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  1. 28 points
    Thank God someone managed to prise open this silver lining and find a cloud.
  2. 23 points
    Rugby League as a sport - fans, owners, administrators, the lot - gets what it deserves. There was an opportunity here, an owner who's spent £10m, a growing fanbase and a very attractive market, for us to exploit. But no, the SL clubs would rather pocket an easy £200,000 and watch the opportunity sail on by. Anything else would have required some hard work and RL always takes the easy way out. You wanted a parochial sport, fine, that's what you've got. The future in England is abundantly clear; a second rate domestic competition, ignored by the rest of the country, played in front of crowds of old men hankering after yesterday's glory, that produces players for the NRL and union.
  3. 20 points
    Think I saw it's £35.00 for the Wigan ones because they have a mechanical device attached so they can leave 20mins before the end
  4. 19 points
    So says Phil Caplan. Highly encouraging.
  5. 18 points
    In my opinion, the whole episode puts our sport in a bad light. Here is (or rather here WAS) a club that went from zero to hero in just a few short years, capturing the imagination of many, bringing an appealing freshness of approach, against a constant background hum of negativity from this side of the Atlantic. I know I sound like a broken record, but the world has changed in the last 30 years. People have horseless carriages, decent homes , motorways and dual carriageways make travel between major towns and cities so much easier,. Miserable old stadiums have gone and miserable old gits like me really are a dying breed. The stadium issue has been largely fixed, but are the oldies being replaced by the yoof? Where are they on this forum, then, or is it just for the over 50s? Lots of people doing sterling work in the youth and amateur segments but it's young spectators , becoming lifelong paying TV and llive spectators that we need to bring money into the game. I've not been to Toronto and never will but I am left with the binding impression that the Wolf pack had seriously broken through into thd younger market, and had built a level of excitement and match day experience that we rarely experience here. Sure, were not talking Manchester City levels of impact, but we need Torontos, not fewer.
  6. 16 points
    I don’t understand this talk of punishment, punishment for what, being victims of a global pandemic. It’s perfectly obvious that it’s harder for Toronto to resume than it is for anyone else due to travel and visa restrictions, no other club has that problem, not even Catalans. SL should be supporting TWP not punishing them, RL isn’t big enough to destroy clubs like that.
  7. 15 points
    Ah, so he made his own choice, but the other 33 didn't? Everybody made their own choice. His was different to everyone else's. His prerogative, but it's fair to ask why.
  8. 15 points
  9. 15 points
    The same Super League chairmen who weren't exactly subtle in viewing Toronto as the b*****d step-child who they wanted nothing to do with? Let's not kid ourselves here. There were club owners who feared that Toronto might, just might, reach a level of success that they neither could, nor one that they ever intended to try and reach. It suits these club owners for RL to remain a cheap regional oddity and they would have taken any opportunity, any at all, to push Toronto over the edge to preserve that. Toronto threated to be a tall poppy and these people simply had to cut it down. Rugby League Family™ indeed.
  10. 15 points
    Clearly the RFL/SL thought TWP were bluffing when saying they needed help. I imagine it was something like "We're in, but you have to help us" "we'll see...... oh, looks like we can play games again here, all good?" "we're in, but you have to help us" "We're all good to go, we're settled with our government bailouts, you guys good?" "we're in, but you have to help us" "fixture list is drawn up, good to go? "we're in, but you have to help us - we can't get the same visas as you" "fixtures have been released, no problems right?" "we're in, but you have to help us - even just a loan that's 11% of the TV money you kept...." "Ready to kick off?" "NO. You didn't help us"
  11. 15 points
    Some pretty predictable responses and I don't understand the posts about a flawed business model etc. I defy any SL club to stay in business for over a year with no home fixtures, no TV money and no furlough money like the UK teams are getting.
