Wiltshire Warrior Dragon
-
Posts
3,001 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Posts posted by Wiltshire Warrior Dragon
-
-
On 5/16/2018 at 6:05 PM, ivans82 said:
Live in West Cumbria and Lapwings have all but vanished from this area although the fields and marshy areas where they used to nest are still the same don`t know why .
Sadly, also much less common than, say 20 years ago, around the New Forest and the river valleys around Salisbury.
-
On 3/27/2018 at 8:41 PM, Padge said:
Richard Carew published a chronical in 1602 The Survey of Cornwall, in this he describes two forms of hurling played in Cornwall at the time.
The two forms are one with goals and one without goals. The game described with goals sounds slightly familiar.
It is a difficult read in its original, I have gone over it and given it a few tweaks to help make it more readable. Here we have players predominantly handling the ball and being wrestled to the ground and shouting hold to yield. We also have attackers and defenders, the defenders are the best hurlers, the ones that are good at wrestling the opposition to the ground. Forward passes are not allowed and there is no mention of kicking.
Hurling takes his denomination from throwing of the ball, and is of two sorts, in the East parts of Cornwall, to goals, and in the West, to the contrary.
For hurling to goals, there are 15. 20. or 30. players more or less, chosen out on each side, who strip them- selves into their slightest apparel, and then join hands in rank one against another. Out of these ranks they match themselves by pairs, one embracing another, and so pass away: every of which couple, are specially to watch one another during the play.
After this, they pitch two bushes in the ground, some eight or ten foot asunder; and directly against them, ten or twelve score off, other twain in like distance, which they term their goals. One of these is appointed by lots, to the one side, and the other to his adverse party. There is assigned for their guard, a couple of their best stopping Hurlers; the residue draw into the midst between both goals, where some indifferent person throw up a ball, the which whosoever can catch, and cary through his adversaries goal, has won the game. But therein consists one of Hercules his labours: for he that is once possessed of the ball, has his contrary mate waiting at inches, and assaying to lay hold upon him. The other thrust him in the breast, with his closed fist, to keep him off; which they call Butting, and place in well doing the same, no small point of manhood.
If he escape the first, another takes him in hand, and so a third, neither is he left, until having met (as the Frenchman say) Chausseura son pied, he either touch the ground with some part of his body, in wrestling, or cry, Hold; which is the word of yielding. Then must he cast the ball (named Dealing) to some one of his fellows, who catching the same in his hand, makes away with all as before; and if his hap or agility bee so good, as to shake off or outrun his counter-waiters, at the goal, he finds one or two fresh men, ready to receive and keep him off. It is therefore a very disadvantaged match, or extraordinary accident, that leads to many goals: howbeit, that side carries away the best reputation, which gives most falls in the hurling, keeps the ball longest, and press his contrary nearest to their own goal. Sometimes one chosen person on each party deals the ball.
The Hurlers are bound to the observation of many laws, as, that they must hurl man to man, and not two set upon one man at once: that the Hurler against the ball, must not but, nor hand-fast under girdle: that he who hath the ball, must but only in the others breast: that he must deal no Fore-ball, viz. he may not throw it to any of his mates, standing nearer the goal, than himself. Lastly, in dealing the ball, if any of the other part can catch it flying between, or e’re the other have it fast, he thereby wins the same to his side, which straightway of defendant becomes assailant, as the other, of assailant falls to be defendant. The least breach of these laws, the Hurlers take for a just cause of going together by the ears, but with their fists only; neither does any among them seek revenge for such wrongs or hurts, but at the like play again. These hurling matches are mostly used at weddings, where commonly the guests undertake to encounter all comers.
Belatedly, Padge, many thanks for that fascinating insight into one form of Cornish hurling. For some reason, I hadn't spotted this contribution of yours before.
I knew I had seen a reference, somewhere in the past, to the no-forward-pass rule in Cornish hurling, presumably made by somebody aware of the text you quote.
-
On 4/9/2018 at 9:23 AM, Farmduck said:
I saw a question on another forum that might have been more useful here: Where's a good place to bird watch falcons in England?
If by falcons you mean birds of prey more generally, it's hard to beat the New Forest. I was dog walking at Acre Down (in the forest) a few years ago and met a man who had been birdwatching since dawn. In the six or so hours that had past, he had seen buzzard, honey buzzard, sparrowhawk, goshawk, peregrine, kestrel, hobby and red kite! All these, apart from the red kite, are quite longstanding species found in the New Forest. Goshawks nest regularly in small numbers, buzzards and sparrowhawks are resident all year round and honey buzzards are summer visitors to breed in small numbers. Hobbies - also summer migrants coming here to breed - are a heathland speciality, so the new forest is a good place to see them (and have a chance of doing so); seeing one hawking at speed for flying insects or small birds is a fantastic sight, which I have managed tow or three times in the forest or nearby. At first glance they can look like an overlarge swift.
