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The Parksider

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  1. I've left your whole post intact because it's a complete nonsense. Building a club up to a high professional level is just that, no matter what the league system is. The League system does not find a club a decent ground...... the league system does not organise an "A" team .......the league system does not secure a TV deal........the league system does not build a junior game.........the league system does not get corporate backers on board. The league system has absolutely nothing to do with building up a club............. As for the timescales again what on earth are you trying to say? Doesn't it occur to you that a semi pro french club like TO needs some time to plan and "grow" to be a fully fledged professional Rugby League Club worthy of Superleague. TWP in three years do not have a decent ground......they do not have a reserve team........they do not have a TV deal......there is no player development........they only have one backer.........In fact they themselves talk about needing 10-15 years to bring the player development thing about so they are struggling to grow although you won't see how wrong you are, others with an open mind will easily get this. In 2012 the SL bosses planned to give it 3 years before letting TO in so they would be better prepared, as it was they actually came in after 4 years, and having got to the top of the Championship after three more years the Superleague bosses are now ready to let them in Superleague as they have built a club ready for Superleague. Again how you manage to argue about the league system changing between 2012 and now has any relevance to TO being given the green light to working towards Superleage by McManus and Lenegan, and them doing just that I don't know? You tell me you are a teacher?? Really?? With respect to you drop the vendetta you have against me as it makes you look silly. What on earth did you mean about "The Landscape changing"? In 2012 we have three leagues and P & R and today in 2019 we still have three leagues and P & R, Absolutely nothing has changed relevant to Toulouses's inclusion?. In 2006 if SL wanted to add Catalans they had the power to do so and did it. They still have that power to now include Toulouse and not only that they indicate strongly now in 2019 they will do it - on what earthly basis do you think anyone can stop them doing this??? In your last line you say "An article from 7 years ago is your evidence that it's happening today?" No No No....... My evidence is both Legenan and McManus who backed TO in 2012, who said they would put them in the Leagues here in 2015 and actually did that 2016 and who looked to TO building towards inclusion in Superleague have BOTH OPENLY STATED IN ARTICLES IN RECENT WEEKS THEY ARE NOW READY TO DO THIS. What the article said they would do in 2012 they have gone on to actually announce they will now do? The 2012 article was just the start of a long term plan featuring a series of articles on their progress down the years to give TO the green light to build in the French comp, come over to the English comp, build through the Championships and then one they have French players (they have) and "A" Team (they have) a decent ground lined up (they have) and a collection of backers (they have) then they would be placed into Superleague - something both Legegan and McManus openly and publicly say they are likely to do for next year???. I am not your librarian, I am not your researcher....You need to sit down and look up the story of Toulouse's march, from the evening of that dinner in 2012, to the top of the French game, to their inclusion here, to their rise to the top echelons of the Championship, and now to them being openly touted to be included alongside Les Catalans in Superleague by the same people who approved that journey in 2012 at the Dinner in Toulouse..........
  2. Well people ignore the same thing over and over again, anyway something new for you to ponder below. If you can't hold your manners and want to call me a liar here's the League Express article, if you don't believe it then contact League Express, but I have the cutting in front of me now...... Lenegan backs Toulouse By Mike Rylance – League Express 21-5-2012 Wigan chairman Ian Lenegan has given his support to Toulouse’s bid for Superleague in 2015…Lenegan was invited to speak last week at a dinner attended by over 200 guests from the business and sporting world. Speaking in French Lenegan addressed members of the Table D’Ovale, an organisation funded by Chairman Carlos Zalduendo to promote the club to important figures in Toulouse, before emphasising the importance of Toulouse’s application to the (English) competition… The Wigan Chairman explained…Four major clubs – Wigan, Leeds, St.Helens and Warrington had also met and backed Toulouse for entry to Superleague 2015. Lenegan said he was well aware of the economic potential of Toulouse and the mid-pyrenes region which he saw as an excellent opportunity for development. He explained Toulouses application would need to be backed by the development of French players playing at that level, a viable financial plan, a TV deal and a stadium which met the necessary standards. Following a long ovation Lenegan was succeeded by Francois Briancon Deputy Mayor of Toulouse with responsibility for Sport in the city…….. ________________________________________________________________________________ Later than planned In 2016 Toulouse duly returned to the British game and worked their way up to the top end of the Championship where they are now. Audois recently noted a move soon to Stade Ernest Wallon. In addition Toulouse qualify on the criteria of a reserves side with the Toulouse Olympic Broncos. As said before Elstone has been dealing with the TV situation and is looking for a two club package deal providing a French home SL game every week and of course three French derby games with Les Catalans. It’s quite clear who the very top four Superleague bosses – Ian Lenegan, Eamon McManus, Simon Moran and Paul Caddick are backing to join Superleague next season, and that is Toulpuse Olympic who they have been backing since 2012. Given the derogatory comments about Toronto Wolfpack from McManus the other week, Toronto being squeezed out of even qualifying for Superleague on the no reserves issue, and Ian Lenegan’s continued thumbs up for Toulouse again this week I cannot logically see any other situation than Toulouse for Superleague, given the overwhelming evidence for that scenario. Add to that Danny Lockwoods assertion if TWP were to win the play off, Superleague would be “Ready with their excuses” to ignore them. It does not take a genius to conclude Toulouse are red hot favourites to get the thumbs up for entry to Superleague by meeting all the criteria asked of them in 2012 by the top four clubs who have always favoured them for SL, and have nothing much to say about TWP. You just need to look these things up......... Apology please if you are such a Gentleman?