  12. 15 points
    I've just quoted one little bit of your post, it was very long and I don't want people scrolling to much, people will be getting flashbacks to the days of parky! Anyway, people may or may not have noticed I haven't posted on this thread in a long time and a couple of the points you raised in your post are essentially the reason why. Any thread about Toronto seems to just go in the same direction as the brexit threads did, anyone who is in the minority view on the board just gets shouted down and attacked and so I feel I am not able to raise critical issues about Toronto for fear of reprisal. The fact is when Toronto first came about I was one of the biggest supporters of the idea in the world, I am still one of the biggest supporters of expansion I feel but as time has gone on my enthusiasm for Toronto has gone down and down. Now that is nothing at all to do with the team, I have absolutely no problem at all on earth with the team, it is the arrogance and defensive nature of a small (very small) group of fans that has made me feel this way. As you suggest Dave, maybe it's a cultural thing in which case I'm just not understanding which I will concede to but it doesn't feel that way to me and others who feel we can't voice our opinions. I have never known any group (again only a small minority) of fans to get so offended by a someone criticising their team or any group (small minority) of fans so cocky and arrogant, and I've met fans from just about every club in the game, at least in this country. I've found RL fans are humble people who, if they are gonna to criticise a club, said clubs fans will agree with them more often than not. I find RL fans can see the problems facing their own clubs and are comfortable enough to admit to them and discuss them in a civilised manner so it is a bit of a shock when some of us try to offer criticism of Toronto and get attacked for it, we simply are not used to that in all the time we have been following the game. It's good that Toronto fans are really positive people but when that small minority are being incredibly arrogant in that positivity by saying things like, Toronto are the saviours of the game, the game is a joke, it's run by idiots, other clubs are small time, we're gonna batter everyone we play, everyone is gonna bow down to us when we dominate the game in just a few years, these things start to become offensive. Be positive, that's great, but don't put down other, long established clubs and long time fans in the process, it is simply not very nice behaviour. I imagine there are many others who are the same as me and don't bother posting on Toronto threads any more cos they feel much the same and just can't be bothered to be the target of attacks and abuse. Anyway, I probably could go on but I might as well not hold off the abuse any longer. Come on, take your best shot.
  13. 15 points
    That’s ridiculous. It sounds like a spiteful dog in the manger attitude. Currently different jurisdictions in Australia allow different numbers of fans in the stadium and I’ve not heard a single complaint from NRL clubs. Actually, it would be incomprehensible for an NRL club to raise it as an issue.
  14. 14 points
    3 new satellite community clubs will be formed on the back of it. https://mobile.twitter.com/RLWC2021/status/1290543012628635648 Fantastic news, more people playing the game in the Midlands. Congrats Coventry!!
  15. 14 points
    Entirely up to him. Looks like Israel and I fundamentally disagree on many things but I absolutely support his right to do as he wishes.
  16. 14 points
    Wow, a casually racist thread, just below a thread on racism in rugby league.
  17. 14 points
    Two things: 1. Gledhill lists some clubs who he says, definitely wanted to play on - there is no suggestion or evidence that the list is exhaustive. 2. Never, ever, EVER, mistake Gledhill for a "respected journalist".
  18. 14 points
    League Express won't be back... because it never went away! We've published every week during the lockdown. It ain't been easy. If you've taken a break, don't forget about us when the season gets going again. https://shop.totalrl.com/product/league-express/
  19. 13 points
    Congratulations,you've proved you have the most appropriate name on this site. SL has not put money into London David Hughes has. There has been more development in London and the ne than in the heartlands,this development has produced grants for rl from Sport England. Well done peanut head.
  20. 13 points
    I also wouldn't take a knee. I consider myself to be anti-racist ( I'm anti a lot of things) but I get on my knees to no-one and for no-one. It's a personal choice for each individual but despite agreeing 100% that Black Lives Matter it's something I personally will not do. It's also become (for me at least) an empty gesture because when you see politicians and police officers (the very people who enable systematic racism) taking a knee then it's vomit inducing. Sadly we live in a world where if you aren't seen to be doing the 'right' thing then automatically it is assumed you must be doing the 'wrong' thing. You won't stop racism by getting on your knees.
