Maximus Decimus
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Posts posted by Maximus Decimus
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It is actually IMO counter productive and fails to achieve the desired aim. Moreover, it is wrong.
The team that finishes top of the League after playing each team home and away are the true and deserved champions. That is why it is called a League. That is why the winners are called champions / championship winners. A knockout competition is called a Cup and the winners are called Cup Winners.
The desired aim? Apparently this marketing idea was supposed to sustain interest throughout the season and extend it culminating in much higher attendances. Does it do that? Possibly/probably interest. No in terms of attendances IMO.
The system previously sustained interest by having relegation / promotion. Now if sustaining interest is the only criteria you would bring that back would you not. What interest have Quins, Bulls, Reds fans had. I recall a Cas / Wakey relegation dogfight attracting a huge attendance for those 2 teams. We have probably as many dead rubbers or more than we ever did.
In a true Championship every win mattered. Teams played at their best week in week out. Now we have teams at the top virtually throwing fixtures away by resting umpteen players and shortchanging fans. In the past as the regular season reached its climax the quality of rugby got better and better and crowds went off the scale. Do crowds go off the scale in the play offs? No The GF gets a crowd but then in past RL was always able to get crowds for finals so that is nothing new. Indeed, some would argue the marketing for the GF has damaged the Challenge Cup. In the old system you had teams at the bottom fighting for their lives, teams mid table fighting for premiership places and top teams for the championships until the bitter end.
1989/90 Wigan last 3 fixtures
Tue 10 Apr Leeds Home Won 16-12 24462
Fri 13 April St Helens Away Lost 10-35 17176
Mon 16 Apr Leigh Home Won 34-06 19641
1990/91 Wigan last 6 fixtures
Mon 1 April Oldham Away Won 10-04 7399
Thu 4 April St Helens Home Won 28-14 17580
Sun 7 April Castleford Home Won 24-04 13948
Tue 9 April Widnes Home Won 26-06 29763
Thu 11 April Bradford Northern Home Draw 18-18 19112
Sat 13 April Leeds Away Won 20-08 15313
Here we are in 2010 and fans are saying 14K for Wire having just won the CC and Saints in their final games at KR is a good crowd
Whatsmore some of those fictures were 2 or 3 in 7 days and far more walk up fans.So maybe we should stop swallowing rhwetoric and think for ourselves
Talk about selective figures.
What were Warrington's attendances when they challenged for the title during the same period?
You can't go back to the past because the world is different. We used to have a variety of trophies well supported, now we can barely sustain the Challenge Cup. The premiership would be rubbish.
As a sport the league wasn't that important for the vast majority of our history, the Challenge Cup always had far more prominence.
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Simple League System and a separate old style Premiership competition. However, if we have to have this ludicrous marketing gimmick which does not work then 8 is far too many. 5 or 6 maximum.
A ludicrous marketing gimmick that most fans are in favour of?
The playoffs are way better than the league system. The premiership was an after thought with no credibility. This way we end the season in the best possible way, like the Super Bowl, like the World Cup etc with the two best sides playing in front of 70,000 odd playing.
The system is fine and Wendall is being extremely presumptuous in thinking that we will end up with a repeat of the two games. It didn't happen last year and it probably won't happen the vast majority of times we have this system.
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Can't help but feel that despite being the team that finished higher in the table, it is Barrow who are disadvantaged by this tie. Admittedly they had it easy against Widnes but they have a 5 day turnaround compared to an 8. It might even it up what with home advantage but in theory it shouldn't be even.
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Wigan are the League Champions. Who will win the Premiership, hopefully Wigan because in this nonsensical marketing gimmick we tolerate I always hope the League Champions whomever they are also win at Old Trafford.
What a bore.
The playoffs are far superior to the league system.
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I'm loving the Playoffs. But then I adore everything about our game.
Hull is buzzing about this weekend. I really hope our game passes without incident supporter wise. Would love us to get to Grand Final (don't laugh) as I already have my ticket, even the wife is coming.
Hope the Wire do well too, as my bezzer is sitting next to me at Old Trafford.
19k have been sold which is good but it should have sold out a long time ago. It would have been easily if ST's were included.
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It's all to do with season tickets, nothing else.
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There aren't enough actual rugby threads on this forum so on the eve on the playoffs I thought I'd start a proper one.
It's probably the hardest to call season I can remember. Of the contenders,
The team that are league leaders haven't won a competition since 2002.
