Exiled Wiganer
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Posts posted by Exiled Wiganer
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I would have written 26 years if I had done the maths correctly - as the league winners also won the GF, that possibly counts double, making it 19 LLS/GF/titles. Now, it’s possible to argue with all of that, and It’s probably only me suggesting they have been dominant over 26(!) years.
This thread though is whether it’s boring - I think only the OP and I think it’s boring. Toprov is loving it and would love it to be the era that lasts 1,000 years. For those that are relaxed about it, how many more years before it either becomes boring or counts as dominance?
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Presumably we can buy a centre? For now, even Thornley would be useful. I would also play Halsall there again, you never know. After the semi, we should be able to experiment with the side without fear of relegation or pressure of winning anything, so an ideal chance for Peet to plan for the future. It’s a shame KPP is out, as he has all the attributes to be a great player.
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1 hour ago, Davo5 said:
Being there or there abouts is hardly being dominant though,consistent yes.
The fact that winning the comp is decided by whoever wins the GF means that yes Leeds we’re dominant for a period just as Saints are now,but reaching the playoffs every year hardly means they have been dominant for 25 yrs now does it.
One man’s dominance is another man’s shrug of the shoulders, of course. As I mentioned above - how many years before it counts as dominance and, if it does then count, would it be boring? Incidentally, my test here was LLS and GF wins. Leeds’ ability to win GFs was remarkable, but week in, week out Saints won far more games. So, you could argue strongly that Saints were dominant week by week, but Leeds were great when it had to be, which is another form of dominance.
If no one else is bored by it now, we can come back to it next year or the year after, because it isn’t going to change.
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3 hours ago, Dunbar said:
I think you are overstating this 25 year dominance.
When Super League started, Saints won 4 of the first 7 titles.
They have won the last 3.
In between these two bookends, Saints won 2 titles in 16 years. That really isn't 25 years of dominance.
That’s fair - it’s still 17 of LLS and GF wins by my reckoning. If it doesn’t count as dominance yet by some measure, we can come back to this subject in 2024 and ask the same question, by which time it’s likely to be 20+. In a way it’s irrelevant that it’s Saints - it could be anyone - how much dominance is too much dominance?
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32 minutes ago, meast said:
Incidentally, I watched the Giants v Saints scholarship game last night, and despite the Giants being quite a skilful side, they were blown away by a Saints side who had some absolute monsters playing for them, some of them looked like 16 yr. olds in 30 yr. old bodies, they were massive and just literally swept their way through the Giants to rack up a 44-0 lead before the hour, to be fair, we did mount a comeback in the last 12 minutes to make it a relatively respectable 16-44.
But if that's what Saints are producing at 15,16 & 17 then god help us
Taking this and your other post “these things don’t go in cycles” - they have been dominant for the last 25 years, save only for Leeds’ freakish run. They don’t go in cycles in Scottish, French or German football. It has been over 50 years since we last beat the Aussies, Things don’t end just because they have gone on a long time.
The crushing strength in depth of the next generation doesn’t surprise me in the least. Look at the best young players, and most of them play for Saints - even where talent emerges elsewhere it usually fails to kick on or leaves these shores - you could have built a team around Pryce but it looks like the Aussie vultures have come calling. I think it’ll be a long long time before anyone gets even close. If I were a betting man, I would put money on Saints winning 6 in a row, having a freakish defeat and then going on another long run.
What’s interesting is that “you’ve got no problem” with it. Which seems to be the consensus on here - aside from the OP and me very few are bored by it: and no Saints fans are bored of course - how could they be when the most jeopardy they face each year is whether their reserves can beat a full strength SL side.
There are many tangents on this thread, but it would be interesting to know after how many more years of domination it would take to become boring for people?
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13 minutes ago, Dunbar said:
Here's an idea seeing as though we are on a Rugby League site.