  21. 13 points
    I once sent a player off for racially abusing an opponent and another time ordered the whole home touch line cleared for constant racist abuse of a team with a number of black players. I made it perfectly clear I’d abandon the game and inform the league exactly why it had been abandoned
  22. 13 points
    I think these videos are very powerful and here is one from the NRL with Steve Renouf discussing his experiences. https://www.nrl.com/news/2020/07/31/laid-bare-renouf-racism-and-rugby-league/ But there is something missing in all this. Where are all their teammates calling out and denouncing the attitudes and behaviours they have seen. I am a 50 year old straight, white man but I am on the Diversity & Inclusion committee at my place of work because I feel strongly about bringing about positive change. Come on Rugby League players. Speak up.
  23. 13 points
    Scrap promotion, make it a closed shop, add in loads of teams in foreign countires, remove any funding to lower leagues and amateur game. Do I qualify for the CEO job now?
  24. 13 points
    A solution for tv revenue implications. Toronto are given an equal share of the sky money to complete the 2020 season. As should of been the case from day 1. If the other short sighted greedy Super League clubs hadn’t taken Toronto’s share of the tv money this would never of happened.
  25. 13 points
    It would have been nice for this to be announced prior to the e-mails, over the past week, indicating re-start and fixture dates. That said, when you consider the context of zero central funding, covering visiting teams' costs, TV deal not being open for re-negotiation until after this/next season (thank you, Sky Soports for having already sold the Canadian rights to Sportsnet), zero gates' ticket sales, and a global pandemic affecting international travel (even the Toronto Blue Jays will not play in the city, this season), then it's not really surprising that a team would withdraw from a season. I just hope that the RFL, and those here who have done nothing but berate the team and its efforts for years, will be able to see past individual biases and push for the team being able to re-start along with SL in 2020. To say that the current situation is unprecedented would be an understatement. To hope that the TWP (and other teams who are struggling) will continue, and succeed, should be our shared goal and is in our collective best interests. I will be putting my money where my mouth is, and rolling over my family's season ticket memberships to 2021. Hopefully, this will not be in vain.
  26. 13 points
    I think it is a complicated one. I think there are many reasons why TWP are unpopular with a population of people, I'll name some, all IMHO. 1. The Leigh rivalry. A natural rivalry was created initially with the signing of coach and some players. That wouldn't necessarily happen with a Glasgow team. 2. The logistics issue. There is a reasonable point that having a team from the other side of the world in your comp is odd. And it is, by virtue of the fact it is really unusual. That wouldn't be the case for another UK team, but even then we have seen question marks over the likes of Crusaders and even London, who often appear to be weak clubs propped up. 3. Expansion strategy. A lot would depend on how a team comes about. The likes of London, Wales, France, even Gateshead all had some form of clumsy expansion development aims - TWP literally came from nowhere because a rich bloke wanted to set a team up. I'm cool with that approach (never look a gift horse in the mouth). 4. The approach of the club. There have been instances where TWP have rubbed people up the wrong way and played the victim card. My personal view is that you need to be bold and disrupt the market to use business speak, but that won't always be popular. The player development issue is an issue for many. 5. The approach of some fans. I know it is always put down as self-defense, or a reaction to goading, but that is a cop-out. Some of it may be a culture thing, but the constant griping about things not being how they do it in Canada or playing the victim card has certainly worn me down and lost a lof of my goodwill (I should add this is a very small minority). 6. Over sensitivity. We have quite a noisy hard-core expansionist lot in RL who are pretty aggressive against anyone who disagrees. Therefore any mild hint of criticism against TWP is met with a lot of vitriol. I've been on the end of it, and the likes of Harry, GUBRATS and MoK who can handle themselves, but IMHO articulate themselves well are lambasted here. Other than repetitiveness and thread drift, they don't deserve the stick they get. People will then side with them. But plenty of clubs are disliked. 7. P&R and structure. Probably the biggest hot topic in the sport. Having new teams like this in brings this to the forefront of debate again. We have seen how toxic this debate is over the last 25 years and bringing overseas teams and talk of franchises automatically instigates a P&R or structure debate. I could go on, some people will get hung up on one of the above, or some people are bothered by none. Apologies this is all a negative list, but that is the point, IMHO there are more positives than any of the above, hence why I support expansion, but if we are looking at why TWP are unpopular to some, we maybe do need to deep-dive and not just dismiss it as backward traditional luddites having a moan. So whether another club would be hated depends on plenty of variables is the short answer to the long above post
  27. 13 points
    A few months ago I produced what I believed to be one of my best-ever pieces of journalism. It was a piece on the pay... View the full article
  28. 13 points
    It should be very simple, if the British government allow travel to France and the French government allow travel from Britain, then teams should be compelled to fulfil their fixtures with Catalan or face the consequences as laid down in the operational rules of the competition. Catalan should not be punished because they French government have managed this crisis better than the British government and allow crowds back earlier.