Red kites were very rare hereabouts twenty years ago, but seeing them everywhere is an increasingly common phenomenon, including drifting over larger urban centres like Salisbury and Winchester. Peregrines seen in the New Forest could be visiting to hunt, from nest sights in urban areas, or be nesting locally.
Finally, at this time of year, if one remembers the most easily overlooked piece of advice for bird-watching - "birds fly, so look upwards!" - it is just possible that you might see an osprey on the closing stages of its spring migration from Africa to the English north and midlands, Wales or Scotland, as it crosses the New Forest or other parts of Hampshire and Wiltshire. Indeed, one was reported about three days ago passing over Mike McMeeken's home town.
-
1
-
-
Just heard my first cuckoo, in the New Forest about an hour ago. Time to dust down the Frederick Delius CD, me thinks!
-
10 hours ago, Padge said:
Just a quick reply before I look at your other points, and I always welcome corrections/alternatives on this stuff. The St.Ives one is known as Hurling the Silver Ball and I have been there when it happens, in early February.
I have pictures of the start of the 'game' here. In the third pic you can see the Silver Ball as the mayor launches it to the youths on the beach. The lad in the black shirts gets it and sets off with everyone else in pursuit.
Great photos! Thanks for those.
-
On 3/24/2018 at 1:21 PM, Padge said:
The recent debate about did Yorkshire give the world RL, in which I played a bit of a devils advocate by pointing out there could be many different claims as to when RL was "invented". set me to thinking about the origins of rugby as a whole. So I have been doing a bit of digging, particularly about firsts (another topic elsewhere).
The story of football from the 12th to 15th(ish) centuries, this my take on it.
The first known mention of ball games being played at schools, London in particular is by William Fitzstephens in his “A Description of London” written circa 1174/1183, transcribed by Henry Thomas Riley in 1860 from the original in Latin.
Each year on the day called "Carnival"* schoolboys bring fighting-cocks to their schoolmaster, and the entire morning is given over to the boyish sport, for there is a school holiday for purpose of the cock fights.
After lunch all the youth of the city go out into the fields to take part in a ball game**. The students of each school have their own ball; the workers from each city craft are also carrying their balls. Older citizens, fathers, and wealthy citizens come on horseback to watch their juniors competing, and to relive their own youth vicariously: you can see their inner passions aroused as they watch the action and get caught up in the fun being had by the carefree adolescents.
*Carnival at this time was Shrove Tuesday.
**The type of ball game isn’t specified and there were many different types of ball games then as there is now. Hand-ball, balloon-ball, camp-ball, hurling (played with a bat and ball), hurling (without a bat) and football were a few of the variations of ball games.
It is inferred from the fact that this particular game was played on Shrove Tuesday, a traditional day in many towns, cities and schools for a mass game of football, that this is in fact the same or similar game to that traditionally played in places like Chester, Derby and probably the most famous place for mob football Ashburton in Derbyshire.
The earliest known reference of ball games apparently being played by university students was in 1303 when "Thomas of Salisbury, a student of Oxford University, found his brother Adam dead, and it was alleged that he was killed by Irish students, whilst playing the ball in the High Street towards Eastgate"*. The game wasn’t being played at the University but on the streets of Oxford.
*From Morris Marples “A History of Football. Again football isn’t mentioned but it would seem that ball game played was a form of mob football which was generally played on the streets and not in fields.
For a reference to football we have to move on to 1314, when Nicholas de Farndone, Lord Mayor of the City of London issued a decree on behalf of King Edward II banning football. The reasons for the ban is cited as “the noise caused by the hustling over large foot balls, in the fields of the public from which many evils might arise.which God forbid”
It seems, that at least in London, football was being played in fields, probably common land, rather than on the streets at this time.
Edward III went further in 1363 and declared a ban throughout England of a prescribed list of idle pastimes; "moreover we ordain that you prohibit under penalty of imprisonment all and sundry from such stone, wood and iron throwing; handball, football, or hockey; coursing and cock-fighting, or other such idle games".
It’s interesting that now types of ball games are being differentiated, handball, football and hockey are classed as ball games, the implication being that some form of basic rules are being applied. References are now quite clearly made to the type of ball game rather than a game of ball.