  3. No sorry, when the SL bosses first met TO in France when they had a big dinner event around 2012 they were all for TO to be in Superleague but told them they must contribute to the TV money and produce players, both of which Catalans had been lax in doing. Lenegan and McManus were there cheerleading the idea of Touluse, and have done this ever since, and now are openly talking about accepting them into Superleague next year and are looking with Elstone and the two french clubs for a TV deal now, based on them both being in Superleague next year providing a french home game every week and three french derbies. Hey- what's not to like there but there is more........? A deal that would involve not just TV money but French SL players in both sides and of course the catalans reserves and the toulouse reserves who play in the French Competition, also qualify TO to be in Superleague. Please remember Argyle ignored this mandatory entry requirement that already disqualifies TWP. A French deal could also boost the french playing numbers and bring back a meaningful Great Britain versus France test match series?? Hey - what about that that was the whole point of French expansion? How can Canadian expansion ever bring us test matches? Your "point" is so narrow with respect it's no point at all. I may be wrong but it appears inconceivable that the two top SL bosses who have neen backed by several other SL bosses in working towards Toulouse coming in for a number of years, in which Toulouse have french players, have reserves and have every chance of being part of a french TV deal and GB test games........... Would just abandon their plans for france and all that hard work to allow a team into Superleague they see as a "Team of antipodeans and English players dressed up in canadian jerseys" As McManus called them and I am sure his colleagues agree..... I know that there is an idea if TWP win it they go up, but I am afraid that if they do go up what a booby prize that would be for the SL bosses who have had their hearts set on more from France for some years now. You have to remember my friend that Toronto have no right to enter SL if SL says no. They have been saying yes to France for years now and the signs are really good for more French players, GB/French Tests, French derbies, bigger French TV deal with a game shown every week. The overwhelming evidence across several seasons now is Superleague want and can have Toulouse next year. Aren't Toulouse signing to play in a bigger stadium?? Well after my post above you may need to think again, but better than that actually look up the whole story about Superleague and the inclusion of France. I've set out the basics for you above, but all the ya-boo aside Superleague really do need to move on Toulouse now. As for Bob Hunter, I wonder what length of contract has he signed? Three months may be enough to firstly see TWP maintain their proud best to see the season out to the play off final which I think they will do as sportsmen. After that they will carry on whilst Superleague decide who to promote, and make no mistake again, they do not have to promote TWP and have refused entry to member clubs before (never mind how long ago this was) it still stands. If they are in SL then Mr. Hunter can look forward to a contract extension, rather than see his last month out selling off the playing staff and what few other assets they may have, before looking to wind up the Ltd. Company BUT......... Toronto and Argyle actually may surprise me (well shock me) and others and may stay in the Championship to fight on to earn a Superleague place another day (how he will manage to field reserves though I don't know). I think that the reason Ottawa backed off starting 2020 was to see what happens with TWP. Perez was going to at least hire a coach but I think he even backed off that? Finally Mr. Hunter must still talk about promotion and finding a bigger ground, if the beer tents get wind of a block on TWP for SL (I think dropping the last two regular season games from TV was a signal) ticket sales would plummet for the play offs. They would not even be able to "give tickets away" (sorry guys could not resist) Thanks for that your a Gentleman. It's gone on for three years now and I'm pretty immune to it. I take my dressings down from the Mods if I go too far, and I don't report anyone to them because those two Gentlemen have better things to do. I look at it like this SL17 = If they are concentrating on insulting me and demonising me then it only shows they cannot actually engage in the facts of the matter to hand. As we approach what may be the ultimate moment in the ultimate debate I can only reflect just how much evidence there is - so much from the SL horses mouth - that whatever happens Toulouse are most likely going up and not TWP. I also reflect how Argyle backed off some weeks ago, when maybe he got the word himself (for I cannot believe that true gentlemen can look to be pre-deciding Toulouse are going up without privately telling Mr. Argylle in advance) I think Mr. Argyle may have been told and that's why he's pretty much gone to ground. I know there's this idea Hunter is looking to "take TWP to the next level" (rather than see the season out, and wind things up with minimum losses) but they are hardly going to say that are they.....