St Helens don't seem to be quite as on fire as they have been in previous seasons.
The team in 3rd have just emphatically won the Cup but have a voodoo against saints.
Current champions Leeds have only managed 4th and got outclassed in the Cup final against Wire.
My heart wants Wigan to win but I have a feeling about Wire at the moment. They have the form and now have performed in 2 big finals. I think the Saints voodoo is a matter of time and I actually think it will go tomorrow. Wigan, whilst the most consistent still don't seem to have the beating of the other big sides.
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What a stupid thing to put, Everyone else in the league has the same salary cap and still managed to perform better than you for a last few years, Halifax, Barrow, Leigh. So don't try and prop your argument up with that, Widnes 3 years ago threw everything at the league to try and be in super league, you didn't get in and suffered financially to the point where Ste O'conner came to the rescue.
You clearly haven't understood the point. A cap of 300k means that almost all clubs can make it. If you're spending the same as almost all the other clubs, how exactly are you supposed to show your superiority? It's a lottery based on which coach can get the best out of his 300k. Theoretically Wigan or Leeds could get relegated to the Championship and would stand no better chance of winning it on the pitch than Halifax would.
People who are calling for a return to P&R are arguing for something that we've never had before. P&R with a low enough salary cap that nearly all if not all the teams can spend up to it. This would mean that teams couldn't show their superiority as a club which is effectively Communism, reducing everybody to the same level.
If we went back to the normal system where there was room in the salary cap for difference then Widnes would inevitably finish higher in the league as we have the resources and the money to make a difference. This is what used to happen almost all the time with P&R.
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Regarding the P&R issue, why does rugby league feel it has to differ from practically every other major UK sport in this aspect?
How many clubs have sorted out their academy set ups, SL or Championship, as a result of licencing? How many clubs have sorted out their grounds as a result of licencing? So far I would say that it is the ages of grounds and inability to maximise revenue that has driven the likes of Saints to move forward. Which clubs are actually playing in stadiums that were built to win or keep a licence? Widnes, for example already had the ground and that was nothing to do with licencing,
Clubs like Workington and Oldham went bust because at the time all the money was polarised in SL and there was no safety net. Licencing has not changed this. Had P&R not been around Salford and Cas would have gone the same way as Workington and Oldham when they were relegated. Thanks to P&R those clubs fans stayed with them, the infrastructure they had could be kept in place and the teams kept to gether to try and reach to top level.
I don't see how subjective decision making by unknown officials using a process that is far from widely known or transparent can eb better than P&R. I'll go back again to my original question of why rugby league feels it has to be different to other major UK sports.
No other sport has the problems of RL.
We have a League with an average of 9,000 against one with an average of 2,000. The drop is massive. Relegation can mean the end of a club. We also don't have enough clubs viable in the lower divisions to compete in Super League. Whether or not the principle is right, you cannot promote a team like Batley, Dewsbury or Hunslet.
Outside of Football, where clubs go from a League averaging about 30,000 to one averaging about 20,000, what other major professional UK sports have P&R?
Oh yeh Rugby Union...
The owners and chairmen of English rugby's top clubs will meet with Rugby Football Union officials on Tuesday to discuss ring-fencing the Premiership.The principle of promotion and relegation is currently enshrined in an eight-year agreement which was thrashed out between the two parties and which began on July 1, but the deteriorating economic climate, and the fact that clubs are expected to make a collective loss of
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I thought the cap was
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Lobby does have some points when he talks about the troubles that Championship clubs face. I do think he has a point when he talks about Championship fans lack of interest.
However he doesn't have the answers, not even close. Promotion and relegation in it's last form was just as bad as this. People forget but it had been a shambles for almost 10 years.
1999 - Hunslet (no promotion)
2000 - Dewsbury (no promotion)
2001 - Widnes. Performed well year after and replaced Huddersfield.
2002 - Huddersfield, went year undefeated. Replaced Salford.
2003 - Salford, promoted comfortably. Halifax relegated after financial difficulty.
2004 - Leigh, replaced Castleford.
2005 - Castleford promoted, replaced Leigh after first season shambles. Widnes relegated to make way for Catalans.
2006 - Hull KR promoted, replaced Castleford.
2007 - Castleford replaced Salford.
2008 - Salford promoted through licensing but win Grand Final anyway.
