keighley
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Posts posted by keighley
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1. An extra £20M of TV money Craiq?
2. What will achieve it then given we aren't going to get any more TV money??
Hey we may do if we had a Superleague of strong clubs that was competitive across the piece?
What's your viable alternative?
Gooday Mr Negativity. Why arn't we going to get any more TV money ? The profile of the game was enhanced massively by the World Cup and I bet Sky now regard it as a mistake that they weren't involved. The profile of the game played at a high level before massive crowds attracting high viewer figures must have resonated with some TV executives somewhere. A revitalised SL with p and r, dumping a failure or two and bringing in ambitious, successful and well financed newcomers might just spark a renaissance and get the game a bigger TV deal.
The BBC must be very happy with the viewing figures for their WC coverage. Sky must have taken note.
There is competition in the market place. BT are now players, the French networks and Toulouse are supposed to bring a TV contract with them. Sky lost some soccer coverage. we should move to fill that blank.
I say we could do worse than to appoint Sally Bolton head of TV contract negotiations and let her see what we can get from the networks and cable outlets before she is headhunted to other ventures.
In any event , I don't think it's a given that any future TV deals won't increase or add to our TV revenue.
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Saved for future reference
Its the recession that has reduced crowds not SL
Thanks, you've made my day.
To quote yourself "yeah, whatever"
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Yeah. right, whatever.
Or Winston Churchill in 1945.
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Well this is the BIG question. Will dropping out of superleague because your not good enough and playing extra fixtures against the same losers as you, and four second tier clubs really get your fans cheering.
To assume more fans will turn up for games outside Superleague flies in the face of the figures??
Castleford dropped out of Superleague losing most of their games and came back winning most of their games. The crowds were 2,000 down for the winning side
And the difference probably was the fans of Leeds, Wigan, Saints, warrington et al who were not attending games in Castleford. I think the Castleford support held up quite well both times they were relegated.
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Castleford's crowds have dropped from 7,500 to 6,300 since 2009.
Castlefords worst crowd came last year .v.Fartown 3,222.
I call these figures a drop. Fans don't want to watch a selling club.
Castleford's crowds have dropped from 7,500 to 6,300 since 2009.
Castlefords worst crowd came last year .v.Fartown 3,222.
I call these figures a drop. Fans don't want to watch a selling club.
I have one word for you' "recession".
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Not sure we should operate Superleague based on so many "may's".
All Featherstone offer is the promise of a rich man. If they replaced Bradford the game would lose several thousand paying fans to a rich man's debt.
It's a business no brainer.
But it's Ok to lose tens of thousands of fans to facilitate your merger mania
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The Caine report 40 years ago said what needed to happen as did Framing the Future,
The lack of will to change is slowly killing this game, tails do not wag dogs.
Tell that to the king of France at the time of the revolution.
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Spot on IMO.
John Wilkin among other RL players has been saying this publically for some time and yet the RFL continue along the path of structural change rather than income generation.
Why are the two mutually exclusive. Can't we have both at the same time ?
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Which do you want? The random, ramshackle world of Superleague as a business being propped up by fly by night one minute I am "investing £Millions" to the next minute "I am standing down" rich men who are so rich the game is £68M in debt, and every assett we have is in hoc to these people?
Or a proper SL business based on sound business principles?
Try to look at the realities of the rich men. Those at the top of SL who have indeed achieved self sustainability but do not want to put any more in now. Those at the bottom of SL who don't want to put in any more because they are at the bottom and face a glass ceiling. The one who throws £Millions at his club but hasn't had a crowd or a trophy in 12 years? The one who wants to buy the best 25 players in the world and wants to be bigger than Wigan in the 1990's?
Isn't it time to say "enough" to these people who are dragging the game down? Or do we have to keep calling for them until Leigh, Fax, Fev, Sheffield and keighley have one, which will happen on the twelfth of never?
I certainly don't want to lose these guys. The game is in a beggars can't be chosers situation. I would prefer the whole league to be one of self sustaining profitable businesses but until then, it is what it is.
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Why?