  4. The debate about wether it's good to follow the Perez plan and have a transatlantic league or follow the Superleague plan to have an anglo-french league certainly puts people into two opposite camps. But be under no illusion, ever since TWP appeared (In the championship) I have always said I welcome them wholeheartedly, it's just that I do not welcome them joining Superleague because they will replace a club who underpins TV deals and produces players. That club will go into demise. Keep repeating that and well before we get to a transatlantic league SKY will have pulled the plug as the English content will have dropped below the level SKY require. What maybe makes me angry is that some people think insulting others and calling for them to be banned is good. I've no problem at all with as many NA clubs coming into the Championship who may try to grow the game in North America developing players and TV deals, and neither do the Championship have a problem either. It's just that those who do not actually care about the health of the game, are bored with the M62, and just fancy a novelty act or two entering the SL stage don't like being pulled up on the damage this will do to the game we love....That OK with you?? My head certainly won't explode, don't forget when I made the arguments against TWP being the saviours of Rugby league here, converting grid iron players to RL, bringing in massive North American TV deals, and waking North America up to the fantastic game of Rugby league NA fans would flock to, selling out the World Cup venues ..... It was other persons heads who exploded...................... "Put him on ignore" "he's an idiot" etc etc etc many times over. But three years on you know as well as I do that what few NA players they had they sacked, that Canada RL hasn't produced any quality players in 10 years, Argyle hasn't bothered to even try, TWP pay to be on TV and have cancelled two showings, and immense amounts of money has to be paid out to prop this all up. NA World cup went "pop", Poor Brian Noble appears to have walked, Argylle found a heck of an excuse to excuse himself from TWP, and apparently the bills are piling up and not being promptly paid. I think if you are keen on TWP succeeding as a viable and successful club, then maybe it's yours and David Argyles head that should already have exploded given the total shambles the club is now in?? But if your pretend North American team win the play off at least you can keep your heads on until any decision on promotion is made. Problem is McManus seemed to have made it a few weeks ago, and only last monday in League Express lenegan confirmed he'd like to push for Toulouse as well... Why would this be resolved out of court? If TWP intend to carry on under their Limited Liability company who owe the money then of course anyone who is owed money just needs to get a lawyer to chase that money and also the said lawyers costs as well through the high court for the large debts. If the limited liability company has no money or assets (I'm sure Mr. Argyle doesn't trade as TWP personally) then anyone owed money cannot get blood out of a stone. Do you not remember the Bradford Bulls putting their limited liability company into administration and most people not getting paid. I know it's unthinkable everyone, that the Toronto Wolfpack may just call it a day and wind up, but it's looking more and more like that. So I do encourage anyone worried enough to take out insurance on their heads exploding? MEMO TO WELLSY Yes I wholeheartedly welcomed them to the Championship. I qualified this in the sentence after. See above the bit in bold where I assist you accordingly with your grammatical error.
  5. Thanks for your "opinions" Ojx. Your wrong on the TV deal and are ignoring what Perez said about it. He was NOT talking about TWP finding a small paying deal on their own so they could "contribute" to the SKY deal. SKY do not want non-English clubs, they want English clubs whose English fans buy the English subscriptions. When Perez explained what he meant by an NATV deal he explained it was a deal that would outstrip anything SKY could or would ever offer, because £200M was peanuts to NATV companies. He explained TWP would not get a significant TV deal on their own, he said (and my word this must be the 1000th. time I have quoted him saying this) he needed at least "5-6 North American clubs in Superleague to make Superleague transatlantic and give superleague enough American content to get that deal. That meant TWP, Hamilton, Boston, New York and Ottawa progressively coming into Superleague. That meant Salford, Wakefield, Castleford, Huddersfield and HKR being relegated to the championship. Perez exposed himself badly for the utter dreamer he is if he ever thought this could happen, because here's another fact not an "opinion" - If SKY don't have at least 9 English clubs in, there is no SKY deal anymore. So Perez could not get to 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague as the SKY deal goes pop when 4 are in. (but facts don't worry the man) Here's another fact not an opinion - English SL clubs directors were never going to stand by and see their SL places and players shipped to America. Those SL clubs left in Perez's utter fantasy of a "plan" would not allow their SL partners to be relegated. FACT again. when HKR were relegated there was uproar amongst the SL bosses who tried to enlarge SL to get them back. You say the "local player development is disingenuous" You know darn well the player development promised was not this at all. Perez promised to convert grid iron players to RL to provide the players, after his eight year stint with Canada RL getting nowhere growing the grass roots (so that's gone 10 years getting nowhere plus at least 10 more even if they bothered to set anything up now) He could not and did not say "oh Canadian players will be coming through in 10-15 years" HE SAID HE'D CONVERT GRID IRON PLAYERS "Pretty Quickly"....None appeared and what NA players TWP had they sacked. None of what I post here is "Opinion" so don't try the game of pretending your alternative view of actual events is just as valid as mine. I'm not forming "opinions" I'm trying to get you and Kayakman etc to admit the actual facts......The Perez plan is there for all to watch on You Tube.....but that's been ignored completely this last 3 years. Thanks for your support, go on You Tube and look up the Wood/Perez interview, listen to Perez's fantasies, and hear exactly what was promised in return for TWP entering the English game. 1. The 15 clubs who have entered reserves are now agreed and TWP did not join so TWP cannot enter Supereleague without reserves as the requirement was Mandatory. SL have stuffed them at the last minute. League Weekly's Danny Lockwood predicted this last week. 2. It appears there are mounting unpaid bills. The Billionaire may just well be cutting his losses from his limited Liability company, if he owed me anything I sure as heck would not bother making a claim for it, it would be my bad for trusting this "company" could ever turn a profit to pay bills. 