Dave T

I'm not sure I agree with the loss at the top end. The big clubs will now get to drop 4 games against the two weakest clubs in SL. They will then replace these games with games against other top 8 teams, plus add another couple in for good measure. People are calling out for more intense games, this should do that. There is a risk of repeat games losing attraction, but as I said earlier, the big games will still attract decent crowds even if slightly lower than the first game. Why do you see a loss at the top?

Don't 100% agree with all your post as it has pretty much a 100% financial approach, but I do agree with plenty. On your last paragraph in particular, is that a bad thing? Allowing clubs to find their level and to maybe grow again, as you could argue Fev have done is not a bad thing in my eyes. The move to 14 clubs in the last round of licensing was one of the most ridiculous decisions in recent times imho - we clearly don't have that many strong clubs. I believe the Wakefield guy said this a while back too IIRC (the staleness of the comp) and if I'm honest I agree, and I never ever thought I would say that about RL.

Yep, first mention I've seen of that.

Yes, that sounds familiar, I think you are right.

Possibly, although as per our previous conversation (which appears to have been deleted!) - these games should count as part of a season ticket so whilst there will be a difference, it is not as though the bottom 4's crowds will fall off a cliff. The alternative appears to be to have good versus rubbish just to keep the gap closer as the crowds will be more similar. I prefer to stretch things and it is up to the lower teams to get stronger. Things like a modest salary cap should mean that it should be within all of our clubs reach to make the top of SL. If not, then with all due respect you are not a big enough club and you will find your level in the more fluid structure.

As opposed to what? The top 8 games will attract higher crowds than Top 8 v Bottom 4 (my assumption) The 2nd tier playoffs should see bigger crowds for Championship clubs games at home versus SL opposition (based on Cup games). The challenge may be for the likes of Cas or Bradford, but this brings us back to the fact that these games should be part of a season ticket package anyway.

To compete in the top 4 you probably need far more investment than in the middle. Not every club needs this £6m turnover that you keep quoting for example. Looking at the Premier League (not the best example) but the top spenders in that division spend £202m in salaries, yet a club like Everton are in there and contributing to the comp on £63m salaries. Not everybody needs to spend the same amount - indeed if it is true that the likes of London have regularly spent to the cap then I would say they have wasted a fortune. If you have visions of being SL Champions, then I expect you would need to be regularly spending the full cap - if your short term goal is progression from the Championship, this may be possible on a salary bill of £1m. For the first few years you may have to play in the P&R Playoffs to justify your position in SL, but then that is the exciting on-field action that people want isn't it? You regularly quote supporters of your view, what did you make of the Cas bloke's quotes about being boring and them as a club going through the motions?

No, the idea is that people will still see the regular season as the 23 weekly rounds (SL used to consist of 23 rounds). At the moment if we are honest all the regular season does at the moment is count as a qualifier and give one team a nice shiny plate. That is all still there. The main difference is that instead of the playoffs being a knockout and having to be explained with a flow chart it will go into a group stage. Using different branding can easily highlight that this is the end of season playoffs rather than the regular season. The four clubs do not get relegated after Rd 23. They are knocked out, as they would be currently after Rd 28. Instead of going putting their feet up, they have to enter a playoff to decide what division they would be in the following season. Using trophies after Rd 23 is a clear way of drawing the line in the sand and stating that the Regular season is important and the next phase is the playoffs.

Naturally I don't know the answer to many of these questions. My thoughts are that after Round 23 that table has pretty much gone. A little like the current structure, the table becomes history once the playoffs start. It is easy to be obtuse to try and find holes, but in reality are any of the questions that difficult? Personally I'd go with branding similar to: Super League Finals Series RFL Playoffs (or maybe even the Promotion Playoffs) Northern Rail Cup

1 - I'm not overly bothered what Martyn Sadler's view is of this, it is of no concern to me. I'd like to see the funding proposals before writing the Championship clubs off. Some of the SL clubs have hardly been impressive in recent years. 2 - I think this is where it is being positioned wrong. The split is to create three playoffs. 3 - They don't need to. They will have started the season in Super League. They will still be in Super League until they are relegated out of it at the end of the season by finishing in the bottom 4 of the playoff. 4 - The top 8 is not the top division. The 12 that start the year in Super League is the top division. There is then a 7 round playoff instead of the current 4 round playoff.

you say there is no evidence, but I'd argue that there is. Without going through a ream of stats (I have to do a little work today ) it is probably fair to say that the games between the better teams get the better crowds. Each season will have more games between the better teams, therefore it is probably fair to assume that the crowds will be better at many of the top 8 clubs. At Warrington, I would be surprised if the home attendances are not boosted by replacing games against London and Castleford with additional games against Wigan, Leeds, Saints, Hull etc in the latter stages of the season. You would also reasonably expect the top 4 teams from the Championship to see a boost in their crowds in playoffs for SL, particularly when they are playing against the likes of Cas, Hull KR, Bradford etc - all used as examples based on current form. We saw when Wakefield, Hull and Cas were in the lower division that they returned some pretty good crowds. The area where you may see drops is the home crowds of the struggling 4 clubs in SL - but tbh, that is tough and I expect they would hold up relatively well against the benefits seen elsewhere. Now, I don't have time to go through the stats, but the RFL and advisors probably will have done so already. I do have concerns, whichever solution we now pick will see a large section of people unhappy, and knowing RL fans, they would rather moan about the solution than actually go with it in good faith and try and make it a success even if they didn;t vote for it. That worries me massively.

