[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

7 hours ago, zylya said:

To summarise, at the moment there's no real positioning of the Challenge Cup to RL consumers. For me, positioning the Super League Grand Final as the two best teams in the sport as compared to the Challenge Cup Final as being a celebration of the best OF the sport.

 This guy gets it 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

41 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:

What makes you think we'd sell out Newcastle? We've never sold out a day of Magic. And when the CC final was held a Spurs - which was a fantastic experience - the crowd was still lower than the lowest of the recent Wembley finals, excluding the Cats game. Shrinking the venue to a club football ground gives all sorts of signals of its own, and you could kiss goodbye to the London+SE audience too. 

It may be that the CC is not able to be turned around for a whole host of factors possibly beyond our control. Maybe it doesn't even need to be. I'd rather see internationals survive than CC if I was forced to choose. 

But as long as it's financially viable to hold the game at Wembley, we should do, and make the cup something people nationwide want to see, rather than contracting its reach because we've given up trying.

I too think we should keep Wembley. Once we lose a foothold there we will never get it back.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

1 hour ago, JF1 said:

I really do feel it's time we ditched Wembley. We can tinker all we like with the formats,but surely a packed out final is a necessity. For that reason I would ditch Magic Weekend at Newcastle and replace it with the Cup Final.

I've been to every final since 1974,the experience back then was a million miles from what it is today. Then,the object of the weekend was largely to sink as much bleedin' Watneys Red Barrel as possible and cheer your team on in a rugby match with 80 or 90,000 others.

Now,it is much more sanitised. When the "new" Wembley opened,everybody was wowed by the great views and good leg room,but it soon became a case of been there,done that. Hence we arrived at 62k for a derby between Warrington and Saints. The whole place is soulless when barely 2/3 full. And don't get me started on the annoying compere trying to whip up enthusiasm,forget his name.

Capacity at Newcastle may be an issue,but a thread asking how to get hold of tickets rather than estimating the number of empty seats would make better reading.

I don't expect this to be a popular opinion,possibly even defeatist. But lately,we have come away from Wembley saying that was fun,where are we eating tonight?

I get what you mean. I don't think it's just a rugby league thing either a football fans say the same thing. I understand that maybe Wembley is too big but we need to keep a foothold in London and maintain RL as a sport worthy of the country's grandest stadium.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

11 hours ago, R L Winger said:

As international flight times get shorter include NRL teams into The Challenge Cup and later on other teams from all over the world as the game of Rugby League grows, turning The Challenge Cup into a world wide club competition.

A European Cup is not that far-fetched.

Win your domestic country's league and gain entry into the challenge cup. We've already have had 7 different European nations compete, why not more?

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

We all agree the final has to be a major event that transcends sport.

But first things first, the competition has got to revive it's appeal to all RL fans. Like I said in an earlier post, for clubs outside of Super League The Challenge Cup is a competition to see who will be the 4 teams that will lose to Super League opposition in round 6.

There's no romance. There's no sense it's a competition for all of RL. And we're left with Super League teams potentially playing a fixture that might be repeated 3, 4 or even 5 times that season.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

1 hour ago, Rugbyleaguesupporter said:

Do different winners boost crowds?

Man city won 5 leagues in 6 and PL attendances high 

NBA biggest growth was during Bulls years 

Darts biggest growth during Taylor years

Let's not lose track that this is a thread about the Cup not the League.

One of the aspects that is undervaluing the Cup in my opinion is it does't take a great deal of effort for SL teams to reach the final. Both Hull KR and Leigh could reach this year's cup final by beating just 3 teams one of the being a Championship team.

More crowds will come to a 6th round (3rd in my proposal) Quarter final or Semi-final games if there was a sense their place was truly earned. Not as a result of late entry and winning 1 game against a championship side they blew away.

Leigh's cup run to the final would include beating Wakefield, beating York (probably) and beating just one other team SL team. That's not a massive achievement. Not Leigh's fault at all btw.

Hull KR's route will be a 50-0 win at Batley, a win against Salford and one other victory against a SL team. Again an achievement but not enough the stuff of legend.

(All cards on the table I'm hoping for a Leigh v Hull KR Final)

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

10 hours ago, Dirkgee said:

Ice hockey is a contact sport, is facing concussion issues, yet they also play 7 game series and each team plays 82 regular season matches before the 7 game, 4 round playoffs

What Rugby League has to confront is that there is very real evidence of long term damage to the brain through repetitive concussions and sub concussions from playing Rugby which has resulted in legal action taken by former RL players.

How Ice Hockey chooses to address or not address it's concussion issues is not my concern. Ice hockey playing 82 games a season doesn't change reality for RL in this country nor is it a defence for inaction on our part.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

2 hours ago, RP London said:

Thats why I'd get super league teams in earlier for sure.. but the last paragraph would get negated by the handicap.. if they want a cup run they go with a strong team to get it, you are making those teams who need a cup run lose by going with a side that could be really very weak due to the depth of the squad.. its just a dangerous one that could lead to actually even more of the same old same old teams towards the end of the comp. 

