overseas players is the answer either, as that just weakens the competition further. 

Somebody put on a statistical analysis the other day (it may have been yourself) about the assists the 3 English halfbacks and Jake Connor got in 2025 and broke it down to show what they'd got against the top few clubs and also the bottom clubs and it was interesting to look at the numbers being put up against the likes of Salford, Huddersfield and Cas.

We look at some whopping totals of assists being put on by the likes of Lewis, Connor, Lam etc and talk about how well they've played but those numbers are being padded against those bottom sides and there are just too many easy games for our domestic halfbacks to be put under the sort of week to week pressure that helps them reach their absolute maximum level. 

It's dreadful to think it as a British Rugby League fan but I have no idea why lads like Welsby a couple of years ago and now Mikey Lewis would sign long term deals in Superleague. It's just too easy for them to keep progressing. Welsby looks to have stagnated and I've no doubt that will hit Lewis at some point as well. Get over in the NRL why you're at your best and full of confidence and take it on. I hate losing players from Wigan but if I had a kid with the choice of Superleague or the NRL on the table, I would tell them not to be so stupid and to get over there. 

[EagleEyePie]

48 minutes ago, WN83 said:

Somebody put on a statistical analysis the other day (it may have been yourself) about the assists the 3 English halfbacks and Jake Connor got in 2025 and broke it down to show what they'd got against the top few clubs and also the bottom clubs and it was interesting to look at the numbers being put up against the likes of Salford, Huddersfield and Cas.

We look at some whopping totals of assists being put on by the likes of Lewis, Connor, Lam etc and talk about how well they've played but those numbers are being padded against those bottom sides and there are just too many easy games for our domestic halfbacks to be put under the sort of week to week pressure that helps them reach their absolute maximum level. 

It's dreadful to think it as a British Rugby League fan but I have no idea why lads like Welsby a couple of years ago and now Mikey Lewis would sign long term deals in Superleague. It's just too easy for them to keep progressing. Welsby looks to have stagnated and I've no doubt that will hit Lewis at some point as well. Get over in the NRL why you're at your best and full of confidence and take it on. I hate losing players from Wigan but if I had a kid with the choice of Superleague or the NRL on the table, I would tell them not to be so stupid and to get over there. 

Yes it was me. There was another part to that analysis that I didn't include as it wasn't really relevant to the England squad, but is probably more relevant to the discussion on the quality of English playmakers in Super League.

These are the 5 playmakers with the most assists against the top 4 defences (total excluding playoffs in brackets):

1. Lachlan Lam - 9

2. Aidan Sezer - 8

3. Bevan French - 7 (6)

4. Tristan Sailor - 6 (5)

5 = Jack Welsby - 5 (4)

5 = Mikey Lewis - 5 (3)

Obviously there are some things that might skew this. The clubs who have one of the top 4 defences (Hull KR, Leeds, Saints, Wigan) obviously can only play 3 of those 4 teams, so Lam and Sezer have a slight advantage.

If you go purely off regular season Super League games Lewis and Connor don't make the top 5.

 

It's a similar story when you look at games against the top 6 defensive teams (which helpfully correlates with the actual top 6 sides)

1. Lachlan Lam - 13

2. Aidan Sezer - 12

3. Bevan French - 11 (10)

4. Tristan Sailor - 10 (9)

5. Mikey Lewis - 8 (6)

6 = Daejarn Asi - 7

6 = Jake Connor - 7

6 = Jack Welsby - 7 (6)

Yet again, Lewis only makes the top 5 due to the assists he made in the playoffs. Connor would have been joint 5th on regular season assists alone.

Either way, it's 4 overseas players who make the most assists against the strongest defences. This isn't in any way scientific as there will be a different number of games played that account for these numbers, and assists aren't directly correlated to creativity, but I did find it interesting nonetheless. 

Edited November 11 by EagleEyePie

[WN83]

11 hours ago, EagleEyePie said:

Yes it was me. There was another part to that analysis that I didn't include as it wasn't really relevant to the England squad, but is probably more relevant to the discussion on the quality of English playmakers in Super League.

