The Parksider

I take a 100% financial approach usually because of wishful thinking posts in which the money is completely glossed over allowing the view to be formed the forthcoming proposals will be just what the game always needed. You ask me "Is that a bad thing? Allowing clubs to find their level". I don't think it is to a point Dave. I think it makes good sense to find your level. I would guess that if the lower SL clubs who generally have to borrow at least half a £million a year, stop overspending and racking up debt then we can have them find their level and reduce debt. I just fear that Clubs like Cas, Wakefield, HKR, Widnes, Bradford, in cutting their salary spend to say £1,000,000 may find that if their average crowds decline if they are cut early from SL every year, and asked to play with the championship that spend may have to go down again in a spiral of decline. How fans will react to seeing their clubs downsize is what I worry about. Fans want elite RL not annual second rate stuff. You ask me about wether in "downsizing", clubs could "maybe grow again, as you could argue Fev have done". I think IMVHO your use of the word "Maybe" was very canny. I see no growth at all in the second tier, quite the opposite - a heavy decline 1996-2013. This is why I am concerned that if fans feel the middle 8 is a cut price "SL2" with clubs who can't compete with Superleague clubs they may not respond in the numbers KPMG predict with no evidence at all. As for Featherstone's growth I see none. I remember Mark Campbell talking about a £100,000 he'd once put in, I remember Nahaboo putting in £100,000 and I remember Nahaboo pledging "Full cap if we get in Superleague". This isn't growth- it's the rack up a debt with a rich man policy. Far from growing Fev have simply resisted decline through private gifts. For me an 8 club SL will be a recipe for staleness at a level we cannot afford, in which Leeds, Wigan, Saints and wire mop up the trophies for another 10 years. You yourself advocate a cut in SL numbers. I think we can find 10 clubs who can all compete at the highest level, but it won't happen by leaving it all to chance.

I found his opinion interesting but he didn't enlarge on it. Castleford used to compete for trophies but in the Superleague age Cas have had two relegations. Nahaboo was going to revitalise them but left for a smaller rival. Glasshoughton was going to be the saviour of the club but that now seems a pipe dream. I think they are left going through the motions because their Chairman has said no more from him, apparently other directors have put in and may want that back if they go down (according to Mr. Sadler) in which case there may be no club. Steve Ferres also came out to explain wear, tear, age and vandalism was making the ground a millstone around their neck and was costing a fortune. IIRC he actually said the club could not compete because the ground could not accomodate the income streams they needed. Their crowds have dropped off a bit anyway so more gloom there. IIRC they had an appalling crowd for the Huddersfield game last year. Then there's the question of them being a selling club. OK years ago they sold star players to Hull FC for their early eighties revival. Now they don't just sell stars, they sell their best young lads before they even get established in the side. My view is the bloke is probably well fed up and bored with it all, but my question of him would be would getting relegated again cheer him up? Would this rejuvinate crowds at Wheldon Road because I really don't think so....... Maybe he's smart enough to realise that 2x12=3x8 actually allows Cas a get out. They can drop a level, cut down the costs, and enjoy some tussles with Fev Sheffield, Halifax and Wakey. IMVHO 2x12=2x8 isn't about anything other than allowing struggling SL clubs to cut costs and buy time whilst the rich men come. The trick to keeping this guys interest will be to ensure Cas are in the 4 that go back up every year. The minute they slip up (maybe to Fev) and lose their full SKY funding could be a disaster.

1. Indeed 2. Thanks for your very interesting views will get back to you sir...

Thanks for explaining that, I get it. The question remains wether the second tier play off games will attract the fans.

I agree with that. So if the debt in Superleague was £68,000,000 amongst the bottom say 8 SL clubs then none of them should be operating a full time professional squad, but slashing wage bills. Equally if the top two championship clubs cannot afford to run a full time professional squad then they should stay part time. I'm happy the idea that only clubs who can afford to "run a full time professional squad" do so. Where we differ is you count 20 of them and I can't get past about 8.....

Sorry Dave, I'm not trying to be obtuse at all. I'm discussing the fine detail and asking for general opinion. My worry is that as the Rugby league season get's into the final stages we will finish the league season early and all that will be forgotten, to change to another "late" league season and have four clear divisions with league tables?. There's the eight club elite........... And there's a league below that with four relegated SL clubs in it who have had a bad season. the idea is people will look at that and flock to games.

I Still cannot get my head around it Craiq. We've operate 14 full time professional clubs and the result is the game goes into debt to the tune of £68,000,000 and rising. We then twiddle the structure around and hey presto we can now run 16 professional clubs? How does that work?

