Maximus Decimus
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Posts posted by Maximus Decimus
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As I said on the match thread, what price he'll magically change his views?!
I'll give you 100-1. He's not the type to change his mind no matter how wrong he is.
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Well done Leeds.
Deserved it overall I reckon.
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My word you keep banging the same drum don't you?
As do you.
Salfords current ground is in the heart of one of the poorest areas in England. For years the club has been terrorised by idiots living near the ground resulting in boycotts from fans from other clubs who 'wont go near the place' - yes we are tarred with that brush.Salford's ground is better than Wakefield's. Wakefield have grown their crowds by almost double, yours have declined if anything.
So our Chairman who has never resorted to Administration or Liquidation to clear debts had the foresight to build a new ground many miles away (but still within the City) - yes he was thwarted many times - even John '2 Jags' Prescott held the club by the scruff of its neck for a couple of years - then the Irishman on the Board of RCD became under the microscope from the Inland Revenue resulting in more BIG losses for our esteemed leader plus of course a watering down of the eventual Stadium to be built.At last the Stadium build has started and in the Autumn the 62 week target commences on a site which can be seen by Millions every day rather than the urchins in Weaste. It is THE future for the club yet you Maximus D & others wish to deny the Chairmans rightful victory in relocating to a far better venue.
What a nice way to describe many of your current fans.
All the above is absolute nonsense and has nothing to do with whether Salford should be given a license or not. All clubs have issues and excuses and they have to live with them. Wakefield have theirs, Castleford too. You just have to live with it, I don't see how it makes any difference explaining the above.
I certainly don't want Salford to stay where they are and I want them to have a new stadium. They could be good for the game but a new stadium does not mean they will definitely become an overnight success, you have to prove more than that. Wire and Hull had been growing their crowds for some time before they moved in to their new homes. I was present in a record breaking SL crowd for Wire a couple of seasons earlier. In comparison you have no momentum. Their final average was 7,031 and went up to just under 9,889 an increase of 41%. A similar increase for Salford would see them get around 6,300. Even the same meteoric rise that Hull had (67%) would only see you averaging 7,400. Just as a side point, one of the clubs you could take the place of, average more than that playing in their decrepit stadium.
Not conclusive I accept but an indicator of how much else needs to be right rather than just a new stadium.
I would say that if the ground does not complete in the timescale then there should be a penalty on the club whereby they should play in CC for a season with the club which is demoted to take its place in SL.Seems a fair option to me to mollify those who believe Salford are pulling a fast one.
This is just ludicrous. Salford are nowhere near an important enough club that they would be given special dispensation like this. Even with a new stadium they will do well to get a license in my opinion. I'll accept that if they can guarantee it will be finished for the start of the 2012 season then they will be given a license. If it is not then they should have to wait as they easily have the poorest bid of the other clubs in the mix.
I don't believe for one second that Salford are pulling a fast one. I like John Wilkinson but the facts speak for themselves, the original date for completion of the stadium was 2003 for God's sake. You were largely given a license because of a new stadium that you will not have delivered in that licensing period. I've no doubt that you hope it will be completed in time for 2012 but if it is in anyway delayed, then you should be dropped until you have the new stadium in place. It's the fairest way.
It will then guarantee you a place at the next round of licensing.
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The current fiasco with Widnes being touted as a SL club despite appauling results on the field makes a mockery of licensing.
That aside, i'd certainly love to see P&R return. The drama of Wigan being close to facing the drop a few years back, and the fairy story promotions are something that IMHO are sorely missed.
We'd have had Barrow and now Fev up if we'd have kept P&R.
The charm of Rugby League is somewhat lost with licensing - its all about the money, which it shouldn't be and never was.
Wow, you've only come to this realisation now after what 3 seasons without P & R?
Fev would probably not be promoted as they still had minimum criteria.