So in 7 attempts where relegation occured, the relegated team came straight back up in 5 of the years. They usually had almost no competition.
My memory of this period was that it was usually 2 clubs fighting it out way ahead of everybody else, with 1 usually quite comfortably better than the other. Nowadays it is much closer.
Widnes get a lot of criticism for finishing 5th and being favourites for promotion but this is largely because of a low salary cap. The result has been a far more competitive Championship that is better quality. The situation is that if we brought back straight P & R the current salary cap would be massively unfair on a team like Widnes and would enable somebody with a relatively small amount of money to buy their way into Super League. This is not good for the game either. With the cap at
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That just suggests what a saddo you really are, anyone can copy n paste something said from another thread / board / whereever to try and fit it in with your ramblings You seem to live & breath WRLFC which is fine, but unhealthy if you have nothing else in life
, for your health, please try to let it go before it kills you, be happy, enjoy the SL RL 201299.9% of BRLFC followers understand only to well we dont fit the criterium of the franchise requirments, you repeatedly accuse me of not being one of them which amuses me no end, carry on & on & on if you so desire but your making yourself appear even more derainged & suffering a obsessive compulsive disorder as you convince yourself that everyone hates Widnes, everyone is jelous of Widnes, everyone wants to be Widnes etc
At the end of the day , Its just a RL message board where folk let off steam, swap stories, debate stats/results etc.
You take it wayyyyyyy to seriously.
I Will admit of being part of the problem for I enjoy baiting certain types, guess its a fault of my personallity.
Chill out as absofreakinloutly nothing on here has any relevence at Red Hall and will change nothing in the minds those in charge of our shared love BRITISH RUGBY LEAGUE.
HERE IS MY OLIVE BRANCH
I don't take this board seriously at all. It's easy to read something how you want to read it. Now going on prolonged rants and posting half in capitals and emoticons would give the impression that you do take the board seriously.
Olive branch taken.
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Do you need the Samartians help line (0800 im MD & suffer from my head being up my own rectum)
A quote from one of your own fans on another forum,
Look, I feel this issue needs to be put to bed once for all, or atleast the slight fued developing between small pockets of widnes and barrow supporters. I am fully commited Barrow fan and was at Craven Park last night. Firstly I would like to commend the Vikings on such a great lively and vocal away crowd they brought through to Cumbria; they contributed to a great atmosphere.These "Barrow clowns" you refer to are a minority and a rarity, I can assure you. I know for a fact that your club is in a much better positition to apply for SL next year than we are, as do the vast majority of our fans. I am also aware that our facilities, both internally and externally do not meet the level of facilities that you are available to at the Widnes ground... you speak with such an alarm it puts me under the assumption that you believe this news to the fans of Barrow Raiders.
It appears it was news to you Mick. That's why you've totally lost it to the extent of getting banned from forums, starting childish provocative threads about Widnes since it became clear that Barrow didn't have a chance any more.
Grow up or get help.
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No not jealous but realists
How exactly are you realists?
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No its the Widnes supporters arrogance, hoiler than thou, we are bigger n better then you lot attitute to the Championship that winds up many other clubs fans, Not Widnes RL the club.
It's only perceived arrogance that comes from your own jealousy. Widnes are clearly the best positioned Championship club to come up to Super League, that's not arrogance but fact. Fans of other Championship clubs try to make out like this isn't the case and Widnes fans point out where they are wrong.
You're the perfect example, you spent months trying to appear genuine yet all the time trying to undermine Widnes' position by spreading lies about the club even though they were proven wrong. When it became obvious that Widnes were in a much better position than your own club you totally lost the plot, as evidenced by your original post here. You're jealous of Widnes' position and that's the real reason you hate us.
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These suffer from exactly the same problem that the Challenge Cup does. I am surprised that all the games don't have a reduced price, it is
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What would happen if a team was awarded a licence next year but subsequently ended up in the relegation spots, would the 3rd bottom team be relegated?
Not suggesting for one second Widnes would be, its just one of those hypothetical what ifs that isn't beyond the realms of possibility.
I suspect they would a la Toulouse and Leigh last year.
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The original thread has now been bypassed and moved on again to who decides what ? Very unsatisfactory.
Best teams always . All i asked was to how the shoe ins Widnes +Toulouse will perform next season , Toulouse free of relegation have only gone through the motions ,relegated last year this not much. This current crop of Widnes players dont have a chance of super league contracts.