You tell me which of the 'several' Saints tries Young was at fault for and I promise I won't mention it again.
https://www.skysports.com/rugby-league/st-helens-vs-huddersfield/50466
NO!!!! Don’t use facts! Sheer madness - he’s from the Moskva makes a beautiful submarine school of spin. This will not end well.
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30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:
How is what i've said destroying Wigan's past - its the reality of how things were during that period.
They had more money than anyone else with no salary cap, they had a full time professional squad when most others were part time and they went out and bought most of the top players around that time, and on the back of that they achieved utter dominance over the league & cup.
I also don't think its unreasonable to suggest that without those things in their favour they wouldn't have had the same level of dominance. It certainly came to an abrupt end at the start of SL when they suddenly had 11 other full time professional teams to compete against every week and a SC that stopped them from buying up any player they wanted.
I didn’t mean to contradict you. I think it is remarkable the spin you put on everything. You are the very definition of a super fan. I don’t know what any of us would do if you ever found a reason to criticise the MIGHTY SAINTS!
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13 minutes ago, Moove said:
I must have missed Toppy becoming our elected representative. Good to hear you love us though
Oddly enough, I think I am just about achieving the impossible.
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I am hoping Wigan use the next 6 matches to look at the benefits of a running 9. I would like to see Cust and O’Neill play there (and NOT Shorrocks), with a licence to look up and run if it’s on. Looking ahead to ‘24 and a potential title challenge, this is a vital period for us, as it will be much harder to be competing by then with Powell still slowing everything down.
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30 minutes ago, Saint Toppy said:
Which part exactly ?
The full time Wigan and part time everyone else part, the wigan youngsters getting full time contracts while other clubs youngsters had jobs part, or the Wigan buying all the top players at the other clubs part ?
Leeds were the only other club that went full time during that period of Wigan dominance but made a pretty shambolic effort of it, not really being any better than the part-timers.
Wigan would not have been as dominant as they were during that period without their unrestricted buying power & salaries and them being able to train full time. Its no coincidence that their dominance ended with the advent of SL and there being a much more level playing field.
Toprov - we would expect nothing less of you. Not only are your Saints more successful - indeed having the longest period of dominance the game has ever known. But it is better success than ever before. And not only are you laying waste to Wigan now, but Wigan's past must be destroyed along the way. Saints fans - it's impossible not to love them.
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1 hour ago, Dave T said:
I think this is a good example of a slightly negative outlook as standard in RL and our insecurities leading us to always be looking for perfection, a world full of rainbows and unicorns and the like.
I don't mind a comp where Empires can be built and teams become dominant. I sometimes think comps where teams go from top to bottom or bottom to top overnight with the help of ott rules a little shallow, but I do understand the beuty of everyone having hope.
I've no issue with Saints being dominant and them being favourites for everything. That gives everyone else something to aim for.
I also don't think we need to be to harsh on the other clubs, this is sport, things don't always work. Leeds were tipped for good things this year by many, but sport can be unpredictable.
IMHO there is more than enough to enjoy across the leagues. In SL I am interested to see if anyone can topple Saints in a one-off, which is what it takes, and the stories at the likes of Leeds, Wire, Hull KR, Catalans, Toulouse etc are fascinating. I'm also enjoying seeing an improving Hudds and what they can do under Watson.
I think there is plenty to enjoy, we should be more open to doing so.
I get that we follow a fascinating game, I am simply intrigued as to the point at which total domination and pretty much foregone conclusions for decades becomes boring. My view won’t change anything, but I am interested in why, say, Wigan’s domination over a shorter period should have been viewed as Bad for the Game, whereas Saints’ domination over a far longer period passes pretty much without comment. Indeed, this is the only thread I can remember on here which even touches on the subject. As I set out above, I believe that, by 2024 Wigan might be in a position to challenge, but even that might not happen. If 4 in a row is fine, is 5, is 6, is 10?
