Trojan
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Posts posted by Trojan
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You've seen the light then? In the NL's supporters do not walk away from the game they go watch Superleague instead.No you've misunderstood me. Supporters do not walk away from clubs, they either grow too old to attend or they die - or both. The new supporters who should be replacing them gravitate to the SL clubs. There's no gain for the game overall, just a redistribution. Fev's crowds were larger than Wakey's in the last seaon Wakey were in the same division as Fev. Since then Fev's crowds have declined and Wakey's have improved. A redistribution Parky. Who knows, perhaps if Fev had won that night in Huddersfield, with a ground at least twice as good as Belle Vue they could have attracted even larger crowds to SL.
The same goes for 'Fax now especially now they've got the Shay sorted. Pehaps the missing thousands from Odsal will start supporting their hometown club.
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Is it only me that thinks your argument and parky's are starting to converge?
If they are I'll have to think up a new argument
I still need to get him back re Beeston v Hunslet Fire Station
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Don't disagree for the small number of clubs that have built brands and rivalries like saints Wigan fc kr wire, but there are a fair number of fc fans in east hull & vice versa. There are saints fans in Wigan and Warrington. There are also a number of fans at these clubs that are first generation supporters. These are the people I mean, they ( like my mate euan who I took to a few saints games and became more passionate than
most sintelliner residents despite no link to the town).
There are Saints fans in Wigan, (I know one) no doubt there are Wigan fans in St Helens - there are Wigan fans everywhere for God's sake -even in Cas. Wigan are RL's major brand, (a bit like Man U) Max Boyce's song about the Pontypool Front Row doesn't mention Widnes Saints Bradford, Hull or Leeds, it mentions Wigan.
But for the most part in RL fans are parochial. Fev and Cas are only three miles apart, you could see Mount Pleasant from the old Crown Flatt. It doesn't make sense. But for those who support the sides it does. When I worked in Cas I used to buy my morning paper from a papershop next to the Fourways pub. He was a nice bloke, we always had a bit of chat about the Rugby at the weekend on Mondays and Fridays. But one night I went to Wheldon Road for a Cas/Fev game and happened to see him - his hatred of Fev for that ninety minutes for incandescent. That's one of the reasons people keep going.
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You are a daft devil, trying to tell me about the people who watch Bramley and Hunslet and Leeds.
The fact is I have been one of them, have been amongst them for 40 years, and have known so many of them over the years.
Stop making it up.
It's never the same people Parky. I've been watching Fev for thirty years (I supported Wakey - well Neil Fox) for twenty before that. But I'm 63 and sometime in the next few years I'll probably be too old to keep going. It'll be nearly forty years since Parkside closed. How many of those who attended regularly are still alive today, or able to attend a football match? Crowds are dynamic. If Fev had won in 1998, instead of Wakey, I've no doubt that they'd have at least similar sized crowds to those Wakey have today. Because it's 12 years since, there are probably kids from Sharlston, Crofton, Ackworth, who had Fev been in SL would have supported Fev - instead they go to Belle Vue to watch SL and who can blame them? There are people who were at Huddersfield that night supporting Fev who have either died or become too infirm to turn out any more. Crowds are dynamic. It's never the same people - week by week even.
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Several things; which bit of what I wrote about changing communities was in your opinion incorrect?
It's not my experience of the way things are in West Yorkshire. Rivalry here, and in Hull and Wigan and St Helens (not large towns) is very real.
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That's a very good post, and reflects the reality of the situation.
Here In Leeds people have stopped watching Hunslet and Bramley, most watch Leeds, many out of town travel a distance to watch Leeds, and some Leeds people choose to go to Cas or Bradford.
No it's not Parky it's wrong. As for Leeds, Bramley and Hunslet. For the most part it's not the same people who've stopped watching Hunslet/Bramley and started watching Leeds. It's a different generation. Bramley have never been particularly well supported, but Hunslet's diseappearance in the early seventies, plus the fact that Hunslet as a place where people live has effectively disappeared has contributed to their decline. The new young potential supporters of RL look around for team to support and what do they see. Bright shiney SL Leeds, playing at Headingley, on TV every week seemingly, and struggling Hunslet. It's not really surprising if they choose Leeds is it? What clubs like Hunslet need is a bit of help to raise their profile. But what do they get instead - franchising - calculated to keep them out of the limelight and perpetuate the vicious circle of decline.
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Point 1. Liverpool's football clubs are both technically insolvent and will not be able to build their own grounds so may need to share facilities to ever compete at the top again. If they were outside the Premiership I'm certain that some officials would be exploring the prospect of a merger as has happened in Sheffield & Bristol
Point 2. Business loyalty, especially within retail and leisure is actually quite a major aspect, it is usually referred to as inertia because in business loyalty to a failing product is thought to be bad. I remained loyal to the Independent through many years, I will not go to other DIY stores other than B&Q and my clothes shopping is done at Austin Reed. Are there other places available that may offer better product at the same or lower prices? Probably, but I'm not going to invest too much time in finding out
How many businesses need their rivals to continue in existence.How many businesses get volunteers in the help run things? None. Pro sport in the uk certainly at SL level and below cannot be described as a business.