So after the season is two thirds of the way through, how would the newspapers report the Superleague table? Would they report the 23 game league as over? Are the Superleague clubs playing "off" initially for points in a new eight club seven fixture table?? Who goes to Old trafford? Top two clubs in the 8 club table?? At that point do we have 4 tables? Superleague Superleague/Championship and championship - and do we then have championship 1, or is it Superleague, Championship, championship one and championship two in which case the top division is the eight? Serious question here, just how would it work/look anyone??

Mr. Sadler suggests "The proposal will see full time squads against part time squads in the middle tier of eight. It will be amazing if we see any genuine movement of clubs in those circumstances". I don't see anyone fighting for their life, I see a structural change that creates a new 8 club Championship and ejects all the dual registration 600 crowd clubs to a third tier. Sure there may be a club that manages to make the top four (Fev) and get in the Superleague for the opening part of the consequent Superleague season, but will they then make the top 8? I think not. Many say that P & R is needed to refresh the top division. That is the top eight and given HKR were bottom of that and Bradford top last year of the next 6 that principle will apply. Clubs will be able to gain year on year promotion to the eight club Superleague and maybe stay there. It's just that this principle will mainly apply to existing SL clubs refreshing the new eight club SL. 2x12=2x8 will not IMVHO enable existing championship clubs any real permanent access to Superleague, it will however keep the wolf from the door

I agree, to remove 2 SL clubs this coming season and another four SL clubs in a year and a half to play outside of the Elite could not be more "anticlimatic" but apparently attendances will go through the roof and all RL clubs across the land will "grow". No evidence at all for any of that, so the question remains posed "I still honestly don't see why the RFL are pushing so hard for 3x8". If one can't see the answer amongst all the press releases and joyous up front opinions amongst the P & R brigade then maybe something is going on in the background? Again SL is in debt by tens of £Millions, again most owners of clubs in the bottom half of SL do not want to be cash cows and are complaining about the glass ceiling that wastes their money and licensing that demands they spend more than just "on the first team". The Championship isn't as widely reported but we have seen a season of crowds dropping at Fax, Leigh and Sheffield as their fixtures are reduced to mainly games against SL "A" teams, ruining the integrity of the competition I think Aston was reported as saying in strong terms. But the real Superleague clubs offer little compromise if any. So what fits keeping the top SL clubs happy, whilst allowing the Bottom SL clubs to spend less and be happy, whilst rescuing Sheffield Halifax and Fev from games against fast fading clubs reduced to being dependant on SL dual reg so they are happy??? Probably 2x12 = 2x8 (who does care for anything beyond that?) is Nigel Wood's key to keeping the 18 most important clubs happy and his job intact

That's bang on the money IMVHO. But I don't think it's because as SSL suggests tongue in cheek it's in Mr. Sadler's personal interests. He has set out how hard it is for a club to jump the £multi- million gap between CC and SL in just one year, and how damaging it is to any club that either drops straight back down after promotion or drops out after several seasons. He quoted Cas as in danger of going out of business as would Salford have done, as may London. What he has said many times is IMVHO absolutely spot on but is totally ignored by the other side of this debate that claims P & R will grow the game and grow it's attendances. Someone is not living in the real world, but as they say sport is about dreams...... Mr. Sadlers plan applied to 2009-2011 would have seen Barrow, Halifax and Fev play off to see who goes up, and Crusaders Catalans and Crusaders again play off to see who goes down. How exciting that would have been I dunno. Cats would not have got to play Crusaders because by 2011 they had collapsed. Equally by 2011 Barrow were bottom of CC and heading for CC1. What an odd play off series that would have been?? Mr. Sadlers plan applied to 20012-2014 would probably see Sheffield, Sheffield and maybe even Sheffield again play off to see who goes up, and Salford, Widnes and probably London play off to see who goes down. maybe this would have worked with a club with no money, no decent ground, and no fans replacing a club with no money, no decent ground and no fans. Another embarrassing oddity?? Is this really the solution?

Nope - doesn't work for me that. Unless your headline is:- "P & R will expand new markets in the game, and expand former markets by changing the participants of Superleague" There's never anything behind these empty headlines. Nobody has to explain their theories of course, but again I'd like to know how changing Leeds, Wigan, Hull, Catalans, Warrington and Saints for say Oxford Gloucester, Sheffield, Keighley, Leigh and Featherstone will expand the market for the game.......Without destroying the market and infrastructure of the big clubs for a massive nett loss? Any takers or is that it for the debate now? Anyhow today Martyn Sadler would like a system of P & R in which over 3 years you have to win the grand final and then all the GF winners play off for the three yearly SL place whilst all the SL losers over the three years play off to avoid the relegation place. Simple, easy for the fans to understand and fair (??), after all it can relegate a club with money and replace it with a club without money, trapping that latter club to a possible disasterous three year stint - a la London Broncos. The sight of poor Broncos having to stitch together a "club" just to see the 3 years out one would have thought would be proof enough this sort of thing is no good. Still clubs could refuse promotion in which if that happened we'd go six years with nothing. The massive financial gap between the Elite and the rest prevents any results based system working for me.

