Dave T
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Posts posted by Dave T
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2 hours ago, turn it in said:
Sorry but I don’t agree with that statement.
maybe 30-40 years ago or even 20 years ago I would have agreed with you but today’s modern day 21st century stadiums in the north equally hold the same appeal if not more than Wembley currently does.
also the cities that these iconic stadiums are located in like Liverpool, Manchester and Newcastle etc are/have getting hundreds of millions spent on them to improve transport, accommodation, tourist attractions and shopping facilities etc.
wembley and London just aren’t the same attraction and appealing as a couple of decades ago and more English cities are catching up.
The evidence just doesn't support this.
Didn't you see Elland Road deliver the worst Magic ever? Anfield not much better.
Manchester has the GF. Newcastle has Magic. We saw when we played at Spurs, a great new ground, it wasn't as big a draw as Wembley and deliverd a low crowd for a Wigan final.
Moving to a standard football ground would be a terrible move imo.
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6 hours ago, Martyn Sadler said:
The real problem he faces is not the low profile of the club as it currently stands, but the low profile of the game in general and Super League in particular.
When we refer to profile of SL being low, what do you mean?
Due to the new tv deal last year there are more eyeballs on SL than ever in its history.
It may not be anywhere near where we believe it should be, but SL does have a higher level of awareness than years ago when London did better.
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I dont think Wembley is a must at all. But it would be a hugely negative step to play it in the North of England.
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Just now, turn it in said:
If crowds below 60k become a regular thing how long would you persist with Wembley?
Why is Northern England the next option?
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19 minutes ago, turn it in said:
If we are getting crowds between 50k-60k for the challenge cup final then there’s 3-4 stadiums in the north that could easily host it.
60k at Wembley is unlikely to translate to 60k in the North of England.
If you move from Wembley you have to stay in prestigious places like Cardiff, Edinburgh etc.
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2 hours ago, sam4731 said:
I think a start should have been an expanded WCC. Doubters will point to the 1997 disaster but it doesn't have to be 12 SL and 17 NRL teams all competing. A 6 or 8 team, 3 week competition would be great.
Oh but what about the World Club Series disaster too? That was 2 friendlies and the WCC match.
This is the try something once, then give up mentality that I'm talking about.
The WCS was essentially a test. It worked well. Decent crowds and English teams competitive.
Sacked off.
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26 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
Anyway, to bring it back to attendances.
60k looking likely or unlikely for the Challenge Cup final?
9 minutes ago, Toby Chopra said:If the ticket websites are accurate, it looks like we're going to fall a bit short. Mid to high fifties, unless a bunch of people make a last minute decision to go. Payday this coming Friday? (Is that still a thing?)
7.5k remaining on the RFL website (out of c70k open)
Unknowns are what are not on that site and sitting with other clubs, community clubs, partners, hospitality etc.
So max of 62k sold so far, probably a good few k less.
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16 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:
To use a real estate analogy, this is similar to land banking.
Occupying territory now to avoid other similar providers from taking advantage of the opportunity.
It will be another large scale tournament which will further Rugby Union’s claim as the premier code of Rugby.
I agree with your frustration, not pushing ahead with a meaningful WCS is a big missed opportunity imo, but I'm less worried about the fact RU are doing it point. Where my frustration sits is that they will probably do a decent job of it and it will be another thing where you think with a bit of focus, effort and investment, we could have had similar.
So whilst I don't think we need to compare directly with Union, we absolutely can be frustrated with the lack of growth in this area.
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2 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
Oh no, there's going to be a tournament between teams no one cares about playing in places where no one will watch them.
Whatever is rugby league to do.
Hang on, do you do the marketing for RL tournaments?
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55 minutes ago, Gerrumonside ref said:
There’s a prestige of playing at Wembley in a competition where you are retracing the footsteps of history that would be lost forever.
I think we are treading a fine line on this one tbh.
