Pete M

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  1. You need to practice what you preach.
  2. When figures are bandied about claiming attendances were 45% better than in 1991/92, it helps to apply some perspective by including cup attendances which were in the region of between 300k-400k more than in 2012. I'm pleased you agree they ought to be included and would also agree that attendances from the lower divisions should also be included for comparisons sake. Unfortunately, I don't have those figures. Taking them all into account however, I suspect there's not a great deal of difference between the 2012 gross attendance figures and 1991/92 gross figures for all league and cup games throughout all divisions. The County Cups were abolished before the advent of Super League. However, the Regal Trophy and Premiership Trophy were not and both were direct casualties of Super League. If you are making a general point about cup competitions not being affected by the advent of Super League, which you appear to be doing, then the information you provide ought to include all cup competitions. I'll assume your omissions were an oversight rather than deliberate.
  3. The general often fails to illustrate the particular, in particular the huge losses in cup attendances since the advent of Super League. Any attendance comparison worth it's salt ought to include them. I was more than pleased to oblige on this occasion.
  4. That's interesting because during the last season of the Lancashire Cup in 1993, the final itself attracted an attendance of 20,534. St Helens also attracted 12,573 in the 2nd Round against Widnes and 9,289 against Salford. Super League play-off attendances these days would struggle to match those figures. Challenge Cup attendances for similar fixtures today would command even less.
  5. Based on the cup attendance losses which I highlighted per club, that figure already amounted to over 300K. Clubs outside Division One in 1991/92 also produced cup attendances which would be unheard of today. For example, Workington recorded home attendances of 5,298 in the Challenge Cup and 3,499 in the Lancashire Cup, Oldham 5,814 in the Regal Trophy, Batley 3,089 in the Yorkshire Cup, Hunslet 3,182 in the Challenge Cup, Sheffield 3,227 in the Challenge Cup, Dewsbury 3,460 in the Challenge Cup, Hudds 4,799 in the Yorkshire Cup and 4,239 in the Regal Trophy, Bramley 3,484 in the Challenge Cup, Barrow 3,414 in the Challenge Cup. Swinton who were Division 1 but finished bottom and relegated in 1991/92 still recorded home cup attendances of 4,676 in the Challenge Cup and 3,285 in the Lancashire Cup. Estimating an aggregate attendance loss from cup games in the region of between 300K and 400K is therefore a not unreasonable estimation. How can the decline in cup competitions and subsequent loss of associated cup attendances be down to anything else other than Super League?
  6. That would be a very worthwhile exercise if all those revenue figures were widely known and available for comparative purposes. Unfortunately, all we have are attendance figures. My contention is that any increase in attendances during Super League is more than likely offset to a significant degree by the loss of attendances from all cup competitions in existence prior to Super League, a loss which I'd estimate at between 300K and 400K when comparing seasons 1991/92 to 2012. Those cup attendance losses were also walk-up attendances of which we'll probably never see the likes of again. They've been replaced by discounted season ticket holders who are averse to attending any other games where they actually have to pay.
  7. Excellent point. If we take Parksider's comparative attendance stats above at face value, they don't include the loss of support for cup games. For example, if we compare Parksider's best season of the 1st.Division during the 14 club 1991/92 season with his best season of Super League during the 14 club 2012 season, how do attendances at the cup games compare? Back in 1991/92 season, there was also the County Cup competitions and the Regal Trophy to consider. These are all games which have been lost along with their walk-up attendances. For example, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Lancashire Cup in 1991/92 was 30,171, for the Regal Trophy it was 20,356, for the Challenge Cup it was 66,954 (and for the Premiership Trophy it was 30,808 for a grand total of 148,289. In 2012, Wigan's aggregate attendance for the Challenge Cup was 34,004 and 15,467 for a grand total of 49,471. That's a loss of 98,818 fans from just the knock-out cup rounds involving Wigan.. Club - 1991/92 - 2012 - (Loss) Wigan - 148,289 - 49,471 - (98,818) St Helens - 120,397 - 26,569 - (93,828) Leeds - 104,314 - 48,638 - (55,676) Castleford - 95,155 - 8,130 - (87,025) Widnes - 65,853 - 9,949 - (55,904) Bradford - 62,887 - 2,959 - (59,928) Hull - 51,750 - 28,273 - (23,477) Warrington - 46,993 - 43,825 - (3,168) Salford - 35,833 - 6,004 - (29,829) Wakefield - 33,936 - 10,143 - (23,793) Hull KR -17,401 - 14,206 - (3,195) It's also worth noting that Featherstone and Halifax who were both in the First Division in 1991/92 accumulated the following attendances for cup games that year... Featherstone - 53,051 Halifax - 47,012 Those attendances for cup games back in 1991/92 were primarily walk-up attendances where people paid at the turnstiles and some of them were excellent attendances. Like you say, today's fans purchase a heavily discounted season ticket for Super League and that's pretty much it, unless their club reaches the final of the Challenge Cup or the Grand Final.