You can call a club what you like and for any number of reasons
There's no such place as wasps, Saracens, or battleships: for their own reasons
Grimsby town play in cleethorpes, Patrick thistle play in Maryhill for their own reasons
Catalan dragons aren't called perpignan for their own reasons
There used to be a rugby league team called unos dabs...no such place
Open your mind old cock. It's never too late
I've never met anybody who can lose the plot as well as you. old cock.
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Bit mean spirited that Mr. K??
You got it spectacularly wrong with Perpignan/Catalans. The idea of one SL club basing itself in a sizeable place but catering to a wider audience to get the maximum fans/sponsors/players etc is sound.
The "Catalans" area crosses into Spain where Les Catalans attracted an 18,000 crowd in Barcelona for their home tie with Warrington. Remember that?
OK the mountains are in the way, but not so at Wigan who can attract fans from a wide area. During Salford's poor performances anecdotal evidence is such that fans would get on the train in Manchester, get in cars in Oldham, and travel down the M6 from north Lancashire, Chorley, Preston, etc to support the Wigan club.
It doesn't matter what the club is called. Everton attract fans from all over North Wales, and that matters. They do not have to be called North Wales Crusaders.
If we want to attract the maximum number of fans, fans need maximum access to attractive clubs.
You are losing the plot here, Parky, my old sparring partner. The point being made Padge is that Catalans are named that to appeal to the greater catalan area rather than Perpignan itself. So, if all these people journey from all over Lancashire and beyond to watch a team named after a small town named Wigan, it suggests that the same thing would happen in Catalonia even if the team were named Perpignan Dragons
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Why not, if it works go for it.
Catalan aren't called Perpignan for a reason !!!
Probably so as not to be confused with the big RU team in the area who do sport the Perpignan name in their title.
Seriously, I do understand the Catalan regional appeal idea but I don't know if it's such a draw as you suggest. There used to be a major league baseball team in the los Angeles area who were called the California Angels but no body from Northern or Southern California followed them. Their market was and is the greater los Angeles conurbation. Today they have dropped the California tag and have Los Angeles in their name.
The Florida Marlins have the same problem. Only people from Miami watch them.
A little nearer to home the London tag has had little success for the Broncos. They had much more success when they were Fulham.
The Skolars might have more local appeal if they were the Tottenham Cockneys or some such.
Do you think any team in the Rhubarb triangle rebranded as Calder or even the Yorkshire Wanderers thousands of extra fans would flock to their games.
Depending on future political developments, Catalan as a name would be better off being reserved for a national team entering World Cups as Catalonia whilst the rest of France compered as France.
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+You're completely misinterpreting what I am saying, and the using false analogies involving political systems and soccer.
The business that is fighting for survival is professional Rugby league. Let's at least establish that. It's a professional Rugby League also known as "superleague" which underpins the whole game because it attracts a £17,000,000 annual TV contract the game relies VERY heavily on. Look at the nameplate on the office door. I saw it 10 years ago and it says "Superleague Europe Limited" on it.
Look at the value of that TV contract. It wouldn't buy a single player from Manchester United or Chelsea's team. These are not "successful capitalist businesses" at all. These clubs expenditures heavily exceed their incomes. They are the biggest financial failures you will find in the whole country. They only get away with it because their owners are £Billionaires, never mind £Millionaires.
Yes Superleague needs more income I agree and less expenditure. No plan is guaranteed success but ten top clubs (less expenditure, more SKY money each) playing each other (bigger crowds), in ten seperate areas (bigger crowds), working to tight budgetary controls, with mechanisms to prevent any club from collapsing is well worth investigation not dismissing on false analogies.
It's worth investigating if contraction is thought to be progress.
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St. Helens and Wigan two of the games biggest clubs add to the eight to make a ten club Superleague and an impressive one at that, couldn't you work that one out??
You don't receive, you just transmit. I withdrew Salford from my list and added Widnes. It was a mistake, Any determined and well planned consolidation of SL needs to remove such as Salford even with Koukash. It was a bad mistake. It's easy to be dragged along on the idea rich men's subsidies will "make" the game.
That's how your position has gradually evolved to the point where if P & R comes back you said more rich men will somehow be attracted to take on clubs, even though the problem we have is rich men are fed up subbing clubs and losing in the bottom half of SL and rich men are trying to make clubs self sufficient at the top. Even though under P & R 1996 - 2006 few came forward. Care to deal with that??