I don’t of course expect any Saints fan to see this state of affairs as anything other than fantastic. Indeed, they are now so far ahead they can field reserves when they feel like it (I wonder how fair that is for the competition - god forbid the 2 points gifted to Cas will be the difference in the relegation race at the end of the year...), which is indicative of their appraisal of the opposition.
There seems very few of us who are “concerned” about never ending dominance this year, but I think this will be worth pinning for years to come.
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25 minutes ago, FearTheVee said:
What claptrap.
Bless you mate. Don’t worry, it will end and sooner than you seem to think.
If I may say, mate, you have a slightly odd patronising manner. I get that you draw a lot of your self worth from following Saints - good on you. You don’t need to project onto others, though, just get your full replica kit on and re-watch all your triumphs and you’ll feel fine.
I don’t worry in the slightest - I think it’s a shame that the winners are and will be a foregone conclusion for the foreseeable future, and I suppose that holds us back as a game. It’s still a privilege and a pleasure to watch the greatest game, even at the lower levels that everyone else plays them. Oh, and we can come back to this when Penrith again choose to play a preseason friendly in 2023 instead of coming over here.
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2 hours ago, Fevrover said:
If it isn't Saints dominating it would only be another team like Wigan and Leeds in past years.
Wigan dominated over 25 years ago.
48 minutes ago, Hughsehhh said:Of course hypothetical, but yes, I think they'd be in that mix. They're operating at a level so far above the rest currently in SL, genuine competition would only improve them further. Look how good they are defensively currently, NRL levels
Maybe, but isn’t that a different point entirely from is their never ending dominance boring? Unless you agree it’s so uncompetitive the only useful comparison is with the NRL I suppose. Making them Bayern/PSG and the Champions League. Ironically, despite decades of success, they lack the pulling power of Leeds and Wigan and so can’t get any NRL team to play them.
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Just took a quick look at the stats for SL - Saints have won the LLS and GF 17 times. Leeds, Bradford and Wigan have each won them around half as often, and none of them show even the remotest signs of winning this year or next. Other clubs have won the LLS once. By the end of 23, Saints are likely (if they can be bothered to win the LLS) to have 21 titles to their name. Given how far they are ahead, and their trajectory, there is no end in sight even beyond that. It will be interesting to revive this thread in a couple of years, to see whether more people are sick of it by then.
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6 sounds like par for the course, but 8 would not have been harsh. Powell is the dirtiest player at the club, no question. A grub.
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12 minutes ago, The Future is League said:
The other teams need to raise their standards. Its as simple as that
That is answering a different question, though. The question here is - is it boring? I would argue that Saints’ games are generally very dull, and there is very little excitement about the outcome of the season. Saints will win the Cup and the GF, and the LLS if they can be bothered. And will do the same next year.
However, we watch the greatest game of all, and there are lots of interesting games between the other 11 teams. Neither FC nor WIre would give Saints much trouble, but when they played each other it was a good game. Seeing Field in action hasn’t been boring in the slightest. Having got used to the idea that we have 11 also fans, there is joy to be had in the little things. Basically, we have a Championship with 2 dozen teams in it.
So, yes, it’s boring and likely to be boring for a long time. But we still have a great game to watch.
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6 hours ago, dkw said:
Classic! If I knew how I would post a selfie too.
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Saints naming a weakened squad is actually a reflection on the extent of their dominance.
What intrigues me is that, looking over the last 25 years, Saints have been far far away better than Wigan every year, aside from Maguire’s and KC’s reigns. And yet the perception is still Bad Wigan’s Success Must be Stopped! Their success - often under Woolf being efficient rather than as spectacular as they could be (and thank God, because if they went full on they would put 50 past most teams most weeks). And yet 1) they have pulled off the trick of fooling Wiganers into thinking the derby is still a contest and 2) if here is representative, they have a universally fawning set of neutral fans - though I exempt some Wire fans in this. You’d never need a SDL, because the likes of DKW instinctively snuff out opposition at birth. That is some trick to pull off.