No, I can understand that view, however at the moment, halfway through a season many teams realise that they are not going to do anything, so I'm not sure this makes anything worse. What this structure does do is give every team some hope at the start of the season. I see the third tier as a Uefa Cup or RU Eurpoean Challenge Cup. Hardly Grand as they are secondary comps, but can be fun for the teams in it.

I think there are probably only 20 teams with real potential at the moment, I'd have had 2 x 10 in the first phase. I think it would have allowed for more intense games throughout and a better funding structure than with 24 teams - where I still think many will be making up the numbers. After 18 rounds this could have become a top 6 with home and away. I understand the issue with repeat fixtures, but the fact is that whilst a repeat Saints v Wigan game (for example) may have a lower crowd than their original game, it would still be a bigger draw for fans and broadcasters than Saints v Cas (no disrespect to Cas).

I used to manage a sales team. I would often focus my attention on the lower and middle level performers as there is more opportunity for them to deliver more than focusing solely on the top players. I don't see how the likes of Warrington and Wigan are being neglected. The TV rights are going for record sums, sponsorship is a struggle, but then there is a valid viewpoint that the creation of a more exciting league will help that (plus we are expecting a sponsor to be announced this year). There have been many decisions over recent years that have appeared to be weighted in favour of the big clubs, dual registration, restructure of academies etc. so I hardly think the sole focus is on the smaller clubs. I don't how the 3x8 excludes the top clubs. They will play more games against the better teams, hopefully leading to bigger crowds and more intense games. I personally wish they'd gone even further and more radical tbh.

I think the Championship becomes slightly cloudy, as basically you are playing for promotion, but the objective of SL doesn't really change. You start the season aiming to make the top 8 playoff and win the thing. Now though, if you miss the playoffs it isn;t season over, you have to fight for your life to avoid relegation.

Really? They think they are in?

Speaking from personal experience of me and my friends and family, people budget in for their season tickets. Some get these as Christmas gifts. There is also the element of spreading the cost over a few months and the fact that you are getting a discount. People can afford season tickets, where some draw the line is the ADDITIONAL £60 per game (and for any team to win the playoffs it will be a minimum of 2 extra home games and a Final in the space of 4 weeks). It can cost around £540 for a family ticket at Warrington.

I said crowds are not that bad. I didn;t say they hold up.

Do you know that it's not that important? Warrington have 6 different prices to watch them from the South Stand this year as an adult. ST Renewal = £15.85 per game Early Bird = £17.31 per game ST = £18.77 per game Half ST = £17.50 per game Pre-match = £19.50 per game Matchday = £20.50 per game Some tickets give you 3 free matches, some 2, some 1, some none. People will buy them. Put together a package that gives value, I would expect that price sensitivity with season tickets is not a massive issue. If it's an issue simply add a certain amount and if you don't get a home game, give it as discount of next year's, or even off a shirt. Really quite minor 'issues'.

That isn't the real problem. People are interested in the playoffs. They usually get good tv crowds and the crowds are not that bad. If you have a season ticket you have probably paid £15 per game per adult and £3 per junior ticket. This £36 for 4 often becomes over £60 now for a game. Add to this that the 8 team playoff means that you can have 4 consecutive all-pay games if you get to the GF, it is no wonder that people save their money and watch on TV. It is not that they are not interested. Playoffs are not the issue - the structure leading to more all-pay games is. This new structure potentially fixes that.

Ok. Charge £20 more per adult season ticket than now. This represents less than a 10% price increase despite a minimum of 1 extra game and I expect the number of people walking away because of this cost to be negligible. The trend of having direct debits and spread payments means that the actual price has become less important for many. Some DD schemes have even charged interest. People are paid to work this out, it's really not that difficult.

You set a price that people will pay that will bring in the required income. The prices are quite varied between clubs for current season tickets, in fact that are varied within a club due to renewals, early birds etc. The prices are pretty much made up anyway.

14 guaranteed home games. You may get 15, but 14 are guaranteed.

Yup, it wasn't my phrase.

I think it is clear that the zombie reference is about clubs where they have little to play for and just go through the motions. If this new proposal comes in there is no way you can just go through the motions. Surely you can appreciate that this may be more vibrant and attractive to some?