Where I think we differ is the gap between the Super League and The Championship/League One. I think the gap between Super League and the lower half of The Championship & League One makes fixtures between those teams should they arise no-contests. I think a handicap makes those games more competitive but won't necessarily give an unreasonable advantage for League One and Championship teams.

Overall we're too Super League focussed. The Challenge Cup is for all levels of Rugby League it can't be ringfenced for Super League teams to enter late and proceed to a final after only 3 games playing opposition they either destroy or might play up to 3-4 times in Super League anyway.

There's also a player welfare aspect. A team consisting of semi-pro or amateur players shouldn't potentially face a full strength St Helens, Wigan or Warrington. I know you'll say they wouldn't pick a full strength team anyway but if there was a rule that applied to all SL teams to make sure the contest would be more even and therefore more engaging. It might not even change the result but it would make each game and the competition fairer and safer.

I don't think any Championship Club would win the cup or even make the final even with my proposal but they would have more of a chance to have some success in the competition. And the SL team that does go on to win it will have to win 6 challenging and competitive games to do it. (The handicap would only apply in rounds 1-3)

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

14 minutes ago, RP London said:

I am not disagreeing with you... 

my issue is this, do you need to solve it? you may not.. what is the point of having another league structure comp sitting separately from the League? If its about one of purchases then yes chucking it in the season ticket may solve it but then its losing money potentially so what is the point?

all of what you say may be true but maybe thats ok.. maybe its ok that it hasnt got the high profile it once had.. the play offs have that. Maybe its ok that the crowds arent as high as long as we can live with them as they are extra revenue after all.. 

the question to counter your point therefore is: What is success for this? 

does it need to be the biggest thing? if so maybe actually we have to devalue something else and is that worth it? but perhaps for a secondary comp it is successful?

If cup games just arent as popular as league games anymore then that is ok and we have 2 good comps.. why try and turn the cup into another league, we have one of those and it works well. Maybe in time people will come back to cup comps (as trends change) and then we dont have one??

Can the Challenge Cup not just be what it is? a great old competition that is not as popular as it once was but is still popular, still is a showpiece and something refreshingly different? Innovate it a bit but without taking the fundamentals away from it.. 

I am literally just spit balling because I am not as doom and gloom as some and I am concerned that a lot of what is suggested is the final act of a desperate man that could kill it as much as cure it.. and I just dont think that is fair. 

Without knowing what is success, what are the reasons we are not getting there (if we are not), what is actually realistic, what is stopping us getting there and what can realistically be done to solve that without causing detriment to other competitions.. without all that we are just going to go around in circles because none of us actually know the problem we are trying to fix... 

 

I like where you are coming from. The Challenge Cup doesn't have to be the biggest game of the year and you're right it has to offer something different. For me right now it isn't serving anyone. The opening rounds are largely a qualifying competition as to determine who get the honour of losing to Super League teams when they enter.

Everyone is playing mostly similar opposition they play during the course of a league season as they enter the competition as the same time. Barring a few exceptions, League One play teams are likely to other League One teams, Championship teams are likely to play other Championship teams and then Super League teams are likely to play Super League teams. It's not very diverse, interesting or random.

Any club having a so-so season should be able to appreciate that the cup competition can offer them either a shot at glory or a season high of a cup-run and/or potential big name scalp. 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

6 minutes ago, David Shepherd said:

Possibly. Massively more successful than RL though.......

WWE is not sport, it's theatre.

Don't get me wrong I loved WWE when I was young and there's lots of lessons to learn from it in terms of marketing, innovation and telling stories through a sporting lens but it's not sport it is predetermined theatre.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

Thanks for all the contributions.

Very interesting to read. To me there's seems to be some areas of agreement.

1. The final needs a fixed permanent date/weekend in the year
2. Loop fixtures in Super League need to be scrapped (More a general RL issue that just for the C Cup)
3. Super League teams need to enter earlier in the competition
4. It should remain as a straight knock-out competition (largely agree)
5. The competition should remain on the BBC/terrestrial tv channels

I believe a rebrand and marketing strategy highlighting it's International aspect is the way to interest new investment and exposure. I also still believe a handicap for SL teams to encourage real jeopardy (for the earlier rounds) will make the competition far more intriguing. It will also lessen the potential embarrassment of blow-out scores which in my opinion de-values a competition. Who wants to watch no-contest game of any sport?

Like a TV series, why do you have to watch the first 3 or 4 episodes for it to finally "Get going" or "To get into it". The competition should start with everyone in round 1 with a greater sense of challenge for SL teams and genuine peril being knocked out.