3. Your wrong - again Perez never promised junior development because he was coming off the back of six years running Canada RL trying to make that work and he failed badly - he had ONE success in Quin Ngwati whose now gone back to RU. Your falling for the trick they play on here where they change the required criteria for SL entry, to pretend TWP are meeting said criteria ........ It's grid iron conversions and TV money......it was never junior development "one day in the future" or "Eyeballs"........ 4. The fans over there are NOT THE ISSUE -TWP fans pretend the fanbase and the 200 Million and growing worldwide TV eyeball audience they supposedly have are the successes of the club. This was never a measure of success at all, it was players and TV money the game here wanted not fans on free tickets 3,000 miles away. Lenegan commented that it didn't matter how many fans they said they had if they aren't coming to click the turnstyles here. This is why TWP fans are now inventing this phoney army of English TWP fans who apparently swell crowds everywhere TWP play in England. 5. Ian Lenegan has now come out to follow Mr. McManus to support Toulouse in Superleague. ("I like toulouse and I rate them highly") (one home game a week in France would be very attractive for a french broadcaster") Apparently Elstone wanted more money from Bein Sports so the latter pulled out. Superleague are now looking to sell that two club package deal to French TV. It's clear that they do not want Toronto Wolfpack in Superleague and rightly so. 6. It's looking like the unpaid bills, and cost cutting at TWP, and lenegan and McManus promoting Toulouse is telling the actual story. 7. Some time ago Argyle made a stupid inexplicable racist comment, that has enabled him to step down from the limelight, yet apparently his greatest moment was upon him - entry to SL - something he had never asked the Superleague for (so forget lawsuits because he has no automatic right to it as a guest club of the RFL only). It's my OPINION he found this a convenient way to leave the limelight before SL delivered the death blow to him publicly. 8. Someone pointed out on RL fans if you look on companies house Martin Vickers and Brian Noble are listed as officers of the TWP limited Liability company. Noble was down as resigning on the 9th. August. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/10564680/officers 9. Although accepted to the RFL in principle, absolutely zero has happened at Ottawa and New York. 10. Who knows - maybe there'll be a last minute seizmic change of heart when TWP win the play off!!! I'm not interested in "opinions" because there are enough actual facts to form an intelligent discussion on if they were just accepted and not conveniently ignored and altered, but we do not get that, because the facts are far too unpalatable for most TWP fans,who have put a lot of emotional capital in, to take............. I'm very sorry about that (but less sorry to those who thought insults and calls for me to be banned were a great way to have a debate) but a Transatlantic league was never going to work, only destroy Superleague. (cue: it's dying anyway comments!!) well it's not dying.... But it would if it tried to go Transatlantic with neither the investment, the TV deals or the player resources.
  6. You don't speak for "people", you are not the people's spokesperson. As old as the arguments are they are not opinion - they are factual - No TV money and No players - and they remain as questions to still answer. But you and the rest of the dreamers have spent 3 years pretending these serious issues do not exist as you can't answer them. What is constantly re-cycled are so called achievements of TWP that you and other TWP fanatics invent that were never criteria for joining the RFL let alone Superleague. The glamour......The massive worldwide TV audience.......the brilliant Marketing.......... But not the massive multi-Million losses Argyle makes. Wow what a business plan to follow eh?? I'm entitled to an opinion on matters that could be debatable. I'm also entitled to state the facts and that's No NA players and No TV deal and an unsustainable business. You are of course quite entitled to spend 3 years ignoring the facts No they can't do this. Read it up. The reserves have to play home and away and so that means Toronto Reserves having to play at home in Toronto through the season, including ice and snow. Superleague have already pulled TWP on the first team being unable to play at home until Easter, let alone the reserves. And the other big issue is that Argyle who has been paying for Championship clubs to travel to TWP says he won't pay for Superleague clubs to visit Toronto. You don't think for one second the Superleague bosses will pay do you? Your pretty late to the debate aren't you, so maybe you can be excused for missing the signs and signals it's the end of the road for the American dream, even though McManus publicly said it was a few weeks ago. You just don't have to look far to understand it's over. All that is left is do they carry on in the Championship, but I suspect on recent events, they won't, I suspect that as Ottawa didn't make any effort to organise starting in 2020 they too are gone before they even got going. But maybe New York will come in in 2021 and show this tired old bunch of village clubs nobody has heard of run by parochial local businessmen come Dinosaurs whose world vision ends one way in St.Helens and the other way in Hull how to do it?? Where do we go with it on here? Probably 3 years of moaning about what a fantastic opportunity the game has thrown away. If so perhaps I will be able to remind people they lost ££££Millions, they didn't produce any NA players (sacked a few mind) and they had to pay to be on TV (that's been turned off now) but I doubt anyone who was so enthusiastic about it all (to the point of clubs here suffering as they were replaced one by one by these dream clubs) will be still not be able to take such realities on board. p.s.posted on RL fans Nobby resigned last Friday, this was shown on companies house online. Wether it's reet or not??