Only two clubs are propped up by regular £Millions, and a 10 strong club Superleague that wants financial stability and longevity does not need that IMHO. Look at Mr. Khan - how long did it take him to walk away? Or Mr. Glover.
It was a bad mistake on my part. Salford half competed in SL on Wilkinson's £Millions and he walked away. That left the real prospect of no Salford at all - a big lesson to learn and I made a big mistake and got trapped in the idea a strong SL needs Koukash. Widnes are clearly the better bet with the stronger plans. I can concede to VW on this.
You haven't changed your position one iota. You also made the mistake of still insisting on "standards" for P &R when it's standards that keep clubs from promotion. They are not "all inclusive" they prevent what happens on the pitch being the driver for the structure of the game? Care to now deal with that?
Neither St Helens or Wigan or Warrington are big cities. They are big clubs in RL terms but it is you who insist that SL must be made up of big city teams. I repeat, where are they?. Care to deal with that ???
You add Widnes now but when you are riding your merger high horse Widnes are set for the knackers yard. Care to deal with that ????
In a perfect world, all clubs would be profitable and self sustaining. However, in the real world in which RL is currently
operating, the fact is the a great majority of SL teams are propped up by rich men and even the two or three who are self sustaining were bankrolled into that position by rich men.
Salford are in the bottom half and are currently being aggressively financed by an apparently uber rich man. Widnes are in the bottom half and have several rich investors. One announced he was increasing his stake in the last couple of weeks.
Wakefield are in the bottom half. They have just changed one rich investor who walked for some new ones.
Bradford, a protypical BIG club are in the bottom half and the one walking out is negotiating with the ones who want to walk in.
In the championship, currently without p and r Featherstone have rich investors, the main man at Halifax recently increased his investment. Leigh think they have enough money to post a challenge. If there was p and r in place, others may care to jump in. Your theory of they never, ever, ever will invest in Championship rugby doesn't hold water.
Standards prevent under prepared or under capitalised clubs form getting promoted. This is unfortunate but necessary and I CAME TO THIS POSITIION by being persuaded of it's necessity by threads and arguments from you. The standards are to prevent bankruptcies among clubs on winning promotion on the field. They do not prevent promotion of any club if they qualify by meeting the standards. The likely winners of the championship already know this and at least two of them are meeting the standards already. Sheffield are the unknown, but having the greatest regards of mark Aston for what he has achieved to date after starting from below zero with the eagles in CC1, it would nor surprise me if the eagles also found a way. that is my position and I consider it dealt with.
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there will always be failure in sport in fact its a necessary, the problem is if you reward success they will get more successful, in the NFL they reward failure and have a vibrant comp with different teams winning each year, carolina panthers were the worst team last year, this year they are one of the best!
I like their system where clubs aren't responsible for player production and the worst team get first pick of the new talent!
Maybe something that the RFL need to look at! For example london wouldn't have struggled to club train players that would have been down to the RFL, london could sign tomkins or whoever as a youth product at no cost they obviously would be better for it! Also the best london talent could end up, up north like now with no cost to the broncos!
This would also benefit championship clubs as they also could pick some talent after the SL clubs!
They get to pick the best players based on finishing last but it is not at no cost. Once they have made their picks if they don't come up with massive multi millon dollar contracts for the player they will not be able to sign him and all that is before he has played one game at a pro level
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Catalan Dragons are not the team of Perpignan as Castleford Tigers are the team of Castleford, they are the team of the Catalan Region. A huge area, with a very large population. They are the elite face of a rugby league area. This of course is an anathema to you.
Of course most of their supporters who turn up for games on a regular basis will be from Perpignan, but their support base is aimed at a much wider audience, and their TV and merchandising base is what they are aiming to sell.
You really don't get this modern marketing thinking do you.
I guess not. Shouldn't Wigan be called the Greater Manchester Rangers or Salford the Conurbation Lynx or some such ?
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Parochial to the end
Have you ever visited perpignan?
Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.
What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting.