Are virtually 40 games in that league going to be dead rubbers. How good is that ?
It's nonsense that's why.
Toulouse aren't coming up, I'll guarantee you of that. If Widnes get the decision in March then players will be playing for Super League contracts. We have been playing many youngsters throughout the last year, so there will probably be quite a lot getting SL contracts and certainly playing for them. Aside from that the prospect of SL might mean that Widnes find recruitment easier in this off season.
If you look at the season in that way, far more than 40 games are dead rubbers. How about all those games that involve clubs that aren't going to get relegated but aren't in danger of threatening the playoffs?
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It's a sad fact that these games will almost definitely have lower crowds than their regular Super League games.
Even though they are mouthwatering clashes with some of them big derbies, the evidence from previous seasons suggests that they will be distinctly average crowds. Even Saints Wigan last year didn't sellout.
They should find a way to include them in season tickets because it's detrimental to the playoffs to see lower crowds than usual.
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a. Barrow need a ground and a larger yearly investment from their sugar daddy. i.e. Millions of pounds.
b. Halifax need a sugar daddy i.e. someone with a few million pounds to lavish on them.
When was the last post that you didn't mention the words 'sugar daddy?'
This post is the usual nonsense and still people don't quite get that's it's not all about on the pitch any more. If it was we would have a totally different situation. Widnes have played by the rules and are far ahead in all aspects except for on the pitch.
We saved our worst performance in over 4 years for yesterday. That's no reason to say we should suddenly be in Super League.
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Despite Wigan winning the league I think most people still think that the jury is out on them when it comes to big games.
Personally and I hate to say it, but I think Wire are the strongest team on their day and have the confidence of a victory at Wigan and battering the current champions in the Challenge Cup.
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I've been a couple of times this year having never been to Craven Park before.
It has a loveable faded charm about it that I quite liked, but see the point, it does need a lot of work doing and its not the sort of ground I'd get the wife to visit a 2nd time!
That said its a tough gig justifying a new ground on the off chance that the RFL are going to give you a new licence in 2015 given there track record for moving the goal posts and who knows when the next "enthusiastic millionaire" is going to pitch up and offer the chance of expansion thats to good to turn down pushing existing sides further down the pecking order.
When your talking major investment like grounds I'd be willing to make some concessions as part of the process of being awarded a licence if it were down to me to write the criteria. I'd want to see realistic plans with outline planning permissions in place or at the very least written assurances from local officials that they'd look favourably on the plans and to break this cycle existing Super League clubs have had of being able to whip out various artistic drawings whilst doing nothing I'd want a cash pledge/bond lodged with the RFL from the board of directors that would be lost if they failed to start work within the agreed timescales having been granted a licence.
It does have a charm in the same way that most of the old stadia do, but it's only for reasons of nostalgia. It's like going to the rugby used to be.
It's nice once in a while, but my over-riding feeling coming into the ground was that it showed exactly why we have licensing criteria in the first place. The place and places like it couldn't and shouldn't be hosting top level modern RL. The views are rubbish, the facilities are poor and it makes it difficult to bring new fans to the sport.
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Were not ready IMO
Plenty of non-widnes RL fans like our ground, be we know its past its sell by date.
We own our ground 100%
There are so interesting redevelopment plans around but if we are going ahead with this I dont know, We have a supporters fund in place and ran by very committed supporters to help raise some money to in part fund any new redevelopment, not sure how much has been raised.
Guess we have to wait and see.
I think the club are too honest. Most people I was with couldn't get over how cheap the food was, even if the quality's not the best.
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Apologies if I've missed reading about it somewhere, but does anybody know if Barrow are actually serious about applying for SL at some point? After last year's GF success I assumed the club might have pushed on with plans for the ground, as Craven Park clearly isn't up to SL standard. As far as I know nothing seems to be happening.
Today was my first visit to Craven Park and it's safe to say it's nowhere near Super League standard, so that is a massive barrier.
That said if they did have a better stadium they probably have potential because that stadium must stop a lot of fans from coming.
Do we need to change play off format?
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
You only like hard facts and figures that you can pick. 17k for a Championship decider, this year the Championship decider will get something like 70k at it.
What was the Super League average the last year that the league winners were crowned champions and we still had promotion and relegation.
What is it now?
Also what was the last attendance for the Premiership final between Saints and Wigan?