  29. 12 points
    Newcastle are a brilliant example to any lower league team. They are building links with the amateur clubs, created genuine paths for young players to get to the first team. They have picked up the slack in Cumbria for example, where the local clubs haven't bothered. As a fan of a lower league club I`m massively impressed and jealous of their entire set up.
  30. 12 points
    Yes, if there is one thing we know for sure it is that Israel, and the the other 2.3 billion Christians in the world, will never succumb to group think.
  31. 12 points
    Isn't the issue here that we have clubs (and fans) in the M62 corridor acting as if the solution is to expect some sort of 'white knight' to come along? It's the sort of thinking that leads people to think that Eddie Hearn is the answer to all of our problems or that one club, in one Canadian city, can single-handedly improve the fortunes of M62 clubs that have had more than 125 years to get their act together. The clubs seem to be acting as if it is down to expansion clubs to take on the effort and the risk for growing the sport, whilst they sit back and shake down new clubs until there is nothing more falling from their pockets. The clubs really need to decide if the answer here is individualism or if it is collectivism. At the moment, we have this weird double-standard where clubs want it both ways. If the clubs want to take the individualism approach and put the onus on TW for getting North American TV deals, then TW should be allowed reap the benefits of the risk they carry. Likewise with Catalans. The idea that TW should be required to carry the risk, yet still only reap the same reward as everyone else, is nonsense. Every club should be held to the same standard. If we're demanding that Catalans or TW must do more to add value to the TV packages, we must demand that every club, from Wigan and Leeds through to Salford and Wakefield must each do the same. There's a reason why some clubs are televised more than others, and it's because they put bums on sofas, yet the ones that don't are rewarded largely the same as those that do. If we're going to blame Catalans for the French national team not developing, then we should probably start sanctioning M62 clubs for the fact that England/GB has gone from being beaten reguarly by Australia, to being beaten by Tonga, PNG AND Australia. Or the sport could decide to take a collective approach, where we acknowledge that a rising tide raises all boats, and the risks and rewards are shared equally. If Super League clubs want an equal share the benefits of commercial and TV deals in France or North America, they all need to make an equal effort in forging those deals. People ask questions like "how do Toronto help Widnes?", and it misses the point. If we want to insist on expansion clubs being 'outsiders' on their own, the answer is "why the flip should Toronto help Widnes? Widnes have had long enough to work out how to help themselves". If we want to insist on an "all in this together, Rugby League Family™" approach, surely the answer is should be "how do Widnes and Toronto help each other?"
  32. 12 points
    That's the most positive contribution I've seen from McCrone since he's been at Toronto!
  33. 12 points
    I think at that level it is the right decision. It is simply too expensive for many clubs to play behind closed doors and pay players whilst receiving no furlough money and pay for insurance and testing etc. They dont need to go back for the TV money like the Super League clubs either.
  34. 12 points
    There were a lot of issues. A lot. And I don't think that can be overlooked. But there were also huge burdens placed on the club in return that went beyond fairness and balance, and into the realms of short term greed from the other clubs. It's a sad day that it's come to this. Toronto could have been a great opportunity. Rugby league has blown it. Both in the people who were running the club itself and those charged with running the game and its clubs here.