I'll repeat what I said on the other thread, if you had a tiny bit of intelligence you'd see that Widnes' priorities would have been very different if we'd still have had promotion and relegation. You'd also see that doing well on with a salary cap of 300k indicates nothing as to how well you will do with a salary cap of
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You're a Widnes fan so ergo, biased.
I don't care if its Widens being touted or Dewsbury or Keighley.
Whats the point of RL players going out to win games if they know that there's no chance they'll get too play in SL?
Are you implying that the SL should only be full of financially viable clubs disregarding the results on the field?
Give over. Look at Blackpool in soccer. Its dreamland that they are in the Premiership. Sure they may go straight back down, but they've reaped the rewards for results on the field.
This isn't Monopoly.
Neither I, nor Widnes created the licensing system.
I would happily accept a return to promotion and relegation but it's not coming back any time soon.
What's the point in Widnes going all out to win the Championship but not meeting the off-field criteria for Super League?
You're continued attacks on Widnes are based on not understanding how licensing works or choosing to ignore it. There's no point continually going on about how Widnes should not be included based on something that the RFL aren't going to base it on.
If you had a tiny bit of intelligence you'd recognise that if we did still have promotion and relegation and on the field results did matter then the priorities of a club like Widnes would be very different.
Your a troll so ergo your opinion is pointless.
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It doesn't matter who wrote it, the fact that a side that finished 4th and lost in the semis last year, are currently languishing in 8th and lost the National Rail Cup Final makes an absolute mockery of the setup.
Period.
If Widnes go up, its a travesty for Rugby League.
You can produce 50 youth players per season, but if they're all rubbish it makes no difference.
To get a license in SL by what seems like by default is a disgraceful by the RFL.
Promote Widnes and they finish in the bottom 2 of SL for the next 3 years.
Genius idea - watch the crowds plummet.
Do you have any idea what the actual setup is and how it works?
If you did you'd see that it is more about off the field than on the field. That's why promoting teams like Barrow and Fev despite not meeting criteria to be a successful SL club would be the real farce. Featherstone's own chairman has even said that they aren't ready. You'd also see that the RFL set up a minimum on the field criteria that Widnes met, so that there was no point doing any more. If you had half a brain you'd also see that if we didn't have licensing then the make up and priorities of the league would be very different. The clubs very probably wouldn't have voted to reduce the salary cap as it naturally evens out the league.
How exactly does our squad with a salary cap of 300k indicate how we will do in a league where the salary cap is
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Wouldn't suprise me at all.
With a game scheduled at 6pm on a Friday it can be the only reason.
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:lol: I would agree if the licence bid came from The Willows addrress..................but it won't.As `Father Ted' succinctly put on another thread - the RFL will not have Sale take over the 'Rugby' Franchise in Manchester - Salford have to be in the next 14 or we are handing over the City to the Yawnion boys.
You're probably right about what the RFL will do and why but that doesn't make it right.
Salford are very fortunate, they are easily the worst heartland club to have been a regular fixture since Super League began. However, because of the promise of a new stadium (that they used to get themselves a license in 2008 as well) and because of the failure of Rugby League in places like Oldham and Swinton they look set to be a permanent fixture in Super League.
It's a sure sign that a club has a poor bid when it is using scaremongering tactics. We had it last time with Celtic Crusaders and how Samuels wouldn't wait and we would miss a golden opportunity. Now we are apparently going to lose a whole region to Union if Salford are left out. Nothing to do with the merits of their own bid, just what might happen if they are left out.
When Wakefield, a club that also have an awful stadium yet have improved immeasurably on and off the field, are left out for another club that hasn't but is using the 'potential' card, it will be another sad day for RL. The RFL should judge each club on their individual merits and if Salford's stadium is in anyway delayed, they should be left out and told to reapply in 2015 with the new stadium.
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Widnes had the same stadium last time they were in the SL and Fax have a shiny new stand from the last time they were in the SL.
'New stadia,' doesn't have to mean new stadia since they were last in the league.