 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

4 hours ago, Harry Stottle said:

I gave you a thanks for the post as a whole, BUT that statement is purely a personal interpretation on your part, there are many who will fervently disagree with you JAG, fill out stadia and pay good money for the privaledge of doing so.

Now if you said Association Football is boring I would congratulate and agree agree with you but then again that is my personal feeling albeit I realise I would probably be out numbered by 1000's to 1 globally.

Yeah it wasn't a very salient point. Cricket is a broad spectrum. To me county cricket doesn't interest me. 20/20 Cricket is interesting (But mainly Lancs v York if I'm honest) The Ashes is interesting (So long as it's still in the balance and a contest)

My main point is comparing Rugby League to Cricket in the sense of the volume of games you can play a season is wrong.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

1 hour ago, David Shepherd said:

My son and I were discussing a minor variation on this the other day.  We settled on the last 16 being magic weekend, in a big stadium in a big city, maybe even Wembley (and have the final elsewhere up north) and only drawing the first two names out of the hat an hour before kick off, with subsequent draws happing after each match has been played.

I like the idea of the last 16 being Magic Weekend. But I'd reverse the weekend being held up north and the final at Wembley. I don't think many people would travel to London for a 6th round Challenge cup fixture.

I've thought the same idea of the draw on the day of the match, but it's not feasible. You can't ask coaches and players to do a weeks worth of prep in a few short hours. Also its a bit pantomime/WWE-esqe. 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

1 hour ago, RP London said:

IMG have already said they want rid of the loop fixtures.. so replacing with the same games as "Challenge Cup group games" seems pointless and counter what we need to do (international/rep and starting the season later)

 

Agree 100% 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

13 minutes ago, lucky 7 said:

Make all the Super League clubs play away if they are drawn against a Championship or League 1 team

Possibly. Or if the Champ/One team stands to gain a greater share of gate receipts by playing at the SL club's ground maybe they can relinquish home advantage?

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

9 minutes ago, Gooleboy said:

I still think the SL clubs should enter in the last 32. An open draw and you take your chance. 

It's a step in the right direction. I don't like how right now winning just 3 games constitutes a "cup run" and results in you making the final. Especially as one of those games could be against semi-pro opposition and a non-contest.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

23 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Yes, an utter crackpot idea. Nobody in their right mind wants to see Wigan v Thornhill Trojans and nobody has the time or interest to say who can play and what is deemed a “first team player”. 

Ask Thornhill Trojans if they'd like to play Wigan? Aske them how big a deal that would be for their club? Ask them how many people from Thornhill would go to see that?

Who wants to see Hull KR beat Batley by 50 points because that's what just happened last week. All Hull KR have to do is beat Salford and one other team and they're in the Final. Play two games and you're in a final. Leigh Leopards after beating Wakefield have to beat Championship team York and one other team and they make the final. Too easy. 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

7 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Except none of that is true. 

The Challenge would go from simple knock-out competition to even simpler knock-out competition.

I know. "Crackpot idea" 

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:

We would kill to have this level of disinterest: https://www.espn.com/mlb/attendance

(Oakland is an outlier owing to the owners deliberately running the franchise into the ground this year so they can move it to LA)

Chicago population = 2.75 million.

Average attendance = 18,000.

Anyway this is a complete sidetrack. MLB is not fair comparison to Super League in any way shape or form. They are incredibly different sports in almost every way.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

12 minutes ago, JAG said:

All of those examples are of non-contact sports played by densely populated city based clubs in a country the size of a continent. Even Americans find baseball boring. Cricket by and large is boring. Most fans outside America only watch the NBA playoffs not the regular season. And the entire sporting culture in the USA is different to ours that's why we don't have half-time shows in the FA cup final that are bigger than the game itself, and how our sports aren't split into periods and quarters to sell advertising.

More importantly none of these sports you mentioned are at the risk of class action law suits for permanent brain injuries caused by merely playing the sport.  Rugby League has to do less with more. Fewer games with greater importance. A cup competition that requires professional teams to take a handicap against weaker opposition is the sport demonstrating it's commitment to player welfare while making the competition better to watch.

*more with less (I'm an Idiot : )

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

5 minutes ago, RP London said:

IMG are wanting to lose Loop Fixtures I cannot imagine adding Round Robin cup fixtures being the way forward TBH. equally going further down the pyramid do the amateur teams in it really want a round robins set of additional games, the jeopardy that they could knock out the "pro" teams is what makes the games interesting. That level already has this as many top amateur teams are better than the lower pro teams and players who want to keep their job are better than some that go pro etc.. I also, personally, like the knock out versions of it. 

Personal opinion but if you start handicapping teams as a rule then that would be my interest gone. No rule but make it a club choice of playing players or not as it is now for me.. if they make a mistake its a club mistake rather than the rule. You could be then weighting it totally against a super league club that has no depth in the squad where as in today's format they want to win the cup as they see it as their best chance for glory.. you are putting them into "relegation battle and no cup run" territory and I dont think that is wise. 