Whereas, it looks pretty much certain that Saints will win the big prizes and the LLS if they can be bothered, for 4 in a row. With no end in sight - from Wigan’s perspective, we could possibly be competitive in 24, Leeds may need even longer (I don’t follow them closely enough). To pull off crushing dominance year after year, decade after decade, and still give the pretence of being one of the gang is some achievement.
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3 minutes ago, Dunbar said:
I do understand the point that players like (Bailey) Hodgson, Dom Young and Harry Rushton going to the NRL doesn't do a massive amount for English Rugby League but I think there are several factors to consider here.
1. With just 3 youngsters at the moment and no signs that others will follow in greater numbers, it is hardly a player drain at this stage (this is a reduced negative rather than a positive of course).
2. Talented young rugby players these days are very aware of where the potential pay packets can come from and scouts/agents will be all over them. I would much rather they go to the NRL than Union for pretty clear reasons.
3. They may not spend their entire career over there and so we could see some very good players return to the British game.
4. If these players help England do well internationally then it has a very positive effect on the profile of the sport and player numbers, viewers etc. so they could benefit the British game without even playing here.
Maybe. And of course this is a thread for the 100 or so British NRL fanatics who will notice him. It would be, in my view, far better for the game as a whole and especially the British game, for these players to be strutting their stuff on Sky, BBC or Channel 4.
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I know I am labouring the point but how is Rushton being picked good for British RL? Beyond the 100 or so British NRL fanatics his progress or lack of it will be unknown over here. He is playing in a competition opposed to playing internationals, so even if he is very good the likelihood of anyone over here actually being aware of it is vanishingly slim.
That said, on an individual basis, he can be proud of himself.
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11 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:
I know i am biased to a certain extent. I thought there was an early guilty plea system. I would have thought if that was the case then he could use the wakey game as one of the suspensions. Surely better to get a game out of the way thats not important and his absence would have no effect on the result (appart from benefiting the possible safe gaurd of opposition players)
As Wigan instantly condemned the tackle, it would be right for them to apply their own discipline. We stood someone down for being late to training - this is much worse:
I am not holding my breath, though, as we didn’t even sack Flower.
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5 minutes ago, Agbrigg said:
Yes but this system allows him to play on Monday I believe . With such a serious charge pending thats scandolous in my opinion and shows a huge fault in the disiplinary process.
It is wrong and I would be delighted if Wigan stepped him down. He is and has been for a long time our dirtiest player.
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5 minutes ago, leytherz said:
adrian lam says hello,hows your day going
All good here - glorious weather down south. He is a good man - who knows, but for Field and French getting injured last year he might still be in charge. He also coached a side that beat Saints once.
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1 hour ago, Damien said:
It's not that bad.
It will be 2 wins in 16 by September. The only way we will even get close to winning this year or next, is if they field their reserves because of a Cup final. We don’t play them anywhere near the Cup final this year, so that’s not going to happen.
It is like watching GB - for 20 odd years they have had nothing to fear from us, save when Maguire was in charge. In the interviews afterwards you could tell they knew that they would seat us aside once we had had a bit of a dig.
We have a good school system, we have excellent junior clubs, good scouts and enough money to be far better, and reach a point where we go into these games as favourites and they have to lift their game. If we get everything right we might be in that position by 2024, but honestly it could be 10 years before it happens. The only good thing to come out of yesterday was Peet’s acknowledgment that beating Saints has to be the result of working harder all day every day - as we have seen, they could play with 2 forwards and beat us at the moment,
I want to be alive long enough to reach a point at which if Saints win it’s a surprise. I think Peet might be able to move us forward - at least he seems to realise the hole we are in.
Saints domination - boring?
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
I can change my own parameters whenever I feel like it. Out of interest, how many more years would it take either to count as dominance, or become boring, or is it too early to tell?