  7. Thanks for your gentlemanly support Smudger, but I see no bullying, just cowardice, as it is so easy to be the tough guy under an anonymous name from a bedroom keyboard many miles away. Do these guys have wives? or Kids? What's up with them? Where is their integrity? By all means you and your mates and your NA clubs stay as long as you want as part of the British game and I will support the idea of one day RL taking off in North America, I don't see it for one second for the reasons I set out that are actually fair points, based on facts and research, not emotion. However the Championship and the RFL accepted North America and continue to do so, so stay IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP with my blessing, which you have always had, as long as it takes for North America to realise RL is the ultimate sport and embrace it. But I guess you, like others, do not give a stuff for this approach, you just want TWP to go straight to Superleague, because that is your personal self centred choice, and to damnation anyone else. You have no defence, as your supposed to be a grown up, yet you post an indirect apology. childishly excusing your disgusting behaviour. Weasel words my friend... Like most you fail to engage your brain, decide what you personally want to happen and chuck the insults at those who have a right to disagree, when pulled you provide the most insincere apology going........... Apology still accepted as pea-poor as it was. You have always "got it" and you could not be more right as above. We started this conversation three years ago when I recognised what Perez was talking was nonsense. I was right. No TV deal appeared and no players appeared and there is no sign of either now or in ten years time or ever, with no keyboard warrior on here man enough to admit this. But such is the anonymous medium of the internet that no real discussion ever came out of that, just hundreds of posts declaring Parky is an idiot who should be put on ignore whilst "us lads" celebrate a new dawn for Rugby League here thanks to the innovation, foresight, genius, money etc of a couple of chancers..... My concern was the fact that here in the British game we are on a knife edge, struggling for quality players (I was at Headingley last night and saw little quality beyond a couple of Leeds Antipodean players) and are facing a reduced SKY contract and a need to cut to 10 clubs in Superleague as Lenegan set out last January....... So it's fair (in my book anyway) to suggest that as the English game is at such a knife edge, facing.......no real choice at best and oblivion at worst.....that we can't just relegate the Broncos for TWP this year and Relegate Hull.K.R for Ottawa next year.....and relegate Huddersfield for New York the year after that........and in the process send the 60 extra players required from here to North America to fill the Ottawa and NY rosters? The fact is every M62 town that loses it's place to a North American so called "club" will resent this deeply, so much so that decline will set in across the fragile M62, not just because of demotion, but a sense of Superleague selling out to America. Where the dreamer Perez wanted to take this to get to that "North American TV contract", was the likes London, Salford, Wakefield, Huddersfield and HKR all relegated for Boston, NY. TWP, Ottowa and whoever, such, that an NATV deal in the many $Millions would appear. But can anyone seriously believe that such riches will be forthcoming from NATV for a league half comprising of 'small towns in England nobody in NA has ever heard of" Playing a form of rugby alien to a north America that plays exclusively to Rugby Union Rules? It's just not the real word is it Gentlemen? Cue more "Parky is an idiot put him on ignore"...............
  8. No it's not and you know it's not........ No, you two read this.... "Rugby Union is played across Canada, with clubs even in places like Yukon It is most popular in Vancouver and Newfoundland where rugby is considered to be the most popular summer sport.Rugby in British Columbia has had a strong international flavour, and representative BC sides have made tours to Japan and England. Up just after the Second World War, rugby union was very popular on the west coast, and the east coast respectively. Rugby Union has managed to maintain a presence in all parts of Canada. Rugby union in Canada has been experiencing a growing popularity. 20,396 fans came out to BMO Field in Toronto in 2013 to watch Canada take on Ireland, a new attendance record for Canada. Rugby Union in Canada dates back to the 1860s. Introduction of the game and its early growth is usually credited to settlers from Britain and the British army and navy. Canada first broke through into the top rank of rugby nations when it beat Scotland in 1991, followed by an outstanding performance in the 1991 RU world cup in which they beat Romania and Fiji before narrowly losing 19-13 to France in the pool stage then New Zealand in the quarter final. In 1992, they compounded their success by beating Wales. The Canadian national team have competed in every world cup since the first tournament held in 1987". You need to remember what McManus said about TWP. "“A team of English and Antipodeans owned by an Australian in Canada”.This will as you indicate, become painfully apparent if TWP go up and that will be honeymoon over. But when you talk about teams in Canada (plural) you must remember no rich Canadians in three years have come out in person and said how they too would like to follow the TWP business model of throwing away $Millions on a sport Canada don't play, especially when there's a deep history and significant success in their Rugby Union game.
  9. Union in Canada - you pretend nobody knows about RL in Canada yet it dates back the the late 1920's when it had some successes. You pretend that Union and League have not been competing for attention from Canadians for the last 90 years, but your not telling us the fact union managed to kill off league twice. As I say and as you ignore Union have won the battle of the codes in Canada with 324 clubs and 29,000 players..............................................What has League in Canada done in the last 90 years John? Supply of players - "A modest dilution of talent" is your personal spin. Superleague cut from 14 clubs to 12 because of the talent shortage. When Neil Hudgell's HKR were relegated the SL bosses were apalled and to stop this they considered going to 14 again but they could not do this john as the talent pool was reducing. So they had to let HKR be relegated. You talk about "as the league grows" but the fact is it is NOT growing, it has shrunk from 14 to 12 so where do you get this idea the league can just grow - especially and laughably as TWP or any other Canadian club can't develop any players? What TWP do that is appalling is they use Argyles money to take a dozen good players out of Superleague, and make them waste their time and talent in the Championship. What should happen here is the Championship should be salary capped, all the best players need to be in Superleague, and TWP need to re-sign all the NA players they sacked and start looking for more. Re Canada RL Did you ask Bob Jowett when he feels his organisation will be developing SL quality players to stock Canadian clubs? If so please give me Bob's timescale for this?? All you seemed to ask him was was he OK with Mr. Argyle and even if he wasn't he'd be scared to say. Re- Wolfpack boosting attendances in the UK. This is a terrible point as a Wolfpack visit to a Championship club may add a couple of hundred to the crowd, but this has nothing to do with Superleague. I was there when TWP visited Leeds for the play off game. A below average attendance of 11,565 turned up, I saw a few TWP fans and said hello to a couple. Only 6,500 at Warrington for the TWP game when TWP disgraced themselves. I've already done the research into who does boost Championship attendances and last season it was Leigh, Featherstone and Halifax who created all the big home crowds for the championship clubs - which is why your excusing yourself from looking it up........ Now I have answered your points answer mine Perez said he would bring us players pretty quickly with grid iron conversions - where are they? Perez engaged some NA players - what happened to them?? When will TWP actually manage to develop let's say about 6-7 SL quality Canadian players?? Perez said he would bring us TV riches where are they John?? When will we see them??