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I'm choosing to ignore your patronising negative attitude and address your post without resorting in kind.
The trouble with this argument is, rugby league isn't strictly a business. People who say it is are missing a whole lot about it. If clubs were strictly a business, no one in their right mind would watch a losing team. If Coca Cola starts to taste awful and gives people illness the customers wont still buy it out of loyalty, they will switch to pepsi. Yet I've seen fans go to watch a Halifax team in super league that didn't have a hope of winning a game all season. You can't treat the fans as customers, they are different. There is an emotional attachment and a sense of community spirit you don't get from true businesses. Sure, they run accounts, and have overheads, but the customers in this case are not the type who will simply wander from product to product when it suits them. Their loyalty is a strength and a weakness. It means you can't simply bank on them going elsewhere if you mess them around and merge and subdue their club. It's more than just a brand to them. But it also means some of them will carry on supporting through thick and thin no matter what is going on with the business side.
Merge Wakey and Cas and a number will refuse to go because it wont be the same and the new entity will represent something else they are not accustomed to or emotionally attached to. You have to accept that no matter what you think of these people. You have to hope that in the long term, you can gain lost ground and overtake that considerably otherwise you are sacrificing two working clubs just to risk one which may work slightly better.
Your last paragraph is of supreme irrelevance to this argument so I wont bother replying to it because you shouldn't have bothered posting it.
Nail on head. It's called tribalism. It doesn't make sense for there to be two premiership soccer teams in Liverpool whose grounds are not only within comfortable walking distance, but with sight of one another. But there they are. And they get good crowds week in week out. Sport is not a business. I don't know how you'd describe it. Businesses don't get volunteers in to help them run their operations - RL Clubs do. Businesses don't depend on their rivals' surivival for their own survival, RL Clubs do, businsess don't rely on amateur versions of themsleves to provide skilled workers. And as you say if businesses start producing poor quality product then some of those who buy that product will (eventually) go elsewhere. But most RL fans stick with their teams through thin and thinner.
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Good god this is hard work.
Wigan, as I stated, have regular supporters who turn up from Birmingham, Bristol and Oxford, but you don't count these places as Wigan. Wigan also draw from Standish, Pemberton, Hindley which people would tend to bracket as Wigan.
Now try again, are the places you mention where teams draw support from considered geographicaly part of those towns or not.
What do you call geographically? Geographically, Ledston, Ledsham, Kippax, Allerton Bywater, and Methley are very adjacent to Cas. Some almost within walking distance of Cas town centre, but politically they are in Leeds. Standish is in Wigan, Coppull is in Lancashire. Does Copull count as Wigan's area?
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Trojan, sadly it is the pathetic childish attitude of your friend and others who spend more time calling each other "jameaters" without knowing who is or isn't a "jameater" that has and still is holding back rugby league at a professional level in west Cumbria.
I still don't know how people can assume that one club will be weaker than two mediocre struggling clubs!!! In west Cumbria more people have actually walked away from the game altogether than go to watch both Town and Haven in total. But still we listen to the "over my dead body" people.
Well perhaps you can explain it to the residents of Workington and Whitehaven and persuade them to pay out their money to watch a merged team.
When you've done that you can have a go at Hull & Hull Kr, and Cas and Fev. If you succeed, I recommend that you offer your services to the Palestians and Israelis.
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People from Kippax consider themselves from Castleford even though the postal code and phone numbers are both Leeds. When someone says "lets go into town" they mean Castleford and not Leeds.
Their are a fair few Cas fans in Garforth, Micklefield and Swillington as well, all of which are in the Leeds district.
I always think that Cas draw most of their support obvously from Cas (Whitwood, Airedale, Glasshoughton) but mainly after that from north of the Aire.
Fev on the other hand draw mainly from Ponte, Knottingley, Ferrybridge, Ackworth Purston Streethouse, Hemsworth, South Kirkby (where my family come from orignially) I think Sharlston's a bit borderline between Fev and Wakey.
Wakey again obviously from Wakefield, but Horbury, Wrenthorpe, Alverthorpe, Outwood, Lofthouse, Stanley, Normanton but then to areas bordering on Barnsley like Brierley, Ryhill, and Royston.
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finally got my express today and am amazed to read nigel wood earns more than the prime minister!
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Initially, several mergers between existing clubs were proposed:
1. Castleford, Wakefield Trinity and Featherstone Rovers would form Calder
2. Hull FC and Hull Kingston Rovers would form Hull"
3. Whitehaven, Workington Town, Barrow and Carlisle would form Cumbria
4. Warrington and Widnes were to form Cheshire
5. Salford and Oldham were to form Manchester
6. Sheffield and Doncaster were to form South Yorkshire
They were to be included with the following stand-alone clubs: St Helens, Wigan, Leeds, Bradford Northern, Halifax, London, Paris and Toulouse.
Which of these would have been better than the current situation for clubs in that area and which will eventually happen anyway?