These are the 5 playmakers with the most assists against the top 4 defences (total excluding playoffs in brackets):

1. Lachlan Lam - 9

2. Aidan Sezer - 8

3. Bevan French - 7 (6)

4. Tristan Sailor - 6 (5)

5 = Jack Welsby - 5 (4)

5 = Mikey Lewis - 5 (3)

Obviously there are some things that might skew this. The clubs who have one of the top 4 defences (Hull KR, Leeds, Saints, Wigan) obviously can only play 3 of those 4 teams, so Lam and Sezer have a slight advantage.

If you go purely off regular season Super League games Lewis and Connor don't make the top 5.

 

It's a similar story when you look at games against the top 6 defensive teams (which helpfully correlates with the actual top 6 sides)

1. Lachlan Lam - 13

2. Aidan Sezer - 12

3. Bevan French - 11 (10)

4. Tristan Sailor - 10 (9)

5. Mikey Lewis - 8 (6)

6 = Daejarn Asi - 7

6 = Jake Connor - 7

6 = Jack Welsby - 7 (6)

Yet again, Lewis only makes the top 5 due to the assists he made in the playoffs. Connor would have been joint 5th on regular season assists alone.

Either way, it's 4 overseas players who make the most assists against the strongest defences. This isn't in any way scientific as there will be a different number of games played that account for these numbers, and assists aren't directly correlated to creativity, but I did find it interesting nonetheless. 

It really does put a different slant on all the calls to get Connor in or at least give you food for thought on just what sort of difference he would've made. I saw Matt Shaw saying the other day that we struggled to open up the Aussie defence in this series and Jake Connor has been opening defences up all season. Well, there is some difference between opening up Salford and Huddersfield and opening up Australia. 

All that is not to say Connor shouldn't have been in but I think we're living in a dream land if we think he would've made much of a difference. That isn't to have a go at him personally because it isn't his fault or the fault of Lewis, Smith or Williams that Superleague is just too easy to play in some weeks. I banged on all season that just looking at 'form' can never be the only way to pick an international side. You need to look at how players cope with the biggest games. I look at somebody like Jez Litten now and I've seen that he can play well in a Grand Final and in an Ashes series, so if he is a bit off throughout 2026, I would have that on my mind and likely still select him. 

 

[Harry Stottle]

17 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think for the WC we need to just stop playing it safe. If some of the younger players as well as more established players have good seasons in 2026 then get them in the 17. 

These are the players could potentially come into the squad for the WC

Robertson, Martin, Gannon, Nicholson, Nsemba, Delaney, Pryce, Connor, Hanley, Eckersley, Farrimond, Radley, Thompson, Ashton, Whitby, O Neill, Litten.

That’s a big overhaul of the squad but if these players have big seasons they should be in the squad 

Could I suggest one name you didn't mention, who has been excellent at prop again this season and outplayed almost all other props in the division and not just good at either defence or attack but very proficient at both, in Robbie Mulhearn.

[Chrispmartha]

20 minutes ago, WN83 said:

It really does put a different slant on all the calls to get Connor in or at least give you food for thought on just what sort of difference he would've made. I saw Matt Shaw saying the other day that we struggled to open up the Aussie defence in this series and Jake Connor has been opening defences up all season. Well, there is some difference between opening up Salford and Huddersfield and opening up Australia. 

All that is not to say Connor shouldn't have been in but I think we're living in a dream land if we think he would've made much of a difference. That isn't to have a go at him personally because it isn't his fault or the fault of Lewis, Smith or Williams that Superleague is just too easy to play in some weeks. I banged on all season that just looking at 'form' can never be the only way to pick an international side. You need to look at how players cope with the biggest games. I look at somebody like Jez Litten now and I've seen that he can play well in a Grand Final and in an Ashes series, so if he is a bit off throughout 2026, I would have that on my mind and likely still select him. 

 

But Smith isn't anywhere to be seen in these 'analytics'

We would not have won the series with Connor in the team, we may have scored more than two trys though due to the way he plays and the way Smith plays.

[Damien]

17 hours ago, JM2010 said:

I think for the WC we need to just stop playing it safe. If some of the younger players as well as more established players have good seasons in 2026 then get them in the 17. 

These are the players could potentially come into the squad for the WC

Robertson, Martin, Gannon, Nicholson, Nsemba, Delaney, Pryce, Connor, Hanley, Eckersley, Farrimond, Radley, Thompson, Ashton, Whitby, O Neill, Litten.