They make a major contribution to THE GAME
A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000
I don't know what we would do if we couldn't travel to Perpignan every year. Yes it's a great trip for the fans but what does it do for SL in the UK. A vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, ooo, er where would we be if we didn't see a team full of Aussies and French superstars who could only manage to beat Papua New Guinea in the World Cup. I am not advocating dispensing with the Catalans but I think they get more from the deal than the UK SL does. I think their appearance in the Cup Final resulted in one of the smallest attendances in recent years.
If you read my post you would see where I said I had recently been to Perpignan and the population of the city is 120,000. I drove to the beach and up into the Pyrenhees and I don't think a huge amount of support would drive to the city to follow the Catalans especially as the RU team is also a power in the area.
What you are doing is like me claiming that Keighley could draw from the whole population of the Bradford MET because they are located in it's administrative area.
I don't know what happened there, I managed to get my reply under your heading,\. My apologies
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Parochial to the end
Have you ever visited perpignan?
Has it occurred to you that the team doesn't represent the city but it's environs and the catalan people? There's a clue in the name.
What do they do to further the cause of the English game? They make trip to an away game one of the highlights of the season for super league club fans. They make a massive contribution to the English game on the field clue: they've been to Wembley and gave made a big impact on super league. They add a vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, which a,great many fans find exciting.
They make a major contribution to THE GAME
A quick Google search, which you could have made for yourself reveals that the perpignan metropolitan area has a population of over 300,000
I don't know what we would do if we couldn't travel to Perpignan every year. Yes it's a great trip for the fans but what does it do for SL in the UK. A vibrant cosmopolitan dimension, ooo, er where would we be if we didn't see a team full of Aussies and French superstars who could only manage to beat Papua New Guinea in the World Cup. I am not advocating dispensing with the Catalans but I think they get more from the deal than the UK SL does. I think their appearance in the Cup Final resulted in one of the smallest attendances in recent years.
If you read my post you would see where I said I had recently been to Perpignan and the population of the city is 120,000. I drove to the beach and up into the Pyrenhees and I don't think a huge amount of support would drive to the city to follow the Catalans especially as the RU team is also a power in the area.
What you are doing is like me claiming that Keighley could draw from the whole population of the Bradford MET because they are located in it's administrative area.
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Which once again proves the point that it is Money that makes the game work, Promoting a club ( i have nothing against P&R, But unless they can survive financially it is just going through the motions , and it takes over 3 million, Which promoted club do you see surviving promotion,? Serious question. Without the If and maybe's, Do you see anybody doing it, no reverences to failing SL clubs because that doesn't strengthen their case, The fans wont watch another club. I know which club looks the best bet. are you confident they will prosper in SL.
That's up to the clubs as to whether they can hack it or not. They will have done their sums. I think the people running Fev and Fax and maybe Leigh think they can manage it.
I don't think they can do any worse than some of the failing clubs whom I am not allowed to reference.
Let them try and we will see whether they can hack it or not. As you say Huddersfield were all but dead and Davy has brought them back to the point where they won the league leaders shield and Hull KR have risen from the third division to SL, as have Widnes from div 2 and indeed Salford.
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Salford, Hull, Perpignan, Toulouse, Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield,.....
Time to agree to disagree.
All those teams except for Toulouse are already in SL so where are the big city teams that you want to be in SL to replace Castleford, Widnes, Huddersfield, Hull KR, and others. Also I was in Perpignan recently for the first time and it is a charming place but hardly a big city. You have only recently jumped on the Salford band wagon. You had a whole thread last year where you wrote the Manchester conurbation off as a lost cause prior to Koukash.
These mega clubs that you seek just do not exist. The idea of having big city teams is fine in theory but these teams just do not exist in practice. Even some of the games biggest teams are not from big cities, i.e. Wigan and Saints. RL is not a big city market for the most part in the UK.
In the case of the French teams, their inclusion is welcome and the French game needs all the assistance we can give it but what do they actually do to further the cause of the English game.
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Bradford are seized on as a badly managed club by champions of smaller clubs who say those smaller clubs are "well managed" and therefore deserve a shot at Superleague. The list of well managed smaller clubs include Sheffield, Leigh and Halifax who have had their shots in Superleague which weren't well managed but any old argument will do in a storm.