Not sure what you are saying here, what is the "different business model" and how exactly does it work?

Might help if you check out the clubs academy rating here, and the reasons why Huddersfield a top club in SL may be one of the first to be refused RFL backing for their academy.

Widnes’s games against Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds on promotion averaged 7,261 Games against Salford Hull and Huddersfield averaged 4,901 Widnes built attendances on a core support of 3744. Widnes’s attendances were on average improved by 61% If Leigh were to be promoted now on an “ageing” core fanbase of 1,556 then a 61% increase would give them 2,505. I think they would get more than this, but only if they actually competed. Check out the 3,178 Salford crowds last year when the club won 6 Superleague games. Widnes, Leigh and Salford all have modern stadia. Hope this helps....

I think we can say that of Widnes, so would you like to compare your forecasts with the reality of Widnes's crowd performance?? Widnes are a bit bigger better supported club, but it's a half decent comparison?

Because it can be hard to discuss a clubs problems without people thinking one has it in for them, but I should have known better as far as your concerned, apologies......

In the end Huddersfield had to go in 2001, after coming bottom of Superleague for the fourth consecutive time flatlining on 3,000+ crowds. They had a largely "bought in" their team with plenty of Aussies, but no real junior development system. They became a "Championship club" but they had the trump card of a very rich "Investor". What did this man invest in?? Ten years on do we see 15,000 crowds in Huddersfield? Do we see a production line of talent for the game from a well funded and well staffed academy?? Does the game not need to produce numbers of quality home grown players so we can have a good International side? Does it no need to attract numbers of fans so we can fill stadiums for our showpiece club and international events? This money isn't investment, it's self aggrandisment. What was the first thing Mr. Koukash invested in? Development officers for Manchester/Salford?? Reopening the Salford academy and staffing it with the best?? Maybe, but that may be real investment. If I invest £Millions into Hunslet will that increase player production and fan generation in Leeds, or will every pound I put in be a blow to Leeds and muck up their fantastic solid progress?? Had Neil Hudgell put £500K a year into Hull.F.C. where may they be now?? Throwing millions at small clubs isn't "Investment" and when you work it through it can undo a lot of real investment and hard work, and be very damaging to the game.

Whether a club is a Superleague side or a Championship side is not the point is it? Your still trying to pick teams, draw boundaries, and then state how unfair it all is on your "team" rather than focus on the actual realities. There are SL sides who were Championship sides and Championship sides who were SL sides, they are all RFL members and they are all in the same game of trying to improve their playing rosters and attract the fans. Lets say Leigh have found £2,000,000 a year for a few years. That then puts them into the Featherstone Salford and Huddersfield bracket. They will have the money to spend full salary cap like Huddersfield found 10 or more years ago. It doesn't then make them an instant pick for the top division, they have to get in the queue behind clubs who not only can spend full cap, but can successfully promote local amateur RL, develop professional players from that amateur game and attract 10-15,000 fans to the game. In your world you seem to dream (dreams are fair enough) of Leigh replacing Wigan, York replacing Hull, Keighley replace Bradford, Sheffield replace Leeds, Swinton replace Saints, Rochdale replace Warrington all because they have someone prepared to just bankroll all the massive losses these clubs will have playing in Superleague. The game will be £200,000,000 in debt and rising, tens of thousands less fans will be watching the game because their clubs have been relegated, whilst new fans won't number the same (see Huddersfield/ Bradford), interest in the amateur game will decline in the big centers of amateur RL, but it won't be replaced by equivalent growth in the small towns. I think our game has to try to be something more than one great big charity case?