That’s a big overhaul of the squad but if these players have big seasons they should be in the squad 

Many of these are way off. I'll only comment on the Wigan players, as I can't be bothered with the moaning from fans of other clubs, but the likes of Farrimond and Eckersley have work to do just to be Wigan regulars (Farrimond in particular) never mind any thoughts of England.

Nsemba sure if he can get back to top form and we do need more threat on the edges. Thompson was probably unlucky this time. On O'Neill I don't have any great issues with him not being picked this time around and he probably needs to develop more threat into his game. When you see him compared to Grant the difference is stark, then again that is the case with all our hookers.

Edited November 12 by Damien

[WN83]

5 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

But Smith isn't anywhere to be seen in these 'analytics'

We would not have won the series with Connor in the team, we may have scored more than two trys though due to the way he plays and the way Smith plays.

I think he was in some of the ones yesterday but it isn't about Smith v Connor or Connor v any English halfback and it's more a case of just highlighting that none of our halfbacks get tested enough. I think Connor would've done 'slightly' better than what the lads who got picked came up with, just based on his style of play and being full of confidence but ultimately until our halfbacks are tested in top level games, more often, we can pick whoever we like and it won't make a difference. 

We have a crop of young halfbacks making breakthroughs or who are on the verge, in Farrimond, Whitby, Irwin etc (and Robertson was a six in academy rugby) and they've made or likely will make some early eye catching performances but over time, as they progress and get to play loads of easy games, they'll stagnate and when asked to step up against a defence like Australia's they'll look as lost as some of the lads have in this series. 

[EagleEyePie]

7 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

But Smith isn't anywhere to be seen in these 'analytics'

We would not have won the series with Connor in the team, we may have scored more than two trys though due to the way he plays and the way Smith plays.

I posted the comparison between the England halves on another thread. 

On regular season matches alone Smith had 4 assists against the top 4 sides compared to 3 for Lewis and Connor. Lewis's 2 playoff assists push him ahead on 5. 

Against the top 6 is 7 for Connor, 6 for Smith and Lewis in the regular season but again Lewis goes ahead with the 2 playoff assists taking him to 8. 

There's very little difference between those 3 players, it's Williams who was lagging behind. 

[Harry Stottle]

6 minutes ago, Chrispmartha said:

But Smith isn't anywhere to be seen in these 'analytics'

We would not have won the series with Connor in the team, we may have scored more than two trys though due to the way he plays and the way Smith plays.

Let's be totally honest and just say Wane got it wrong in his selection at half backs especially in the case of Smith, yes he can kick and is good at it but the overwhelming evidence is that is all he can do, and 'Credit in the Bank' Williams did not justify his inclusion, and Mikey well he played in all 3, full 80 in the first, negligible in the second and nearly all the game in the 3rd where he got a lot of ball linking in from full back wide on the left which is his default position at HKR so much so that performance in SL would have seen him being a prominent performer (not his defensive qualities I may add), but against the Aussies it just didn't work, I think he has taken the right option in signing on for an extended period in SL.

Connor was needed in that squad just to add something different to the passive attack we displayed.

[Chrispmartha]

6 minutes ago, EagleEyePie said:

I posted the comparison between the England halves on another thread. 

On regular season matches alone Smith had 4 assists against the top 4 sides compared to 3 for Lewis and Connor. Lewis's 2 playoff assists push him ahead on 5. 

Against the top 6 is 7 for Connor, 6 for Smith and Lewis in the regular season but again Lewis goes ahead with the 2 playoff assists taking him to 8. 

There's very little difference between those 3 players, it's Williams who was lagging behind. 

There is a difference in how those two 7s play though - Connor also started the season at fullback.

[Damien]

15 hours ago, phiggins said:

We need to produce players that are better than the imports

I think there is a valid argument that it isn't just the players per se. It's the structures, coaching, competition, lack of intensity etc that those players are developing through. I think you could probably have a worse Aussie at 16 who gets all of this to a superior standard and becomes better than our equivalent who may have been better at 16. That Aussie at 21 on a cheap contract is then a better bet for a SL side.

The spine positions in particular are so pivotal and I think all too often our players never develop the more rounded game you see from the Australians. I am of course generalising but I think bar the odd exception it is the case.

Edited November 12 by Damien