At the other end of the spectrum in 1321 Pope John XXII granted dispensation of blame to William de Spalding of Shouldham following a death during a game of ball, a game in which the ball was kicked.
"To William de Spalding, canon of Scoldham of the order of Sempringham. During the game at ball as he kicked the ball, a lay friend of his, also called William, ran against him and wounded himself on a sheathed knife carried by the canon, so severely that he died within six days. Dispensation is granted, as no blame is attached to William de Spalding, who, feeling deeply the death of his friend, and fearing what might be said by his enemies, has applied to the pope."
By the middle of the 14th Century it appears that the game of football is identified as a particular ball game and is being played by school and university students, the clergy and the man in the street. It is dangerous game, though since there wasn’t match reports on every game as today it isn’t easy to establish how dangerous, then as now the deaths tend to grab the headlines.
It is possible that the first record of a football club comes from the accounts of the Worshipful Company of Brewers, a London trade association for brewers. Their accounts showed that between 1421 and 1423 they charged for the hire of their hall "by the "ffooteballepleyers" twice... 20 pence" listed under the title "crafts and fraternities". Referring to the football players as a fraternity would mean this was an organised group of players who probably played together, a club.
Around 1430 there is reference to football being played in East Anglia, the game here was Camp Ball, Thomas Lydgate also leaves a hint as to where the name Camp Ball is derived from "Bolseryd out of length and bread, lyck a large campynge balle", it seems Camp was short for Campaign. A 1440 dictionary confirms this to be a form of football.
The rector of Swafham in Norfolk bequeathed to his parish a field that adjoined the churchyard specifically for the use as a “Camping Close”, for the playing of Camp Ball (football). It appears that this the first reference to a football field that is set aside for the playing of the sport.
All of this points to football being formalised a lot earlier than we tend to think, no doubt over the next years and decades there were a lot more football fraternities and Camping Close. The use of the word close is significant as at Rugby School talk of football being played on the close is often referenced, presumably this is taken from enclosure as Rugby School still has The Close which is an enclosed grassed playing area.
Although by the mid-fifteenth century we can see football being played in some form all over the country and the early possible formation of clubs and land set aside as a football field there is little known of the game itself. For that we must wait until the latter end of the 15th century.
In a set of manuscripts commissioned by John Morgan dean of Windsor, dated between 1481 and 1496 and known as the Miracles of Henry VI, fittingly towards the end of the Wars of the Roses, there is a description of a football game played at Caunton* in Nottinghamshire.
*Often referred to as Cawston, the original manuscripts were in Latin and translated, and as with surnames place names could change slightly over time or be misinterpreted once and it sticks. There are places named Cawston but the chronicles specifically mention a place in Nottinghamshire.
What is described in the Miracles of Henry VI is a kicking game:
"The game at which they had met for common recreation is called by some the football game. It is one in which young men, in country sport, propel a huge ball not by throwing it into the air but by striking it and rolling it along the ground, and that not with their hands but with their feet... kicking in opposite directions"
There is one other thing of significance in the chronicle, it is the first description of a pitch being marked out. Previously the aim of the ball game was to get the ball to a specific place but no boundaries were stated as to how it got there.
"The boundaries have been marked and the game had started, a game, I say, abominable enough . . . and rarely ending but with some loss, accident, or disadvantage of the players themselves."
The game though becoming more formal, played within specific boundaries and with specific aims was still described as violent and this is why it made it into the Miracle Chronicles. A young player was injured during the game “in the most sensitive parts while playing football”. Nothing unusual in that but the young player claimed, after days of incapacity, that he was cured after he had a vision of “glorious King Henry”. The footballer was taken to Windsor to recount his story and whilst there was asked to demonstrate the football game to the palace courtiers.
The poet Alexander Barcley provides a description of a kicking and handling game in 1510.
“They get the bladder and blowe it great and thin, with many beanes and peason put within, It ratleth, shineth and soundeth clere and fayre, While it is throwen and caste up in the eyre, Eche one contendeth and hath a great delite, with foote and hande the bladder for to smite, if it fall to the ground they lifte it up again... Overcometh the winter with driving the foote-ball.”
What the chronicles tell us though is that the kicking game was considered unusual, it specifically has to mention that it was not a handling game. The chronicles even contain a description of dribbling. Barcley then provides a description of a game that uses hand and foot. At this point we seem to have a divergence into a kicking game, a handling game and a hybrid kicking and handling version.
I always enjoy your contributions on sporting history, Padge, and this is no exception; many thanks for it.