  10. John I have read all you post, and I note the following:- You talk of how sport is “done” in North America with “top down growth” where a sport is showcased at a high level that then inspires people to play especially where high salaries are on offer. I’m sorry John but the Elephant in the room is North American Rugby Union that has, without any top down presence, and without any big salaries grown to a reported 3,000 clubs and 150,000 registered players. This is the real reason why Rugby League cannot take off in North America because Rugby Union has beaten Rugby League to it. You can see this the world over where Union deliberately takes on any League development wherever it appears to crush it such as Lebanon being an example. You go on to talk about “having no issue with our team being made up of players from other countries”. And “To expect Canadians in a Championship line up now is just not realistic”. But it’s not about you having no issue with importing players or the “realism” of the matter. Superleague has serious issues about NA clubs dragging talent from here to stock your teams. Like it or not Perez didn’t say he’d take our players, he said on behalf of TWP he would provide them from North America. .This was just nonsense, it did not happen and so why shouldn't TWP stand the consequences of this and have their guest invitation revoked. You talk about me being overly focussed on Perez who you say became irrelevant. I am not at all focused on him personally, I am focused on what he promised on behalf of TWP and that was the promise of more players and TV money made on behalf of Argyle and TWP. Not a single red cent in money and what few NA players were delivered were sacked. That was a disgrace. You say “I agree TWP could and should be doing more to develop youth rugby league here in Ontario. I do believe it will happen, but apparently not on the schedule you expect”. As I type this I am losing patience with you as you know darn well Argyle could not be bothered to pay Bob Jowett a few dollars to join Canada RL to get the ball rolling. There is no “schedule” John simple as that. More recently you have tried to claim success through TWP’s alleged crowds that are irrelevant here, leading to the invention of an apparent large TWP UK following.that in your words “have attracted larger crowds (often record crowds) almost everywhere they have played in the UK”. I have the records and this is plain nonsense John, your making it all up…. No it could not. Superleague (Europe) has no contract at all with TWP, the two entities have never met, never sat down and discussed anything nor signed any agreement Invited by the RFL and NOT Superleague. Be careful about talking "repetition" I only repeat the facts because people repeat the nonsenses about what TWP supposedly bring to the game none of which are what they actually promised to blag their way in. Since they've been found out big time but as above people conveniently forget the criteria for success and invent their own, then they repeat that nonsense daily. TWP the glamour club that is showing the RL world how to market the game properly, how to open eyeballs across the world etc etc etc when all it is is a rich mans massive loss making plaything....... Discuss?
  11. You know full well those "two points" were the reason for supporting the American dream and they were Perez's points he made to justify that dream in terms of exactly what he offered and meant by expansion. 1. More Pro players 2. More TV money. There I have said it again and I estimate I have now said it 1,000 times exactly. I also estimate about 20 posters on here are strongly in favour of the American dream continuing despite Perez and Argyle failing to deliver one NA player (notwithstanding they sacked a few) nor one TV dollar. I logically don't see either for years to come if ever because there is no player development system in NA, and big NATV companies want a big NA content they will not get - so why should they part with $$Millions?. Now I have asked the 20 of you 1,000 times to admit these two pillars of expansion have not been achieved and probably never will and the 20 of you refuse to admit it by ignoring the question. OK it's tiresome asking something 1,000 times, but you guys are far more tiresome ignoring the fact it's all a failure 20,000 times. It's some sort of mass denial?? So go on John...admit it TWP did not achieve their stated goals?? Everyone's entitled to an opinion your good self included. However SL bosses have through Eamon McManus publicly said they will likely block Toronto for Toulouse. In the RL press Danny Lockwood editor of League weekly also stated SL bosses are working on their "excuses" now, to block TWP from Superleague. I think these are the sort of people you should take seriously? I concede your point entirely, I just felt that maybe I could find a way to be a little more praiseworthy of Perez who after all is a Rugby league fanatic and really does devote himself to the game (albeit his ambitions are not conducive to harmony between NA & Europe) . If the decision on TWP is "YES" then of course the Transatlantic league is on and we can look forward to more squads of English players being sent to America (well Manchester) and English pro-clubs here going semi-pro to make way. If the decision is "NO" then I fear not an end to the American dream as such as it never started, but several more years of recriminations against the Superleague bosses who will be blamed for killing what is supposedly a fantastic opportunity for RL to break out of the M62 and follow a "world vision" according to Danny Lockwood Editor of League weekly. I love this game and would concede the demise of the M62 if it meant the rise of RL across countries and continents in the northern Hemisphere, but whether it is internet trolls who call me an idiot and urge others to put me on ignore, or a well travelled business minded Rugby League playing nut like Mr. Lockwood who condemns those who see no point in TWP........... None of them want to allay my fears by actually explaining how going Transatlantic will actually work if there's nothing of substance on offer in North America? Please someone, help me understand this?
