The Parksider
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Posts posted by The Parksider
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I believe eventually there will have to be less clubs, Which those clubs will be I don't know,, but It wont be the ones without any money.
I suspect we will never agree, so we will have to agree to differI don't think we differ much. We both believe there will have to be less clubs.
We both believe these clubs have to have money.
Where we wildly differ is the definition of having money. You think it's having a multi-millionaire owner.I think it's having a large fan base and many local businesses interested in the club
Which club is the richer one? One with empty stands and no academy,or one with 15,000 fans packed in and a vibrant player production line?. I think the latter.
Your accountancy seems such that just because the rich man has £Millions in the bank the club is rich. Please consider the salary cap, he can be no richer than that in his input - unless he spends well on his academy which he doesn't.
You seem to think going into administration means a club has no money. Bradford will have £1.800,000 a year from SKY more than the salary cap, Bradford will have big crowds whether 8,000 or 15,000. To paint them as having no money is wrong, they didn't have enough money because their fellow clubs took £1,200,000 off them. That's the truth of it.
Finally you take the stance that we should have less clubs but that if we cut the number of clubs fans "won't watch another club". How can you know the minds of tens of thousands of RL fans and assume they all think the same? We saw with Bradord that their "fans" in 1995 numbered an average of 5654.
Somehow they managed to attract another 10,000 fans and more? All Bradford born, never been outside of Bradford?
I'm fine to agree to disagree but the points above are there to deal with if you wish.
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Dont you watch Hunslet?
Not that much. My lad is a Leeds fan.
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And this, as far as I am concerned is the problem with our sport
"I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League." Oh, dear!
This is hardly the expression of someone excited about the sport, the new season or the interesting ingredients that the Red Devils will bring to the recipe no it's assuming it will all end in tears
Sadly you've posted nonsense, and what's more you only had to ask me direct.
I'll be following Superleague on a season ticket at one club, visiting Bulls, farts, Wakey and cas as always, wathcing all TV games, enjoying the debates on here whilst annoying people, enjoying the politics of the game and watching the rise of some clubs and personalities and the inevitable falls of others.
I'll be in my 50th. year of loving this great game.
I was down watching LMU in the RL cup saturday, great game great club.
Yes I believe the salford soap opera will not have a great ending but then again soap operas need some light and shade to be interesting and good viewing.
Yes I believe the new structure is pants but so what. It'll be fun seeing if some of us are right or if the others are wrong. Once it's chucked out I reckon a fantastic new structure will come in, can't wait for this year? I can't wait for any year with R.L. in it.
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So when they were the only SL club of any worth in the area and drawing their 20.000 crowds, With a team full of N Zealanders, and very successful, How did they end up where they are now.
Why would Huddersfield do well if they were the only club in the region, You have heard people state on here time and time again, They would pack in before watch another club, so where are Hudderfield to get these fans from , that will make them do very well.
Truth is Parky that League is a business like any other, If you cant produce the raw material in your area ,you get it in from an area where they have a surplus, It doesn't stop you from trying to improve. as long as you are competitive what more do you want. I agree big crowds are a big bonus, and it would be nice to be like Wigan, but if you are going to get rid of everyone who falls short of that, well down the road go Saints Wolves widnes , and Salford.
In West yorkshire everyone bar Leeds would have to go, And with Bradfords demise in recent seasons why haven't Leeds been surging even further ahead
Bradford's demise was well documented, they didn't have money man, stretched themselves financially made a big mistake with the Harris saga made a big mistake with the cheap season tickets, the old ground was a millstone and they tipped over the edge. You can paint that as carefree heavy overspending if you want.
It may also suit you to join the small number of "we would pack in" merchants "rather than watch another club". Those who say nobody from Halifax watches Bradford, nobody from Huddersfield was born anywhere but Huddersfield, and Bradford people don't go outside their town boundaries. It's like the Hull/HKR argument where nobody will watch Hull from East Hull and will all turn to soccer if Rovers packed in.
Make something up and then use it as an argument. In soccer and RL audiences come from far and wide and local loyalties have declined massively.
People want top class RL the world cup told you that, unless you also subscribe to the silly world cup argument that the 9.000 at Rochdale for te Fiji game were all from Rochdale.