SL clubs coming into the competition earlier means more chance of them being knocked out by each other earlier. 

This is where we disagree (Which is fine)

I think a super league team being at greater odds of being knocked out of the cup is far more exciting, interesting and headline grabbing than seeing predictable scorelines. Also the handicap would only be in place for the first three rounds after that its all down who is the better team.

The gulf between Super League and the Championship/League One is huge. Anything to close that gap is welcome. It'll make SL teams earn and respect their place in the later stages and give Championship/League One teams a hope and a dream of an upset.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

Just now, JonM said:

Someone should tell the Americans. NBA teams play each team in their own conference 4 times. They then have best of 7 series in the play-offs with 3 rounds of play-offs before the final. Baseball teams play 13 times against their conference opponents and 6 or 7 times against each of the other teams in their league. England's men cricket team have 10 games against NZ in 2023.

All of those examples are of non-contact sports played by densely populated city based clubs in a country the size of a continent. Even Americans find baseball boring. Cricket by and large is boring. Most fans outside America only watch the NBA playoffs not the regular season. And the entire sporting culture in the USA is different to ours that's why we don't have half-time shows in the FA cup final that are bigger than the game itself, and how our sports aren't split into periods and quarters to sell advertising.

More importantly none of these sports you mentioned are at the risk of class action law suits for permanent brain injuries caused by merely playing the sport.  Rugby League has to do less with more. Fewer games with greater importance. A cup competition that requires professional teams to take a handicap against weaker opposition is the sport demonstrating it's commitment to player welfare while making the competition better to watch.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

20 minutes ago, Jughead said:

Crackpot ideas. Is the same person who used to post crackpot Super League threads about restructuring?

The same.

And this is even less intrusive than that minor league restructure. It's literally the same as what we have now only fairer and more exciting.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

26 minutes ago, JM2010 said:

Looking at the BBC viewing figures there still seems to be a lot of interest in it. 600 000 plus viewers for each game. 
Don’t really think the format needs to change. If the clubs and the RFL can promote the cup and build up the games then it can be made to feel a big deal. That’s what sky have done to the GF and now it’s taken over the CC final. 

That's encouraging and I appreciate what you're saying but it's hard to sell the prestige of a cup final when a team only needs win three games to get there and one of those could've have been a no contest against weak opposition. This year Hull KR only need to beat Salford and one other SL teams to get there, it's really not that big of a deal.

It's not that drastic of a change it's still a knock-out competition its just more evenly balanced for certain fixtures.

[How to Rejuvenate the Challenge Cup]

13 minutes ago, RP London said:

well its that time of year again... 

to be honest pretty much all of that has been debated before. 

round robin with all levels of teams in... going to be a problem to sell it, if you are going to handicap teams then it will take away from the prestige of the tournament.. to be fair teams like St Helens will handicap themselves against weaker opposition so you don't need the rule it will happen anyway and they will still stuff the weaker sides. There is nothing wrong with Super League clubs joining later, happens in pretty much every knock out comp, they just enter at least 1 round too late at the moment. 

Yes it needs a permanent date that has been said many times, whether it is August Bank Holiday (the last chance for people to get away in the school holidays) or not will, again, always be debated.. but get it a permanent fixture. 

Yes there should be no opt out.. though it is an invitational cup..  

Calling it an International cup may help, possibly wouldnt too, would it make a big difference? probably not at the moment. There is an international element to it for sure but branding wise its just The Challenge Cup not the English Challenge Cup or British Challenge Cup so not sure adding International to the name would add much, but I might be wrong. 

Pretty much all that (bar the name change) has been discussed before, pretty much every year, so i expect to see the same circuitous arguments over a group stage and when the Super League teams should join .

 

Hi, RP London. 

Thanks for reading. I have a few counter-counter points.

The problem we currently have is we have too many of the same fixtures in a season. A Round Robin defeats the purpose. Less is more. And with player welfare becoming more of an issue the less games a team play and the more a club delve into reserves and academies the better. 

I think a rule baked into the competition regarding a player handicap is a way forward. The exact number can be tinkered with, my idea of 8 and 12 were just an example. Yes, in most cases SL teams will rest players against lesser opposition but St Helens played Halifax with a near full strength team last week. Imagine the headlines if Saints had lost that game? Far-fetched I grant you, but within in the realm of possibility with the help of a handicap rule. 

I'd argue there needs to be more jeopardy for SL teams earlier in the competition in order to give the competition prestige. Hull KR this year will have to beat Salford and one other SL team to reach the final at Wembley. That's not a cup run, that's not a journey or a story to tell, it's nothing.

I'm glad you agree largely with the other points and thank you for your reply.

JAG