A few points, related to text I have highlighted. Christina Hole, in English Custom and Usage, notes that "Shrove Tuesday was...the last opportunity for merry-making before Lent began, and was kept as a general holiday. Games and sports of every kind, cock-fighting and wrestling and the less reputable 'thrashing the hen' were the order of the day...Street football was, and still is, played in a number of places." She mentions Chester-Le-Street, Ashbourne, Atherstone, Sedgefield, Alnwick and Corfe Castle. She also mentions Cornish hurling (nothing like Irish hurling, by the way) at St Columb Major on Shrove Tuesday and at St Ives the day before (Quinquagesima Monday) I personally have seen the closing stages of the Ashbourne game and, as a child was driven through the streets of St Columb Major with all the shops boarded up in readiness for the hurling! Hole's book was first published during WWII. I think at some point in the year (possibly Shrove Tuesday, possibly not) there has been a tradition of playing football in the (very shallow!) river in the middle of Bourton-on-the-Water.
For 'Ashburton', I think you mean 'Ashbourne'.
I would not call the Worshipful Company of Brewers a trade association. They were - and are - one of the livery companies of the City of London. Yes, there was a trade association element to what they did, but more than that. Indeed, many of these livery companies nowadays have little direct connection with their trade, their main activity being their charitable work (which may or may not relate to their profession). The brewers, incidentally, rank 14th in order of precedence, out of 107 such bodies. Not all are old professions, by the way; the Worshipful Company of Information technologists (ranked 100th) demonstrate that! Because a livery company was, historically, a male-dominated group of like-minded/employed people, I would think 'fraternity' could equally refer to any such company. So, I am not persuaded that you can deduce that what is being referred to here is a sports (ie football) club; it might be, but might not!
There is indeed a village of Caunton in Nottinghamshire; it is north-west of Newark-on-Trent, just off the road to Mansfield.
As I said, Padge, great post and many thanks for it.
-
1 hour ago, Moose said:
Paid a visit to Wakefield today and saw a couple of blokes, one with a camera the other with binoculars looking up at the cathedral tower, being nosey I asked them what they are looking at and they pointed out a pair of Peregrine Falcons perched on a specially placed nesting box. Evidently the same pair have nested there for at least the last five years.
When you think about it, a cathedral roof, tower or spire is a great place for peregrines - safe nesting site with minimal risk of disturbance (human or otherwise) and generous food supply (aka pigeons) on tap!
At Salisbury Cathedral, the Dean & Chapter (ie the cathedral authorities) have had an arrangement for a couple of years or so, whereby visitors to the cathedral can watch a webcam of the nest, when it is in use. Of course, if you are lucky, you see them coming and going, as I did one summer's evening a few years ago as I left the cathedral where I had been with a visiting choir singing choral evensong.
-
1
-
-
33 minutes ago, BryanC said:
Working in one of the less salubrious parts of Manchester, I'm regularly delighted to catch sight of the odd peregrine.
Sometimes one, sometimes a pair - usually perching, but now and again out terrorising the many local pigeons.
It is one of the great features of urban wildlife in the last twenty or so years how peregrines have come in from rural areas. I had a meeting this morning with officials from Wells Cathedral. Their Clerk of Works said he wished, like their diocesan neighbours, Salisbury Cathedral, they had resident peregrines to keep the pigeon population in check!
Meanwhile, yesterday, walking in the New Forest, I heard a goshawk. This is one of, I think, three species of bird that I know I have heard in the wild, but not seen. The others are nightingale (both in this country and in France) and golden oriole (in France) Does anybody else keep ridiculous lists like this in their head?
-
On 22/11/2017 at 4:04 PM, Bedford Roughyed said:
Yup black tip on the tail, and was biting the back of the neck.
We were debating whether it was a Stoat or a weasel, but it was pretty small, red/brown coat with white belly and black tip on the tail.
One is weasily recognisable, the other is stoatally different...
...I'll get my hat, coat, binoculars and leave!
-
1
-
spuggies and jackdaws and hedgehogs and frogs
in Any Other Business / Any Other Sports
Posted
This is the time of year when, with any luck, at dusk and in the night, you can hear or see a cockchafer beetle - a flying insect, called a 'maybug' in country parlance, and which makes an amazing, soft, droning noise as it approaches. (is this perhaps why German WW2 flying bombs were called 'doodlebugs', I wonder.)
I have come across two in recent nights. Like many flying creatures they are attracted by light, so may crash into your windows, making a surprisingly loud noise for a small creature. That, however, is probably because they have strong casing on the wings, which looks like beautiful polished, grained wood. There legs are bright red.
My favourite insect!