If you haven't the players but have the money in Soccer you can do what Manchester City do, import and the quality player base of the premiership becomes international class and stadia pack out. In RL where there are no real surpluses that's why SL is shrinking you can sign them off another club and deplete them instead.
Your next illogical argument that if you leave a club out of SL because it doesn't add enough to it you may as well leave them all out. It's the same simplistic nonsense that you should not have mergers because inevitably you'll have to merge Wigan and Saints. Well you just won't.
Another unsound argument is that the game has to keep all it's "core" fans happy ignoring the thousands who may come to matches if there's something exciting on offer. Thousands did go to Bulls thousands don't go to Fartown. My point remains that the game need one club per region to swallow as much resources as they can to increase the number of big attractive clubs.
They don't have to get 20,000, they just need to break even. The sticking point though is the quality of players, not enough are being produced, we have duff academies where it's easier to just buy someone else's players, and that's a big problem. What if all the chairmen decided to do that?
I await to see how the Marwan Koucash way goes next year at the Manchester City of Rugby League.
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I'll assume you have no answer to the Bradford bit.
it's answered, Bradford would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.
Huddersfield would do very well if they were the only SL club in their region.
But Bradford's record on fans and player development is much bigger.
However the weight of small town club fans opinions is such Bradford will be no more soon, as they are apparently going to go on shrinking and losing £Millions....
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I do know what your views are , And i agree about the desirabillity of big crowds and good acadamies, But what are we supposed to do suspend the game till we have 12 clubs that are in that catagory , That's not an option is it?
Of course it is an option and it is an option that has been taken today.
More TV money will mean loss making SL clubs on lower crowds can have those losses reduced or wiped out enabling them to become solvent SL clubs. Toulouse present another option.
I wouldn't worry about KD he's aligned with Lenigan and isn't going anywhere.
I'll just keep to my opinion the games needs one club per region, and needs bums on seats and kids in effective academies
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The general consensus from left field has always been about how incompetent the RFL are, couldn't run the what's-it in the proverbial blah blah blah.
But this would mean not only are they brilliant but deserve all our plaudits and applause for managing to marry all the contradictory factions and demands across RL and get them more or less on side with it all.
The RFL have stuffed most championship clubs hopes, reduced the chance of top championship clubs going up, and have obtained a poor increase in the value of the SKY deal - apparently 30% (so well done Padge). This was an offer the championship clubs could not refuse, enabling the RFL to use the tail to wag the dog (well done Padge again)all to secure Mr. Wood and his regime.
Not brilliant at all?
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Realistically, it is. Unless they go for broke, which Sheffield won't do. The only chance now is to bide their time until the system changes again. In the meantime, the club will have more money than it had before and an opportunity to build a new base at Owlerton.
Leigh, Featherstone and Halifax have no choice but to try to take this opportunity, slim though it is. And even then, not all three of them will succeed.
Indeed Tim it's a put up or shut up invitation which I fear will either see someone from CC get a foothold (slim chance as you say) or put the nails finally in the coffin of their "destination SL" campaigns.
I'm looking like you to the next step already and I wonder Tim wether they would bring back a 14 club Superleague in say three years with London, Toulouse and Catalans in there??
Outside that a network of small championship clubs across the country.
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As I stated on another thread Craiq
"unless all along it has been ( the new structure) one calculated and very effective scam by the RL to entice a bigger contract from SKY and keeping the 12 teams who start 2016 in the SL for perpetuity"
I have not yet seen how the funding is to be allocated, are the figs being quoted actual as published by the RL or are they a supposition for the sake of a debating point?
You may not be far off there Gary. The actual funding per season pays £300K to all SL clubs to ease financial woes, it pays for all SL clubs to meet the current cap and a bit more £1,800,000, it pays for the two relegated SL clubs to stay afloat to the tune of 800K, and finally it gives the top two championship clubs £500K to try to get into the 12.
It looks like a put up or shut up to clubs who aspire to SL wether current members moaning about the cost or CC clubs moaning about the lack of opportunity.
Only 16 clubs seem to be in this fight for 12 Superleague places. My guess is they'll give it a few years whilst lenagan ousts Wood and then it will be 12 clubs in SL with a play off every 2 years between bottom SL club and top CC club. Lenegans heavily loaded P & R plan
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Who will be the stake holders in SLE?