  35. 12 points
    There seems to be many people being critical of the mindset of supporters, clubs and English rugby league in general. Pointing the blame for the demise of Toronto on a general small minded and inward thinking selfish attitude of the English game. Some of these things may be not too far off the mark. However when the Toronto project was first announced dont forget this northern game gave them a chance. I cant think of any other professional sport that would have even considered the Toronto application with all its potential problems of having a Canadian team playing in a European league. Looks like it hasn't worked out but dont put all the blame one way. The project had too many flaws to survive. Been following this game a long time now and seen many come and go. Give it a few more years and someone else will pop up thinking he can buy his way into the game. If that happens I hope he does his research this time and not copy the many failed models of the past. Finally if Brian noble is still around when this happens, give the bloke a wide berth.
  36. 12 points
    The people in charge of the game in this country couldn't run a bath
  37. 12 points
    Other clubs also have access to revenue. The NHL is restarting in a few weeks here. They have chosen two Cities (Toronto and Edmonton) that they will base 31 teams out of. All games will be played at the same arena and revenues shared amongst the 31 teams. That's how a mature sports league operates.
  38. 12 points
    My dad was there that day, and has been a season ticket holder with the Broncos pretty much ever since to this day - Turning myself into a lifelong RL supporter when I was born a number of years later. So, on an individual basis, I don't view it as a failure
  39. 11 points
    Gulliver's World is appealing but maybe he doesn't want to get tied down.
  40. 11 points
    This thread isn't even about Toronto anymore, the last few pages are just pathetic, quite honestly. I'm locking it now because I don't have time to moderate it properly. Do not start any new Toronto threads in the meantime or they will just be deleted so you'd be wasting your energy typing them out.
  41. 11 points
    It's not so much that the team's "lost all their funding"... Instead, there has been a combination of factors: The TWP has been denied any central funding, received by other teams; The TWP has been denied the opportunity to negotiate it's own TV deal thanks to our beloved Sky Sports selling off the North American TV rights for next to nothing; The TWP has been denied the ability to furlough, during the Covid-19 shut down, and denied any/all government support from both the U.K. and Canadian governments, due to the team's dual national existence; The TWP saw several top players unable to extend work visas, leaving them unable to stay in the U.K. and leaving the team simply uncompetitive until resolved; The TWP was denied any/all financial assistance from the league, when requested as a loan; and Covid-19 left the team unable to earn any revenue from gate/ticket sales. It's one thing to expect further funding from a wealthy benefactor. It's another thing entirely to combine all of the above and expect that pockets the investors' pockets are bottomless. There is not a single team in the Super League which would survive this combination of challenges. To expect an expansion team, in a fledgling (even if quickly developing) market, to do so is, simply, asinine. The SL and RFL need to show some flexibility, and some business sense in developing new markets; but, perhaps, that is too much to ask.
  42. 11 points
    2020 Is not a normal year or a normal season so penalties should not be enforced on TW or any other club - suerly we just want every club to survive. As most clubs will have started looking at 2021 signings TW & SL need to confirm now what is planned for 2021 season. I think given the circumstances we should just start afresh with the same 12 team SL as this year - with TW and no point penalty. TW can then confirm if they plan to continue in SL and then they and other SL clubs can crack on and plan for next season. From Lg1 and Champ fan experience a weekend away watching RL in Toronto is a great experience and while TW are still alive we should do everything to make sure they survive and play in SL as they earned the right to play at that level.
  43. 11 points
    The North East is the perfect demographic for RL to continue to grow we have further plans for new community clubs in areas like Sunderland and Middlesbrough but we also want to grow the current 15 clubs to make sure everyone has strong junior set ups There’s now over 80 schools across the region who get rugby league coaching and that will continue to rise all in all we have just over 1,300 player registered and playing at community clubs and our aim is to grow that by 5% a year
  44. 11 points
    I still can’t believe TWP didn’t predict covid and include it in their contingency plan three years ago - so amateur.
  45. 11 points
    Truth is, it's me that usually posts them, and I've been off work the past couple of days looking after my 87 year old mum who isn't in the best of health right now. There's no more to it than that. Sorry. There's nothing to stop anyone else posting a match thread in here to discuss any RL game if they want, though. However, with Super League starting back up shortly, I will be reverting to posting Super League match threads in here, as we did before the season was suspended, and deferring to the NRL forum for discussion on the NRL, as pinning threads for all the games in both comps in here would not only take me longer to do, it would leave the top half of the forum a bit top heavy with pinned threads too.