We've been this way before as with everything. As Shirley Bassey sang history is repeating itself. Rugby League is entertainment pure and simple and the audience want top entertainment. So for Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal read Leeds, Warrington, Saints, Wigan...... Sure, SKY are happy in their press release to welcome "jeapordy" and to look forward to showcasing the fantastic relegation tussles... 1996 Workington.v.Paris 2000 fans 1997 Oldham 0 Bradford 68 1998 Huddersfield won 2 games and stayed up 1999 Huddersfield still there 2000 Huddersfield still won't go. Teamed up with Sheffield to avoid relegation 2001 Huddersfield still there but Hunslet and Dewsbury too skint and small to go up. 2002 Salford.v.Wakefield stunning draw before 3,000 fans 2003 Halifax win first game lose the rest then lose the points for the first game. Damp squib. 2004 After NINE years we finally get our first TV Relegation stunner. Widnes 6 Cas 7, 7,000 crowd. 2005 Oh no.....Leigh down early on.....no TV relegation battles AGAIN 2006 Cas at Wakey 11,000 crowd TV stunner.................. I'll stop there. After that I recall HKR fans swamping the Willows for a crucial game - 7,000 fans. The reality is on the past record SKY will showcase the big clubs not the failing clubs who will only throw up the odd big game.......

Would you like me to quantify the actual numerical level of support for P & R on this thread? I would guess it's about 25 people.... I would guess the 100,000 people who support big SL clubs don't give a brass farthing for P & R.... I would guess the 12,000 fans of 18 championship clubs who will never be Superleague clubs also don't give a "monkeys" for P & R...... I would guess that many pragmatic fans amongst the few Championship clubs with a chance of promotion that may not end in total disaster will also be ambivolent? I can try my best to statistically gauge the groundswell of support for P & R evidenced on this thread but at this point in time I make it (as an estimate only) 1%..... The league leaders want P & R to ensure the Superleague doesn't collapse by forcing clubs to carry on under the glass ceiling, which their chairmen will not do. I don't think you are receptive to this point, it is important though. Four clubs want P & R so that their decline is arrested for a season or two until they get promotion and are found out.

I always enjoy your posts, 12 clubs "could be" the way forward. Spot on the adding of "could". If not we may be down to ten, but as you say Superleague as the TV face of RL has to be "the best" it should therefore not be "jeapordised" and IMVHO as yours the vast majority pay for SKY to see the Elite. One fascinating thing I will be looking for if we get 2x12=3x8 is just how many second tier "8" matches will be put on SKY given there will be elite games available to show at the same time??

Only a matter of time before a Halifax fan took offence. HALIFAX - business plan "Inadequate" "speculative" "insufficient" "below standard" WAKEFIELD - "financial governance poor" BRADFORD - "faces challenges" SALFORD - "ambitious targets" None of the three clubs you mention had "robust plans" at all. Wakey had gone bust, Bradford had Odsal as a millstone around their neck and Salford were only admitted because the RFL gave them a chance as they had built a new ground. With deepest respect petty jealousies don't advance the argument and the argument IMVHO is that when they tried to select the best 14 Superleague clubs for this round of licensing there were only four real Superleague clubs. The rest were inadequate some more than others. Bradford collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,500 crowd Wakefield Collapsed in SL and ended up with an 8,172 crowd Salford fell apart in SL and ended up with an 3,178 crowd Halifax bombed in SL and ended up with a 2,977 crowd. It just does not follow that a Superleague clubs failure to compete with clubs on a £6,000,000 turnover makes them more useless than clubs who can't even manage a £600K turnover.

There was no fiddle as far as I am concerned. Widnes had a rich man waving literally hundreds of thousands of real pounds at the RFL/SLE whilst all Halifax offered was a possibility of money on paper if their fanciful plans worked out...........

Firstly what you may have found at Leeds is that there's nothing "Vital" about most of the games at Headingley. As long as the team is winning enough games to be in the mix, the club isn't that bothered because the season starts in July when you have to try to up your game, get into form "at the right time of the season" (something Nobby taught Mac) then the real "vital" business starts. I don't view RL games as "meaningless" in an attempt to justify P & R and I don't think you should fall for that. The records and the facts are clear, failure and second tier RL is "meaningless" to people. When we know who will win the trophies then it renders most games meaningless but somehow tens of thousands of fans turn out for "meaningless". All spectator sport is entertainment . I think the reality is people want big games, close games and a good positive night out watching top class players in front of great crowds. If they didn't them why do they buy so many season tickets for it. I am aware of the repetitivenss of fixtures we have if we have too few teams, but the solution to a hitch in a good plan is not to abandon the plan but to sort it. The first thing I'd look at is abandoning Millenium and saving all the costs of that, and putting on three double header league games. Hull.v.Wakefield, Leeds.v.Bradford at Elland Road with a seven comp? Saints.v.Wigan, Warrington.v.Widnes at a big Lancashire soccer ground?? Toulouse.v.Les Catalans in wherever?? This could up the profits on league games, create showcase games, and cut out one of the third fixtures. Then again we could bring back P & R.