Will it be the same 14 clubs that we have now,or will it just be the 12 club who are left after two are relegated at the end of this season?
Or will all clubs become stake holders?
The 12 who are left.
Who will be their boss is the bigger question.....
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Mark Aston weighs in on this topic.
"I think the other championship clubs have been bought as they’re all thinking they’ll get more money,” Aston told the Yorkshire Post, with the RFL having just secured another major broadcasting deal with Sky Sports that incorporates the second tier.“I know I’ll get shot down for this but some of the top-end Championship sides have already bought a team for Super League too.If, though, they don’t get in those top two spots – it’s not top four as, remember, two Super League clubs are coming down at the end of this year – then what happens then? “They are going for broke and, quite simply, if they don’t get in that top two next year, they’ll be bust"
Thanks Tim. Note "They" I think Aston has signalled the end of Sheffield's SL dream there.
the "top end" sides can only be Fev, Fax and Leigh, but I can't see either of the two latter, now down to 1,600 crowds managing to compete.
For Craiq the top two CC clubs this year will get £500K If that's Fev and Sheffield again then Aston is saying Halifax and Leigh will be stuffed.
If Featherstone didn't make one of the two £500K slots then as they are already running what was it £875,000 worth of liabilities maybe he is especially talking about them??
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The Parksider
Does that mean that the half million wouldn't be given to a championship side going up? I don't doubt your word here I just don't know! I am glad there is a parachute payment because that has been my concern about relegation returning the devastating effects it has have always bordered on the criminal and that can't be up for debate even if you're promotion's biggest champion!
The deal protects the two relegated clubs from financial collapse giving them around £800K to play in the championship with. They may be able to keep a number of players on full time.
This happened when clubs like Salford, Castleford and Fartown went down under P & R. Wilkinson, Fulton and Davey backed them with money. IIRC Huddersfield went undefeated, Cas lost one and Salford lost two games so the parachute payment loads the dice for these relegated clubs if they maintain their chairman's backing as well.
Four SL clubs in the play off will be all the stronger and debt free thanks to this deal.
That leaves two current CC clubs to probably be the underdogs in the first round of "8" Fev, Leigh or Fax.
They will have had a £500K boost pre-season allowing them to try to strengthen their squads, but only at the last minute before the new structure starts, and that could be a problem for them as it always was for top CC clubs when we had P & R before.
That's my quick analysis but it looks like the middle "8" is loaded. What I will be looking for is the top CC clubs crying "foul". Bet they don't.....
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Finances can change as well as formats, Parky. But, on the other hand, looking at the proposals, I'm wondering just how much the RFL want this to work.
London and one other will leave SL this season on a parachute payment of £780K
Two of probably Leigh, Fax and Fev will win £500K for coming top of the championship.
So in 2015 expect six well funded SL clubs and two CC clubs with funds to battle for four SL places..
It will be fascinating to see how it pans out, which SL club will collapse under the strain which CC club may just get a foothold.
IMVHO expect little change the RFL are merely making sure two CC clubs get a chance to fight for promotion. Everyone else in the CCC's stay as they are fighting for survival.
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Never a truer word. Change has come, change will no doubt come again and not be long about it.
We just can't make our minds up, can we ?
I'm cool with the new format. If it hadn't been voted in this year, there'd've been a constant whining noise in the background until we tried it and showed it to be the complete tosh that it is.
Check out how it's to be funded Griff, two SL clubs to drop to the championship and with parachute payments to be given and another half a million to be given them if they then finish first or second they should be the ones in pole position to get back there.
Check out the funding for the current CC clubs likely to be 3-12. Peanuts in comparison, awful deal for the Championship clubs IMHO however I'll let your well honed financial mind makes it's own judgement....
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1. So what about clubs like Warrington, I don't think they are particularly Famous for their production line, They are still a good club that is growing, and benefiting from a wealthy owner, They get their players from somewhere, and good luck to them.
2. So if KD cleared off it would be all Wine and Roses at Bradford,
3. If a Millionaire came and bought Hunslet tomorrow, You wouldn't want him because it would be bad for the health of Leeds Rhino's, Yeah makes sense.4. So you don't care that clubs should be financially sound
1. Warrington have a history of poor player development, but they now have a good academy and are improving, and they turn 10,000 crowds in a modern stadia. They beat Fartown on both these important points, fans and player development.