My pal Mr. K comes up with ""Potential promotes would probably need some outside help with financing and the opportunity for promotion would certainly help them in their search for such persons"". An admission that no club outside SL has the money to compete, but that is glossed over by "certainty" that persons would more likely come forward with £Millions once they spot that Sheffield, Leigh, Halifax, Dewsbury Featherstone and Keighley have the chance to get in Superleague year on year.
That clubs already IN Superleague can't find a rich man is glossed over, but again any old argument will do.
And that takes me to your suggestion and I hope you will forgive me if I point out 14 clubs is IMHO untenable because it's a continuation of the status quo in which several club chairmen are calling a halt over their continued investments because it's a very costly way to make up the numbers. To condemn 14 clubs to continue under the difficult conditions after next year when London and Bradford may become embarrassments and others follow is not on IMHO.
And I think that is clearly the opinion of the SL clubs themselves hence the cut to 12. The cut to 12 is designed to make the league stronger which logically it will hence I feel a cut to ten is worth a look? Of course fans of the named clubs who would be even more shut out by this, so they are up in arms (which is the reason for all the passion through these 112 pages) at this idea.
3x8=2x12 is very inclusive it gives each group what it wants on paper. The 8 superleague clubs who want to stay super and stay spending get their eight, two SL clubs are relieved of the burden of Superleague they can't hack, four SL clubs are relieved of the costs of "standards" and having to take season long beatings and can go play with the small boys once they've had their thrashings from the bigger boys, and the small clubs can continue to feel they are in with a shout at Superleague.
That in effect we will only have an 8 club superleague doesn't matter, they can become one in name only for two thirds of a season and all will be happy. Will 2x12=3x8 work? Not for me. Once things settle down I think that we may again be looking for the next "solution" to the problems that the limited resources the game has are spread too thinly, because this "solution" exacerbates that basic problem IMHO.
As far as I know, Fev and Fax think they already have investors and can hack it in SL.Leigh seem to think that they can manage also.
3 x 8 is rubbish and a Trojan horse. We need one or two up and down.
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P&R never went away! It just changed to a three year cycle! You still had to win something to be in with a shout!
And that was no guarantee you would be in Sl. It just put you in he queue with all the other SL teams.
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so your saying keighley overspent and tried to buy a SL place? Are you saying they failed without sky money? .....
Psstt Bradford currently are being starved of sky money whats the difference?
(The rfl bought both grounds as well!)
Keighley did buy a SL place. The smoke filled back room cabal then decided their fate and refused to let them in the league and the risky strategy backfired and the club collapsed. Had they been given their place, who knows what might have ensued.
Keighley never got their hands on SL Sky money. Bradford have had years of it and still collapsed.
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The SL clubs rip off half of Bradford's SKY money just after they have had financial problems.
Result? Bradford "have a huge amount of issues"
Reason: "Bradford are poorly managed"
Call Sheffield in to replace them. Sheffield are as big as Bradford but for a big investor over many many years?? Sorry for the sarcasm but what is the best structure for the game in the REAL world and why?
Sheffield will not be called in to replace Bradford. They will be promoted to replace the bottom SL team if they satisfy the promotion criteria.
Bradford will remain in SL unless they finish bottom or go belly up again and cannot carry on.
What is thought to be best for the game will be known shortly.
The never-ending League Restructure debate (Many merged threads)
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
The poster you were responding to here is Giants fan and they are the prototype of a club who were being given the last rites when, hey presto a Rich man turned up.
The latest example of this is Salford.
Given the viewing figures for SL. Given the success of the WC, both on the field and on TV, given the promises of Toulouse that they have a TV deal lined up. Given Premier sports are till interested in the Championship. Given that BT are new players in the TV wars and might be interested. How you can be so rock solid sure that there is no avenue for increased TV money.
Vilify those views if you want to prop up your doom and gloom outlook but you do not know if there is more TV money to be had. I have not predicted that there are millions more out there for the game, I have just given a few reasons why it might be probable.
You, on the otherhand, make a statement that there is categorically no more TV money to be had as if you had been given that information from a soothsayer. Methinks you want it to be a self fulfilling prophecy based on your wishes to prove a point. No more, no less.