I think there is a good argument that Wembley is as harmful for the comp as it is a benefit. I've long advocated rotating the final - Cardiff, Edinburgh and Wembley, but I do accept the risk of killing it off. As we've seen, we are a sport that will fall back to Elland Road for Magic Weekend, or Headingley for an Ashes Test.
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6 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
This is part of the broader IMG process but our clubs need to broaden their appeal, demographically and geographically. Take football (and I'll use LUFC and SUFC as an example because I know them) but there are loads of flags and groups for "X-shire Whites" for example, often nowhere near Leeds. SUFC have this much less and their playoff final attendance at Wembley this year reflected that.
We need to cultivate a broader market, and look at supporting establishment of supporters clubs further afield - which would be much easier now all games are televised too.
In time that would help shift the burden from Northen Fans of a given club when travelling to Wembley for example.
I think there's often a feeling that these things just happen. Fans either come or they don't, you either like RL or you don't, but nothing could be further from the truth. We just don't work hard enough, or smart enough, even within the financial constraints that we have.
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So having a scan at the ticket website, the tickets for Wire/Hull KR, the womens match, plus the general RFL tickets are now all lumped together. A quick speed count suggests there are c7.5k for sale on the RFL platform.
Caveats here - this doesn't include any for the 1895 match - no idea how many have been reserved and how many have been sold.
It also doesn't confirm that every section has been on sale. If they have though, and if the 1895 clubs sell their tickets, then we are looking at c62k sold. I expect it is less than this though.
Par for this would probably be between 58-60k I'd say when we look at the fact that Wire games v Wigan and Saints have had 62k and 64k, and Hull KR's last appearance got 58k versus Leigh. This isn't a novel final for these teams.
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8 minutes ago, JonM said:
I've been to every final since Wembley re-opened (except 2020 obviously). First few years you could pretty much guarantee seeing the kit of every SL & Championship club, but that has definitely dropped away. There's definitely more neutrals than supporters of either competing club though.
I think the impracticality and cost of getting across country by train these days is also a factor. It's cheaper and quicker for me to get home from Amsterdam on a Saturday evening using public transport than getting a train from London and forget it if you to want to stay late and watch the 1895 cup match.
I know people are often dismissive of cost elements, but we do have a unique position as a sport where our finalists are usually from the North of England, so fans are always travelling, and we haven't built up enough of a fan base for these outside of the North meaning we have a huge travelling base. We've even seen in things like football you can now get empty sections as fans become bored with the stadium, the travel challenges and costs and kick off times etc.
Things are just more expensive and more effort. Even if some of that is perception it will have an impact.
IMO the organisers need to make it an elite event to counter some of the above.
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One thing I would say is that there will still be a large number of neutrals at the final. Probably still in the ballpark of 25k neutrals I'd suggest.
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21 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
Yes, I don't disagree. My overarching point is that they shouldn't be cannibalising because they are months apart and, if we hadn't bored (at best) and actively discouraged (at worst) by both poor events and a lack of events, then we would have an audience for two events (plus) in London that are separated by four months.
We used to get 100K plus a year in London sales alone.
Agreed. It's entirely our fault that these things are a factor.
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42 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
I do think it's also worth saying that it's a very insular rugby league attitude to reach for the (okay but not great) Wembley Ashes sales to think that's the problem. They're far enough apart that they should not be cannibalising each other.
There is some logic to this to be honest and it isn't just due to insularity.
RL just doesn't have that many regular paying speccies. For major events we have a bit of a reliance on the same people supporting events.
100k tickets have been sold for a major RL series, I dont think it's insular to suggest that some people will prioritise that over going to Wembley as a neutral for the final.
The majority of Ashes tickets were sold as part of the pre registration piece, showing that it was existing fans (of different levels).
It's one of the biggest issues the sport faces imo, just keep dipping into the same crowd pool and hoping they will suddenly fill the grounds.