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Widnes are making a good job of not being one of the best 6 clubs in the championship you clown.
What an insightful post.
1) I suggest you look up the difference between a club and a team.
2) I don't know how you've missed this but I suggest you find out about licensing and how it replaced traditional promotion and relegation.
3) Learn some manners.
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Widnes yes in the short term and Fax maybe also in the short term. The question for me is what do they do for RL in the long term. Barrow and Leigh definitely not.
The problem for the RFL as they seek to grow the sport, though grow maybe an over ambitious statement, perhaps maintain might be a better view, is that the game as a limited geograpical spread at elite level. This limited spread makes it less attractive to sponsors and also allows the national media to give it limited exposure. Whether the latter is fair is something that can be debated however, the limited geographical spread is a strong justification and one that is factually correct.
The last 40 years have seen the erosion of RL within the old Lancashire boundaries and in particular around Manchester. A quick look at the league tables show that Swinton, Rochdale and Oldham are virtually dead. Salford have been on life support for a number of years. If RL can not maintain a strong thriving presence in Manchester then it really is signally the fact that it will never be a national sport.
This is a perfect example of what I was talking about. The idea that whoever comes up has to add something to the game or be part of a long term plan.
Licensing wasn't an abandonment of total promotion and relegation or an admittance that we now had the 14 strongest clubs in the top flight. It was about stability and giving clubs a fair chance over 3 years. Every 3 years it reviews those 14 strongest clubs based on an understanding that the strongest top flight possible is what is best for rugby league. That of course includes expansion clubs but all Widnes or any other club need to do is indicate that they will do a better job than one of the clubs currently in that 14. The long term is for the RFL to sort out not to burden those clubs wishing to fairly be given their chance where other clubs through their good fortune, have been given theirs.
The Salford issue is an entirely separate one but the question exists how many failing clubs do we continue to prop up in Super League purely on the bounds of a geographical ideal? If we include Salford in this that is 3 clubs that are in Super League purely for their location alone, where do you draw the line?
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Carney is of course correct, the 14 strongest clubs should be in Super League.
However I don't like this presumption that the 14 strongest clubs are already in Super League and that the RFL may have cocked up. This is far from the case. The reality is that there are approximately 4 or 5 clubs in Super League that could be replaced by 3 or 4 in the Championship that would do a similar if not better job than those in Super League. It is only timing and one-off games that has determined which of the clubs are in which division. If licensing had occured in 2005, Widnes and Leigh would be in and Hull KR would not.
Widnes, Fax, Barrow and Leigh would all do as good a job as Salford or Wakey and some would do better. The RFL in guaranteeing a place to a Championship club made no gamble, there was always going to be at least one Super League club that could be interchanged for a Championship club without weakening Super League in the slightest.
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There is constant baiting of Salford fans over the issue of their stadium, and most of it by Widnes fans.
I just find it a little rich that they should criticise another club for not developing their facilities when they themselves only have such a lovely stadium because their local council built it and the EU funded it.
You almost make it sound like the club was doing the council a favour. Obviously it was the other way round; a club with no money selling it's only asset to the council who build them a lovely new stadium, and using the money to pay off its debts. That is what happened in the late 1990's, wasn't it?
Just to be clear on this, I think it's fantastic that you have a local authority that recognises your role and position within the local comunity and does something to support the club. Many other clubs would love to have that level of support. And I think Widnes would make a welcome addition to SL. But I dont like the attacks on other clubs from some of your fans.
The problem with Salford is that they have nothing else aside from a potential stadium.
On every other front they are easily the worst heartland club in Super League yet the stadium and the stadium alone could get them another 3 years.
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On a separate point, if Halifax get a crowd of 4,705 for their final game against Batley then they will have made the 2,500 average. Surely something worth marketing for?
Barrow need 8,755.
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No, I thought they should have been in last time.