2. KD can do what he wants, but you tell me what would be left if he did clear off?? Don't you remember what was left at Salford when Mr. Wilkinson cleared off. The best players cleared off and many fans cleared off.
3. No I would not want a millionaire at Hunslet tell me what the point would be?? He would not build us a ground, he could not spend any more than the cap and would not be able to attract young players.
Perhaps think about how limited untold riches is when your in a game of very limited resources and financial caps?
4. Salford again. Nobody is financially sound simply from sugar daddies, that's where you have it wrong.
Financial soundness comes from a big fanbase and a great local junior scene/academy that produces players.
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The new structure is good, the investment is good. Introspection and waffling is Canute-esque.
God luck with the miserableness,
Well let's see how it pans out before you announce it IS a good structure.
Your continuous mantra that the change has come so that's that, is ostriches head in the sand-esque.
There are two factions in SL, and one still has the power to ensure the new structure isn't that "good" through funding decisions, alternatively in return for power they may return to another structure they actually support, in time.
Your Canute analogy IS simply wrong and your attempt to paint those who want to debate the structure as "miserable" does you no favours.
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Best Tell KD to B****** off then , That will do Bradford and Wakey a power of good, Not to mention Huddersfield.
While we are at it the Dr as well, Who cares about Salford.
" Super league will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense"
It sure as H** won't grow without Money, If we get rid of these money men, How do you see that helping to Deliver the Sky contract ?
I would tell them to be off if all they do is sit back and replace crowds and player growth with money.
Why bother with an academy or local junior clubs - just buy up pro-players grown by more industrious clubs, why bother opening any turnstiles? Who needs fans when you can just pay for the empty seats?
And yes it would do Bradford a power of good if Ken was off. They may get their academy on track again and keep the excellent players they have had to sell, they may get crowds back up to 15,000.
Whilst you may think chucking a £Million or so at a club every year for 10 years is investment, it isn't if the level of quality local players doesn't go up or if the crowds don't go up.
On that model we could have a Superleague consisting of the bottom 12 clubs in the RFL, all financially sound because tens of £Millions is chucked into every club. My simple point is invest in the clubs who can provide the best returns. I bet that's what you do when you invest your money?
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When did Wakey stop being a small club? I must have missed it.
I didn't, they hit the buffers financially at a time when they had rising crowds of over 6,000 on an anticipation of getting the quality stadium the area needed. The new Chairman saved the club and rallied the fans to further crowd improvements to an average of 8,172, not bad when the club only sneaked into eighth place.
They were the eighth best supported club in Superleague 2012, and anyone who knows what effect a new stadium has on Superleague clubs in big traditional areas like Warrington and Hull knows they add thousands to the gate.
You need to look at how big the City is compared to small places like Castleford and Featherstone, do you want me to do the figures? I noted when Wakefield got 11,000 in for a relegation decider just what support there is out there if the club can get the ground and the finances.
Did you see last season they had a 10,000 crowd for Leeds in a re-arranged late season game and remained the eighth best supported club in Superleague despite sever financial problems and dropping into the bottom four??
Would you have called Hull a "small club" in 1998 when they finished in the same place as Wakefield last year on much smaller crowds of 5,741. How about Warrington were they a "small club" that same year when they finished just under Hull on 4,897 ??
Superleague is a business yet it restructures as a rich mans lottery. Small clubs like Fartown, Salford and Featherstone are set to fly whilst clubs like Wakefield and Bradford are set to fall, True businesses look for the best investments and back them.
Would you doubt that with a new ground the eighth biggest RL club in Europe could not kick on and become the giant it once was, would you doubt that if that club had full access to the second biggest Junior set up in Europe - Wakefield MDC - they wouldn't be able to be as big as Leeds and Wigan?
If Wakefield are small the lord help the smaller than smalls......
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It would be great to see Stadiums full again, until such times are upon us we have to go with what we have, that is the reality, I don't know why these money men pick the clubs they do,( I make no excuse for Fartown taking Bradfords place with a less fan base), maybe you could talk one of them into changing clubs.
What for? So they can just buy up players from the bigger clubs and bring them down, whilst doing little to improve crowds at their own club whilst depleting crowds at others.