  46. 11 points
    I've had the pleasure of attending a Toronto game and can honestly say it was one of the best rugby experiences in over 35 years involved in the game. If anyone thinks 500 people watching a team that's been around 100 years shouting "forward" "knock on" is the future, god help us.
  47. 11 points
  48. 11 points
    Absolutely this greedy move has caused all this. I believe this is an ultimatum from David Argyle to the other Super League clubs, accept Toronto as an equal or they will walk away. Anyone who believes the sky tv deal will be as valuable with Leigh or Fev replacing Toronto is delusional. Clubs have repeatedly attacked Toronto, no sky tv money is the big one but also, a lower salary cap as they can’t possibly have club trained players yet, no additional overseas quota, and just today no access to the RFL bailout fund.
  49. 11 points
    So those are some not-nice ways to say things, but there ARE things that can be hard to describe nicely. Clubs complaining about who is paying for their lunch on a Toronto trip - that is "small time". Same with moving kickoff times to avoid a few hours on a bus, or being against TWP because they don't provide away fans. Those attitudes are because it is a small-budget, small-footprint league. I.e "small time". It's not nice to hear and hard to put a better way, but it is the truth. Similarly, playoff structures not being confirmed until in-season, or promotion not known to be guaranteed or not, these are signs of a not-that-well-run, probably internally disagreeing body. "A joke" or "run by idiots" are inflammatory ways to say that, but those ARE valid criticisms. You are contributing to the problem by pushing this dichotomy. We see this all over the world, for some reason everything must be divided into two camps that become echo chambers. Not only is pushing a dichotomy the wrong approach, in this very post you are fanning the flames by criticizing one as "just want to back slap etc" - implying negative judgement upon that attitude - while describing your "side" as "proper" and "debate" - implying that is the correct and positive side. I relate to this very strongly. I tried to get into playing RL long before the Wolfpack existed - more rugby to play is more rugby! Great!. But I didn't feel that welcome, for a few different reasons. I also wasn't very good at it, but if I had been having a good time I could have persevered and improved. Instead I decided I wasn't going to put myself in a situation that made me unhappy any more. Then when TWP came around, I still had very little preconceived notions about history or attitudes. More is rugby is more rugby! Our own pro team! Great! But the more challenges that TWP seemed to unfairly have had to face, both from within the games administration, and the abuse and criticism of fans online (that is part of what pushes the administration to act the way it does) - it's pretty souring. The default expectation is that whatever TWP tries to be accomplished will be blocked, or forced to bend over backwards to achieve, or simply let down in some other way. Home games played away, forced to pay for the cup, only allowed promotion at the last minute... it is endless, it's disheartening, and appears it will never change. I still follow them closely because again, hey it's a local rugby team. And it's still a very interesting case of a relatively unique situation in world sport that hasn't reached it's conclusion yet, and as an admitted sports-business nerd it's extremely fascinating. I follow CPL soccer very closely and take part in discussions on that nearly as much as I do here, and I don't even like watching soccer, for the same reasons. But if DA gives it up, it will not will be a shock. It will have seemed inevitable all along. And I won't even have that big of a void to fill, since I will still have a local pro rugby team - one that has none of the negativity attached to it.
  50. 11 points
    Dave. As a fan of multiple sports over a lifetime, I've never experienced such negative nattering, nastiness, lies, unfounded hatred, snark, rudeness, uninformed ignorance, and constant relentless repetitive nonsense as I've seen against Wolfpack from rugby league "fans". Some of whom continue to witter the same tired old tripe on this very thread. If there is "precious defence", consider that it is just that, defence. Wolfpack fans didn't start out being defensive - looking back, we were probably the most positive fans in the game, like kids on Christmas morning. Criticism didn't surprise us, but the abuse certainly did. Worth saying that away fans who were able to travel to Toronto and go to a match at Lamport mostly went away well pleased with the experience and much more supportive of the club and its ambitions.


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