I'd also like to see Barrow in, for reasons outlined earlier, sadly two clubs going up isn't an option due to TV money unless something unforeseen happens to an existing clubs as per Parksiders runners and riders post. Even then Cumbria doesn't seem to feature on the RFL's radar, mustn't be glamourous enough!
If a Cumbrian club could guarantee 7,000 in a decent stadium then I'd say have them in.
At the moment they can't so they aren't viable.
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Just a little question about the Widnes fans' baiting Salford for their lack of a new stadium. Didn't Halton Council build (with EU money) your ground for you? While your club was going bust (again) spunking money up the wall on ###### players.
Nonsense. We made a profit in Super League. We went bust trying to get back into Super League after we'd been relegated, we took a gamble that being in Super League would be more beneficial to gaining a Super League license than not being in Super League. This was of course true.
The top point is irrelevant. I like Salford and I hope they get their new stadium, I really do. They are the last RL bastion of that area and it would be terrible for the game if they were lost to the Championship forever. However...
When it comes to licensing they are the weakest heartland club by some distance. They were awarded a license last time based purely on this new stadium and it won't have been delivered until the next round of licensing. I'm no expert on the process but I have heard enough guarantees that have fallen through that I think any club should need the stadium in place before they can use it in their applications.
Salford look set to get a license (again) purely on the potential of a new stadium and I think this is wrong. Castleford have better crowds than any of those clubs being touted to go down or come up and have done for some time. Wakefield used to be an atrocious club, yet they sorted out their playing side of things, their youth and managed to double their crowds at the worst stadium in Super League.
In comparison to this Salford have done nothing. Their crowds are still as poor as they were 10 years ago, their team has done nothing in the last 2 years, I never hear anything from their youth but as somebody involved in youth RL in the area, they have few if any amateur clubs at that level.
It will of course be very hard (though not impossible) for the RFL to leave Salford out if they do have the stadium half built. However if they don't then they should spend some time in the Championship. If the stadium is so certain to be built they can build it there and then reapply when they have it. Without a new stadium for any of the 3 clubs being touted, Salford are by far the worst candidate.
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Until very recently we regularly made the final (like in 2007) and have two cup wins and a final under our belt in the northern rail cup competition too.
We actually finished higher than 5th last year.
Just to get the actual figures regarding Barrow and their surge for glory,
Barrow 2010 average: 1,805 (2,280) Down 20.8%
Widnes 2010 average: 3,061 (3,808) Down 19.7%
So from a much higher base Widnes' crowds have actually fallen less than Barrow's. So Mick's incessant insistence that Widnes' are on a downward spiral compared to Barrow's upwards curve is incorrect.
Just because Barrow are in Cumbria means nothing. I remember they were in Cumbria the last few times they were in the top flight and I don't recall anything special then. Also Workington were the only club in Cumbria when they were in Super League and they only got crowds around 2,000. Granted they were a poor side but it doesn't change this fact.
Certain posters are trying to play the geography card simply because they have nothing else. We heard it all last time with Celtic Crusaders about how they had a massive geographical area from which to draw support. We have licensing for a reason, Barrow should spend the next 3 years getting themselves in a place where they can justify their inclusion through concrete things not some useless rhetoric.
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The only thing I have against Widnes is that, it appears, that they got the one trophy and offloaded any high earners , for me a shoe in for SL should be a team challenging every season, it looks like they've sat back on their one 'tick'
apart from that, they have everything else set, stadium, fan base, youth set-up etc.
Would love to see Featherstone in serious contention but a. we haven't qualified to apply b. crowds don't hit 2,500 every week (they have done this year...) and c. the stadium isn't complete (or started yet)
We didn't actually do this. Don't forget the cap went down to 300k this year. It's easy to look at our league position and think this is the case but we had probably as competitive a side this year as last. We've had major issues this year such as losing a head coach for much of it and losing key players like a captain and your two starting props. Despite this we still haven't had what you would call a beating.