That is the reality and no we do not have to go with what we have. We have two strong areas in Calder and Bradhudderfax, and I'd remind you that when Bradford were competing they could turn crowds as high as 23,000 for Leeds. Huddersfield managed 7,756 for the same fixture last year.
I want those missing 15,000 fans paying to watch Superleague, not Ken Davey writing cheques for the losses. Superleague needs private investment in the right places and on the right things. Yes we need someone to bankroll Wakey and Bradford, but because they aren't there it s no reason to watch them disintegrate whilst houses of cards are built at small clubs.
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The Academy argument goes back to the 80s because in the 80s all the good Huddersfield lads ended up playing for Bradford, Halifax and even Wigan. Nowadays, the good Halifax and, increasingly, Bradford lads end up playing for Huddersfield. Swings and roundabouts. The ascendency point isn't "yah boo", it's actually pointing out that when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in. What goes around comes around.
In terms of the Huddersfield Academy, I don't know what Ken Davy thinks about it. Maybe you're right and he doesn't care. Then again, the Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it - 2 of whom are England regulars who've never played for anyone else. Sure, I'd like that to be 10 players, but 4 ain't bad and especially ain't bad when two of those are Leroy Cudjoe and Eorl Crabtree. And then again, when the 20 man England Academy squad was announced last autumn it had more Huddersfield players (three) in it than any other club bar Wigan. And just for fun, one of the two Wire Academy players selected came from Meltham All Blacks in Huddersfield.
As for it needing improvement, I don't know what the criteria for that is. I'll tell you what though, in the league last year the Giants U19s finished 5th. Above the likes of those mighty rugby league nurseries Hull and Wakefield. Personally, I don't think U19 results tell you a lot, but it's still there in black and white.
That's more like it!!
Anyway I picked out your sentence "when the boot was on the other foot, those clubs wasted no time in sticking it in". For me that says it all in that in your region (and others like Calder and Hull) where we see clubs sticking the boot into each other depending who is top dog and taking scarce resources to boost themselves at the expense of others.
Another May gem is "The Giants first choice 17 has 4 Huddersfield Academy products in it".
Steve, I don't know when Ken Davey seriously came on board to make Huddersfield a true Supeleague club, I would guess 2002 when the club were unbeaten on promotion from CC1 before 2,600 fans.
That's over TEN years ago and Ken has spent how many millions to develop 4 Huddersfield lads into professionals and find another 3,800 fans. Truly appalling stats that I expect to be even worse at Salford where there's even less junior clubs to develop players from and even more apathy for watching the club.
My point is a simple one and is not having a go at anyone. I don't think Superleague can afford to allow multi-millionaires to dictate their small clubs should be in Superleague, using their money to put the boot into bigger more resourceful clubs to the overall detriment of the flagship competition.
Bradford brought crowds of over 20,000 to Superleague and although they started late, they developed an effective academy that brought through talent in number other clubs are now picking off as they stick the boot in the Bulls.
Superleague will never grow whilst it continues this sort of nonsense.....
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Population of Swinton is what?
Population of Hunslet is what?
Population of Huddersfield is what?
1. 34,000
2. 18,000
3. 146,000
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Not interested in junior development? I'll ponder that next time Leroy Cudjoe passes the ball to Jermaine McGilvary. As for snatching players - have a look at some of the club sides in the 80s. If Huddersfield had actually been able to keep hold of all the local players at that time they'd have been in the top 4 every year. What goes around comes around on that one. Huddersfield are in the ascendancy over Bradford, so they get the pick of Bradford's players.
This isn't the Steve May I used to know on here giving up on 3 of the four points? Anyway welcome back...
Your argument on the academy went back to the 1980's for some obscure reason and nobody said Huddersfield don't field a few Huddersfield lads in any event Steve. The fact is the Fartown Academy scores a "needs improvement" third rate, and when you have such a rich owner it begs the question is he bothered. I'd say no. The rumour is he takes the view why spend money developing players when you can just go out and buy them ready made.
Your "Ascedancy" point is a yah boo we have the money now one.
This is the problem with all these clubs crammed together fighting for the same resources. One minute one has the money and the other is depressed, then next they go bust and the other gets the ascendency and the musical chairs of failure goes on whilst the big four get on with tidying up on the cups that matter.