  12. I have legitimate concerns about Toronto shared by very many people, and it's fair enough to air them. I noted in League Weekly yesterday Danny Lockwood declared the future as being a "World Vision" and he predicted that the SL bosses would find reasons to reject TWP if they won promotion, and simply protect their own ever shrinking competition in which they play each other five times. That's a view I've heard hundreds of times, but even the Editor of a major RL newspaper was unable to set out how his "World Vision" would actually work. Right from the start someone suggested I just wanted to keep RL for the M62 and a part of me did, but I conceded that if North America offered growth and expansion I had to just suck it up. But the thing is Robert so far the American dream hasn't offered anything substantial at all and it's progression appears to be a very slow substitution of North American clubs taking 30 players from here every other year and replacing English clubs one by one. But this way the point comes when more and more English RL people get fed up with this and SKY pull the plug as they need English content? Discuss with me Robert how you think it will actually work. Enlighten me my friend??. I never stated that, it was TWP's business plan on which they were admitted to the RFL - Perez stated it. As for Canadian players "soon" even on here the general concensus is well over a decade if they ever start any development. As for TV deals again Perez stated he needed 5-6 NA clubs in SL to achieve that, That would take well over a decade BUT SL can't let anymore than three overseas clubs in or SKY will pull the plug. If you want a conversation stick to the facts please, and actually deal with them. I disagree. I do not see Ottawa as following on from TWP in some sort of joined up plan. For me Argyle just wanted to buy an English team and run it in Superleague because he had loads of money. For me Perez didn't like this and left vowing to develop players at Ottawa "As long as it takes" and fair play to him, credit where it is due. All the trolling I get tries to say I do not like the idea of American expansion. Totally untrue. I hate the idea of phoney North American teams replacing proper English clubs in Superleague. As it stands Argyle has this plan to just put 30 of the best RL players from here he can buy in a Canadian Jersey and pretend that's expansion. As per my first comments I'd like such as Danny Lockwood to tell me how this is in any way a plan or expansion. At times on here when the silly dreams and insults are not clouding the issue I have repeatedly suggested that the Championship is the perfect place to develop an NA club into something substantial, something beyond a rich mans plaything to be created and dropped on a whim. The Championship have already said they would welcome TWP, Ottawa and New York in it and there gentlemen we have the solution. As I said two years ago, NA should grow their clubs and grow their game in the Championship. In a short time we could see TWP, Ottawa and NY all playing each other, and seeking to grow the game enough to indeed look at a Transatlantic League. But all the threads I have done on growing America in the Championship had people's approval but not their enthusiasm, because the fact seems to be whether it's Argyle or wether it's 20 TWP fans on here, they (with respect) want Superleague NOW and don't really care about grass roots development or the preservation of the game here. That's the reality......... Time will tell. If TWP were rejected would Argyle stick about or flounce off declaring Superleague are parochial and "don't want expansion" like Mr. Lockwood appears to think??
  13. What you did was set your own agenda for me to discuss with you. My "experience" therefore stood me in good stead not to fall for this cheap trick, that's been played for three years now where everything about TWP is on the table to discuss apart from the two things that really counted, and that was TWP delivering additional pro players to our shrinking player pool, and TWP adding enough TV money to be able to share a significant sum each to their fellow Superleague clubs. Like so many on here you haven't met me at all on these issues which are the only real issues that count in the debate. But now you've found a way to duck out you won't have to face the realities that TWP have not even set up any system to develop players and TWP admitted they can't get a big NATV deal without there being 5-6 NA clubs in Superleague - and that cannot happen without us abandoning SKY who must have a majority English club content. Don't switch the debate to me because you can't discuss the realities. I was taught to be open and honest with people and be prepared to admit when I was wrong and when others were right. Like so many on here who know TWP have produced no players and set up no mechanism for it, and who are unable to ever get a big NATV deal because SL can't progressively go Transatlantic without losing SKY you want to argue any other old thing with me and not the actual point of TWP. The last time you started arguing I should be disciplined for some sort of breach of board rules. Now I should accept an apology? It's just not the point is it? Yet again you switch the point because you can't discuss the realities. NO players. No TV deal TWP failed............................. Anyway next up is Fighting Irish's and Loup's idea that TWP are building a massive English fanbase which will follow TWP around the English grounds filling their coffers so heavily TWP will get into Superleague on that basis. I'm afraid last season Leigh, Fax and Featherstone were the real drawcards when it came to attracting big crowds to Championship games, you see I looked up the facts, but this is another example of where people are realising TWP offer nothing to the game here so they keep inventing stuff - last week it was "Eyeballs" this week it's TWP's ever burgeoning army of English fans......