People seem to be making the mistake of thinking that we aimed to finish where we have this year.
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As it stands (today) Widnes do have a better Stadium but its rented and you dont get 100% of any connsessions sold & your landlord holds the keys.
Barrow & Fev own their grounds and the land it sits on and Fev even own a much bigger tract of land in the surrounding area, both keep any monies generated & own the keys and titles.
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Today Widnes have the best crowds but they are falling by a bigger margin than the rest & going from the various Widnes supporters forums many are saying that (( if )) they dont get this franchise they will stop going completely......which i find STAGGERING as we all live with this reality every season and dont threaten to quit.....OMG are they Widnes supporters or just top class RL fans.
Barrow have a big UNOPPOSED area / population to draw support from , so have the bigger potential in drawing in both new and previous fans back to the club, We have increased our support in the last 4 seasons but have hit the wall this season with next to no visiting fans & a few less homers as they say whats the point "its a closed shop"
Both Barrow & Fev have re-development plans but can not implement these plans on Championship finances & crowds.
Half the current SL sides have a 10 yrs plus on the gravy train yet have not managed to achieve this, yet the RL expect championship clubs to be able to do this on a TENTH of the monies the SL sides recieve ?????
Which mean prudent clus get penilized for keeping solvent but not rich enough to pay for all these newer developments, should be go into massive DEBT TO ACHIEVE THESE REQUIREMENTS then dont get excepted only to bankrupt ourselves for trying ?????????
Today Widnes have the best yoof structure, but again that can be fixed almost overnight, especially in Furness due to no other quaility competing clubs, We are really struggling this term with our Reserve & yoof sides because its only our 2nd year in the championship and we have had to increase the other town player numbers to be competitive enough to win the chance of entering the great franchise race, we came up with a side full of locals, half left to join Wukkie as they would not get into todays team as we had to win somthing first, but next season we WILL HAVE A ACADEMY SIDE.
we have tons of kids at haven & wukkie academys who would love to play for their home town club instead of the 3.5 hour round trips up the coast 3 times per week at their parents expence.
If we were a SL club the best of the west cumbrian yoof would then travel down to us to be the best in the area, so we could draw all the talent from the whole of Cumbria.
We have SEVERAL Barrow kids at Saints, Wire, Leeds who could very easily be loaned out to Us as we establish ourselves in the SL & THE OTHER CUMBRIAN SL kids would probably do likewise to gain valuable experience.
Leigh, Fax & Widnes have all previous with SL and it wasnt pretty, Give others a chance.
Sorry for the ramble but i was multi tasking as im typing this.
What Mick fails to point out is that despite winning the league Barrows crowds have fallen percentage wise around the same if not more than Widnes'.
Doesn't quite fit with the 'Barrow are on the up and Widnes are on a spiral' story that he tries to portray here.
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For the record I meant averages. Talking about individual crowds is useless, heck I'm sure even Salford or Quins could drag a big crowd out from somewhere in the distant past.
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Why does your opinion deserve it's own thread?
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Well, instead of just jumping on the bandwagon, why not point out what Widnes have to offer that Barrow or Fax dont?
Cos i cant see anything.
You must be blind then.
How about better crowds, better stadium and better youth development for a start.
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Right i see what you mean now.
These should have been announced at the same time as they announced a club would have to get to the GF or win the NRC.
Yes they should have been, they were announced way way in advance.
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Saints 26 Leeds 14 Attendance: 14100.
At least one Super League club to lose licence in 2011
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
You spoke of 'the urchins in Weaste' without differentiating or suggesting that there are any other type of people in Weaste. Maybe you need to be a bit clearer in future.
Unfortunately for you when you are dealing with facts, lies can be easily disproven. The Wire didn't get a crowd of 3,500 in their last 5 seasons at Wilderspool. Also if you look at their averages of the last few years you can see the upward trend culminating in their biggest SL average in the year before they moved to the HJ,
1998