In my opinion 3, 5 and 6 are arguably better than what we have now in those areas
In my opinion 1, a version of 3 and 6 may well eventually happen to get a club into SL from those areas as Wakey & Cas are stymied by a lack of decent stadium and the Marras go ahead without the other 2 listed (who ironically merged 11 years ago).
The ludicrous petition and associated threads made me curious.
I would suggest the winners from this NOT happening as planned have been Wire Hull FC & HKR, all of which have gone on to be successful on their own.
Just to add, Halifax & Toulouse may well get back to where they were envisaged in 1995 in the next round of licences
But who will pay through the gate to watch them? The antipathy between Cas and Fev is well known, as is that in Hull.
But a similar feeling exists between Whitehaven and Workington - I used to work with a lad from Whitehaven - he had no time at all for the "jameaters" I used to tease him by calling him one - he was not amused.
You could merge Sheffield and Doncaster without much trouble - but I bet you still couldn't come up with SL sized crowds.
I don't think there's much love lost between Wire and Widnes either.
The only way these could have been made to work is that if one or other of the mergees went out of existence then perhaps there might be some mileage in it but I doubt it.
I used to know a Bradford City fan, his wife and her family had supported Park Avenue but even twenty years after they dropped out the league there was no way they'd be seen dead at Valley Parade.
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Want to put money on that Geof, come on get yer tight Yorkshire wallet out.
Wouldn't be fair to bet on a cert
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Cocktails for two - Spike Jones
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Wigan Warriors have offered deals to eight members of their youth team who have all signed up.
Chris Taylor - stand off or centre, product of Wigan St Pats and Abraham Guest. A powerful tackler with creative abilities. Chris has been on the scholarship for three years, he has also represented England at U'16's recently against France.
Connor Farrell - younger brother of Liam, he is strong running back row forward with an excellent work ethic and attitude. A product of Wigan St Pats and St John Fisher School.
Dominic Manfredi - a tough uncompromising centre, a product of Leigh Miners ARLFC.
Dom Crosby - prop forward who has shown an excellent attitude after a successful trial, has figured in the Under 20's this season.
John O'Donnell - Back Row forward who has joined the Warriors from Wigan St Pats.
Tom Spencer - prop forward who has been with the Club for two years. Played for the GB Community Lions under 19's in a recent tour in South Africa.
Ryan Hilliard - scrum half with good creativity and an excellent kicking game. Has come from Pilkington Recs, another success of the Warriors trialling system.
Jaydon Sandford - full back who has figured in the Under 18's this season, a product of Wigan St Pats.
What's the betting they'll all have signed for the Giants in two years time
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So do you count these areas as Castleford as Leeds or as neither?
They are very adjacent to Castleford. You only need to turn right at the end of Wheldon Road, go over the two bridges and you're in Leeds - politically. Speaking as someone who worked in Cas for 10 years, most of those living in the places I named treat Cas as the place to go out for a meal, or a drink, or to shop, or to watch sport. The centre of Cas is much larger than that which would be needed for a town of its size.
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Keith Senior gets the digs in and never seems to cop for any.
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Someone once posted on here (may have been Kenny Tiger) that most people on the terraces at Castleford aren't from Castleford. (sorry Kenny if it wasn't you.)
Castleford is not that big a place. But for the surrounding areas, Ledsham, Ledston, Allerton Bywater, Kippax, Methley,South Milford, Sherburn in Elmet, Monk Fryston (all of which are in Leeds MDC BTW) Castleford is their main shopping town, and centre. They are today all large residential areas, and presumably supply large numbers of Cas's crowd.
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If there's a Morrisons there and they can get Pooles meat and potato pies then the answer is probably yes
However, the people I stand with at Fev are there every game.
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In the Anvil on Friday before Wigan's game the usual suspects from Oxford, Birmingham and Bristol were in attendance, they role up every game.
Does that mean those places are considered part of Wigan.
If there's a Morrisons there and they can get Pooles meat and potato pies then the answer is probably yes
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Haven't we just had a record weekend for attendances? Maybe they are happy with how things are and under the impression a suitable number of "customers" are in agreement.
For the top of SL. What about the rest? Salford, Bradford, Crusaders, Harlequins? Attendences are certainly down in the Championship - nowt to play for except a tick in a box. Which if posts on here are to be believed will mean absolutely nothing when the decsions are taken.
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Does that include Knottingley and Normanton, assuming Pontefract is sided with Featherstone.
Fev certainly draws fans from Ferrybridge, Knottingley, even Kellington and Snaith. The group I stand with come from these areas, plus Barnsley. I come from Morley - 12 miles away and I'm not the only one.
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Why should you be asked, supporters really do get ideas above their station. You are just a customer buying a product.
I don't recall Mars asking all their customers for permission to change the name of Marathon to Snickers.
Companies like Mars do market research amongst their customers all the time. As do most companies (never filled a questionaire in on your way back from Greece Dave?) So why don't the RFL seek the views of its customers? Frightened of getting the wrong answers perhaps.
15 years on
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted · Edited by Trojan
I certainly think that Oldham are a sleeping giant given the amount of talent the town has produced. Harris, Eastmond, Barrie Mac, Sinfield, the Sculthorpes are just a few recent names off the top of my head