  14. Yes I was and I took the caution. I was cautioned because someone complained directly. Please look back and note all the vile abuse I get regularly over three years now. and hardly a single person has ever specifically being cautioned for an attack directly on myself. This is because I personally choose not to complain. I leave the mods alone as they have a tough job and a newspaper to get out every week. I take solace that when bans are asked for and insults thrown, as a substitute for reason and fact, then it's clear I'm winning the debate. I don't accept your apology, your not alone in thinking an argument is won by locking away people who hold a fair alternative view. Think carefully about it please, throwaway apologies are cheap and easy............. None of the current posts that are based on the tactic of just disagreeing with all I say are well constructed. The Reaper has latched onto the idea TWP have a five year agreement to compete in the RFL. The idea is they cannot be judged until the five years is up because it could be in year four and three quarters that Toronto Wolfpack finally sign a monster TV deal that gives them several $Million dollars a year to be screened, and also provides $Millions more to their opponents to share - one of the two actual aims of the TWP project that would qualify as "success". The second idea is that although the fourth of five years of the agreement will be with us in a few months, again TWP cannot be judged now on the issue of player production. Whilst the general consensus is that not a single Canadian SL quality player will ever roll off what is a non-existent conveyor belt even in 15 years time we cannot judge them on this second actual criteria for judging the success of the TWP project yet. They may just have a second go at Grid Iron conversions, they may sign a load of Canada RU players or both in the next two years and finally have that Superleague quality home grown side by the end of year five. In practice, as opposed to theory, the argument is not well constructed unless you believe both developments are possible in the short time frame. DO YOU? I have no comment on that, more importantly what I would say is that if TWP have a five year participation agreement with the RFL then let them have that five years. Indeed let them have a 25 years participation agreement with the RFL so they can have the kind of time they need to work with Ottawa and New York and Boston to find more players and TV money. Because without expanding those two things as even Perez was clear about, we cannot expand the game can we my friend?? Think carefully before you get back on the fence. The participation agreement TWP have with the RFL is nothing to do with Superleague is it? It's Reapers red herring. There is no such agreement with Superleague, which is why McManus was not breaking any agreement by warning TWP that in Superleagues judgement they do not meet Superleague Criteria. Man of Kent perhaps floated this idea Reaper latched onto but he was mistaken that such a participation agreement included a right to participate in Superleague.
  15. I am not here to convince you, we beg to differ. I still do not think the word stupid should have been in any way associated with the games administrators no matter how loosely given the problems about TWP’s entry to SL are of Mr. Argyle’s making. Argyle can if he wants help them by confirming if TWP win the play off, he will run reserves, pay for all travel, and play games home (in Canada) and away over the full season. He could also join and support Canada RL for a few "bucks". I have set out all the club chairmen’s articles as they appear in League Weekly and League Express over the years and these are not "Odd interviews in isolation" , you've put that spin on them to make an unbelievable argument that they are not relevant. Ever since the top chairmen fell out with the RFL back in 2014 the modus operandi across Messrs Hudgell, Pearson, Mcmanus, Moran, Davey and Lenegan who are the main players, for a number of years now, has been to take it in turns to publicise Superleague’s position on these and other matters. Never once has a fellow top chairman disagreed with another's press release as regard Superleague albeit Marwan Koukash who they suffered during his tenure with Salford called publicly to break entirely from the RFL (he was slapped down). Whatever you have seen Elstone say he is a new appointment and he is their servant and they clearly go above him as McManus did when in League weekly he made it clear to Denise Brady, that there was a” huge difference” between a team from France and a team from North America entering the competition (as guests). TO were heavily favoured with several reasons given, TWP were not, especially as regards player production, and an inability to play at home until Easter. If you do not buy these RL papers then you won’t pick up on far and away the most relevant relevant material going that is published about Superleague's views on the future of their competition. How can you construct a valid argument about this so called expansion, and Superleague's position on it if you don't read what they say? then just dismiss it when I relay it to you?. If you choose to start buying and reading one of these fine RL newspapers, I suggest League Express as it provides much needed revenue to our hosts on here who allow us in for free. I’ve bought this since it was the Rugby Leaguer, in 1968. I think we should support our hosts by making such a modest purchase, I think we should read up what those in charge of the game are actually saying which would make for a more informed debate. Why? It's a debate site, and more than that I buy all the publications of the good people who run the site so maybe I'm entitled to a say a bit more than others?. You and others seem to take the view that censorship is a great thing. Right from the start several who thought the American dream was the future and the old village clubs the past, came up with the idea that the debate could be won if people would just put me and my views on ignore. You can see it on this thread where when I challenge the idea of "Eyeballs" being a great reason for TWP to be hailed as the future of Rugby League in the Northern Hemishere. Two childish posts appeared announcing gleefully that I was to be ignored? One poster (they know who they are) came on here and openly said I should be banned! If I had some weird ideas that were pie in the SKY and would never work, and pedalled them daily then maybe there would be a time to "give it a rest"............ But I don't........I only hold the simple view that TWP isn't working, it's a massive loss maker, there's no player development, it's highly inconvenient to clubs here, it brings no added TV revenue, and every phoney NA club promotion comes with a real English club demotion. A transatlantic league would kill the game here - care to discuss???? The "value" was to be a large influx of North American Professional RL players into the game, and once Superleague was Transatlantic - half NA half M62 - then the mother of all TV deals was to be negotiated with a North American Broadcaster and of course that would be that for SKY. It's a nonsense to pretend SKY are so enthusiastic, when the plan was to remove them. But clearly there are no players or paying TV contracts so something else has to be made up to keep the dream going. But it's a destructive dream that relegates more of our bigger clubs to follow Bulls and Widnes into the part time wilderness. I can't imagine if the only professional clubs left here were Leeds, Hull, Saints, Wire and Wigan hopping over to North America every other week to play TWP, NY, Boston Ottawa etc fielding English players taken from relegated English clubs would really be "expansion"? Are you really really committed to that?
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