I'm just waiting for Hull to go bust so HKR can be on the up, Featherstone to buy up Cas players and send them bust, and Halifax to move in once Davey goes.
This is what is exciting about the boom and bust world of traditional Rugby league, long may it reign - well for a few years yet.......
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1. It's rather boring to have to revisit the Giants crowd situation every ten minutes,
2. You're spot on. The club had atrophied to the point where there were perhaps 200 regular attendees at games. Right now, a whole new generation of fans is having to be built up literally from nowhere.
3. The scale of Ken Davy's achievement at the Giants needs to be thought of in terms of Hunslet or Swinton being resurrected from the near-dead to go and top the table.
1. Try being told 1,000 times how Leigh will fly in SL, how Featherstone will produce whole teams from their academy and Sheffield are so well managed it's time for Superleague. Now that is boring.
2. He's not spot on, it's 25 years since Huddersfield averaged crowds below 1,000?
3. The scale of Ken Davey's achievements are fabulous if your one of the 6,368 fans who support them. Outside of that he's not interested in junior developent, and is happy to snatch players from Bradford which assists their demise.
Uncle Ken gets less fans into Fartown than he did six years ago
Is Ken doing Superleague a favour by replacing Bradford with Fartown in SL?? I suspect Ken is doing Mrs. Davey a favour.....
Should we rejoice if Koucash decides to outbid Wigan for their players and put them in the Swinton team? If I win the lottery will it do the game a favour if I build Hunslet a 10K stadium and chase Leeds players??
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I agree in general with most of what you have posted on this thread, and i agree about there being to many clubs in west Y, however due to the difficulties of expansion we have to have enough clubs to run an elite comp.
It seems to me that you judge a club as a true SL if it gets a crowd average of say 15,000 fans, I can see your way of thinking that may make a club self sustaining, that may be true. Myself i don't care whether they are self sustaining or not, I am bothered about whether they can compete or not and if they are good to watch ,Either live or on TV,
I can see there may be trouble down the line for all clubs who are depending on people putting money in to keep them up there, We have to wait and see about that,
For the time being we need 12 SL clubs real or otherwise to deliver to Sky, The ones that you seem to consider real at the moment seem to me to amount to 2, with 2/3 others getting there,
The chairmen themselves have come out and stated their crowd averages needed to run a club with sustainability. None of them said 15,000. In good stadium with facilities that up the take per head 8,000 was the figure e.g Salford, for older stadium 10,000 was the figure e.g. Bradford.It's worth actually noting what they say.
Nobody has said 12 is the right figure, it's a reduction to 12, 10 is a figure some people in the game support. You may not care that some "super" clubs are nothing but a rich man throwing £Millions into a half empty stadium and non functioning Academy, but I believe that fans and professional players are somehow the lifeblood of a vibrant game. Don't you??
The multi-millionaire skews the game as it is currently structured, hence your club with respect literally can't attract half the fans Bradford can, and it is said has no regard for Junior development. When the clubs were trying to keep Bradford afloat with the player transfer embargo who broke that? Huddersfield of course.
I love Fartown and had a walk around the old ground the other week (the two old turnstyles are gone now), I have been countless time and stood there in the lowest crowd ever when they used it to play out a late season Trafford.v.Nottingham game. I don't have it in for your club or any club, but a choice between the Bradford of a few years ago and Fartown today is a no brainer but economic reality and a cowardly decision on restructuring is forcing that choice.
The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
Try again please.
I am not the one going round insulting Marwan Koucash?.
I do not "want it to end badly" where on earth do you get that rubbish from?
Your stance seems to be that I should be sat here wishing all clubs win the league, all 37 of them.
They won't, sport is about winners and losers, for every winner there is a loser, but apparently I'm not allowed to talk about who may be losers and if I do I apparently want them to lose.
Again you have told me what I think, when all you had to do was ask.
I think that mega rich men taking on clubs with few fans and little player development are more likely to be the losers because what people cannot get their head round is SKY are now paying the salary bills of the SL clubs. The RFL are currrently maintaining a £1.65 salary cap.
So if Mr. Koucash has £Billions to put into Salford he cannot do it. He says so himself. So how is he going to get them to the top as things stand??