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2 hours ago, gingerjon said:
That and the impact of a decade of underwhelming match day experiences for the final at a time when (a) there are alternatives and (b) cost of living.
I genuinely think this paragraph is the real zinger here.
It's just not an event that makes you say wow on any level other than what the players do, and as crowds have reduced and sections closed the atmosphere has become worse.
And I say this as somebody who has been there to see my team win four times over the last 15 years or so and loved every visit.
We really do need to blow people's socks off at our events. Finals, Magic, Internationals. All a bit meh. When youre asking people to spend a fortune going to London, I can understand why people pass.
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In short, at the moment you can't. It's a terrible system at the moment, however there was mention that 7 day playback should be available by the end of July. Whether that will be available on Virgin, not sure.
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11 hours ago, Eddie said:
Maybe not for paying spectators (though they are in football), but if say Cas were playing Salford and they were in 11th and 12th I’d watch it on tv if relegation was at stake, but without it I couldn’t be less interested.
Individual games like that probably would see increased crowds versus nothing to play for games, I think people who categorically state there is no positive crowd impact are not basing it on evidence and I think they need to add the words material increase to be accurate.
The problem is that a lot of things need to line up to get what could ultimately be an extra 2k fans to a game every 2 or 3 years. So the actual increases are likely to be immaterial.
This doesn't factor in increased crowds in promotion battles, but it's a similar point.
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11 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
I agree with that generally.
I do think the culture in this country has been to focus on P/R because of Football's dominance, and paradoxically for a lot of that sport the very top can be a bit boring too!
I just don't think relegation battles are the big draw many paint them as, for fans of either team or neutrals.
I agree. A losing season is a losing season, and fans make less effort in those, whether there is a threat of relegation or not.
I can understand why people want it though, as the relegation piece is only half of it.
As I say, i just dont think the corwd/financial benefits or negatives in a standard UK comp are enough to base a decision on. I do think a comp that embeds international teams and wants to include expansion teams struggles with traditional P&R though. And this version of grading doesn't work in that context either.
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2 hours ago, Tommygilf said:
I don't think it really does work like that though. Essentially the only games of value (interest wise) are ones the teams fighting relegation can win, and naturally due to their position that is often a very low number. The rest are forgone conclusions.
Its also not that interesting either unless an unexpected club is involved.
It also doesn't see attendances do any better.
I dont particularly care either way on P&R. I think the benefits and pitfalls are overstated on both sides.
I do think if we are bringing in overseas and expansion teams then P&R ain't overly compatible, so I prefer licensing and similar for that reason, but not for the idea that one is better than the other significantly.
Whether we have licensing or P&R, crowds drop for poor teams, generally speaking. It's less fun watching a rubbish team. I dont think either system overrides that.
But if we acknowledge that something is more interesting, I think that's a positive factor over the comp that is less interesting.
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31 minutes ago, Tommygilf said:
More interesting perhaps, but not better
I'm not sure this point tracks. As a sports entertainment business, surely more interesting is better?
If you mean not better standard, I think its clear we see rubbish teams in any system, I'm not convinced it has a material impact either way really. I think all clubs start the year trying to get the best squad they can.
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3 hours ago, graveyard johnny said:
which will result in the same old same old outcome
That means nothing. Unless you are advocating dropping anyone who has ever lost playing for England.
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20 minutes ago, Worzel said:
I thought Warrington’s pack was great tonight, and they still had a threat on the edge. Clearly Ratchford has his limitations as a halfback at his age now, but he’s still a Rolls Royce game manager and brilliant in-game kicker.
Good, competitive game, just as I expected - the injury crisis story is proper overplayed.
I dont think its overplayed as such. We were plucky, but the crazy injury situation led to that erformance being relatively positive.
It is what it is, but it's always gonna be a part of the story when you have the majority of your top earners watching from tge seats.
2025 Attendance Thread
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
There is no reason that a Hudds final should be the same level as a Catalans Final though.