thundergaz
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Posts posted by thundergaz
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So you knew the answer all the time ,
And good riddance to em an all, if they aren't millionaires they should have been kicked out years ago.
Yes but I wasn't 100% on that. Plus seen as though your a giants fan I wanted you to have a change from last season and see what waiting and sweating was like lol.
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Dare i ask about the season almost upon us, is it still 8
As far as I know the changes don't come in until 2015. The only difference this season is 2 SL clubs get relegated and 5/6 champ clubs get relegated.
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Does it start this coming season or season 2015. ?
Will you stop it with these university challenge questions. If it was mastermind I might be able to help lol.
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so the superleague is not a top four play off for the GF? my paper says it is.
Don't the top 8 go into a mini league then the top 4 of that mini league play off to see who goes to the GF? I think that's the way it works.
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Sorry Parky, but I find reading Mr Sadlers reports does not give transparent coverage of a situation, he is like a traffic cop who wants to take you down his road of thinking, nothing at all wrong with that if you are a disciple of his, fortunately or unfortunately as the case may be I am not.
+1
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Tremendous posts, I take the points entirely.
Just have a problem that the gap between 1-8 and 9-12 may well leave us with an eight club SL.
Craiq suggests cash "will come into the game the second tier becomes a flowing river and not the stagnant pond it is now" .
I have a problem with that wishful thinking, but we can live in hope??
I think you are right to a certain extent parky. I think we will have an 8 club SL until the dust settles and we have the best 4 clubs out of the middle 8 cementing their position in the top flight. But I really do believe once the crash bang wallop as happened between those clubs we will eventually have the strongest SL we have ever had. That's just my opinion of course but the best run and best financial clubs will make up the last four in the top tier I'm confident that will eventually happen therefore presenting us with a proper elite comp.
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I agree parky. But I do think with this system you will get your way and the strongest 12 financially clubs will end up permanently in the big 12. You wanted a strong top tier I think this system will eventually give you that parky. The cap is the main stumbling block for champ clubs but if they do get into the top tier the clubs with the most finances will definately stay their no doubt about that. This system will tell us is Fev really financially better and a better run club than say wakey and is Leigh financially better than Widnes and better run. You get the point. This system will put all that to the rest.I personally agree entirely with that analysis.
So the new format although merely a way to reduce debt and downsize clubs, will also throw up a tremendously interesting financial battle in the middle eight??
Who will shy away from spending and reduce their debts, who will increase spending, how much will Nahaboo inject? Do they really have money at Halifax?? Will London ground to a halt??
Such an exciting time is to come with the new format which people will state is all to do with "what happens on the pitch", but the failure or success of any club will remain IMVHO in the accountants office, where they are currently awaiting the far more important meeting/decision than last weeks i.e. the funding decision.
Once the clubs have re-jigged financially will the format then become as sterile as any.........
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Whatever.
By the end of 2015 most of the people who think this is a brilliant idea will be whinging about it and wanting it to change.
As a general rule in life, if something looks like a magic bullet that will fix all your problems, then it's a load of ######.
Two years. Max.
It will last as long as licensing did it as to for it stand any chance of working. No one expects it to work straight away. It takes time for anything to work to its full potential. (I'm not a fan of the system either) But I am of P&R and I think this system is a safer way to introduce P&R than the old yo yo system.
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The Cas chief executive was ecstatic "The whole game will be better, I don't think it will ever change back" he said "There might be doubts now but in five or six years time people will realise it's a brilliant decision"
Brilliant as you say for a poor SL side who needs to reduce their spending, and will probably be very happy staying alive in the middle eight with several derbies against Wakey and Bradford.
Steve is excited about the Championship clubs "Like Featherstone and Sheffield Eagles" who he is likely to welcome to the jungle soon. He also says "this will create more competition".
I fully understand his position on this, for a financially stretched club fed up with their inability to compete in Superleague for so many years now creating a "who cares" attitude at the club, they will now be able to compete a step down.
A you say Gaz a win win for poorer Superleague clubs, however the flip side is how will they go on in the first 23 rounds if they re-adjust their Salary spending down to "A Mil(lion) pounds" as you suggest and become even less competitive in SL against the top eight???
The poorer SL clubs know they can't make the eight parky. They won't be too bothered about becoming less competetive their main aim IMO will just be to avoid the drop and spend within their means. If a champ club tries to sign a sinfield etc the poor SL club could see that as a threat to their top tier status so with them only spending x amount on their cap the extra will help them kill any threat from a champ club too. Like I say parky I think this system suits the poorer SL clubs more than any other clubs.
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Every single club in SL in 2015 will spend as much money as they possibly can on wages in order to ensure there isn't the slightest chance they'll get beaten by the Championship clubs. If they don't, they lose out on a minimum of £600k from centralised funds the next season AND the valuable added income of travelling support from the likes of Wigan, St Helens, Leeds et al. I think it is very naive on the RFL's and supporters behalf to think this won't happen, especially when two clubs with real financial difficulties disappear at the end of this season.
What I was getting at is the poorer SL clubs can now live within their means with this system. For example say the champ clubs get a 700k cap and SL clubs stay at the 1.8m cap a team like wakey say can spend 1mil on their cap and still be 300k in front of any rival champ club. This allowing them to live within their means and they should easily fight off any champ club challenge with that extra 300k salary cap spend. Lets just say Leigh go for Kevin sinfield and they have 40k cap left and they offer it to sinfield and he as no other offers but say wakey have only spent a mil on their cap. Their chairman would then turn round and say we will give sinfield 50k to fight off the competion or threat from the champ club. What I'm getting at is the Poorer SL clubs can spend less on their cap and live within their means but if they see a threat from the champ clubs they can quickly swat it.
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And thus the mediocrity spreads.
Get ready for the middle 8 rather than aim for the top.
My thoughts exactly jon. I'm all for P&R but this system will make the stronger teams stronger and the weaker teams weaker and let them live within their means.
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I hope some of these clubs have done their crowd estimates and financial consequencies of what they've voted for.
The clubs at the bottom end of SL have voted for immediate relegation this season then the following season dumping two fixtures against SL clubs and bringing in three games against Championship clubs.
We all know what happens to crowds when SL clubs play Championship clubs in the C Cup. The SL club only opens two stands instead of four because the crowds will be so poor.
These clubs at the bottom end of SL are the ones already in financial trouble. Swapping two SL fixtures for matches against Championship clubs is a real financial risk!
Have they really done their maths on this?
Of course they have the money they will lose on crowds will be made back by not spending as much as they currently do on their salary cap. These so called poor SL clubs can now spend less on their cap if they get relegated. Also I'm sure most of them voted for this for that reason as they can't afford top flight rugby anymore. The so called poor SL clubs can now also spend less on their cap if they stay in the big 12 as I can't see wakey , bulls and London etc breaking into the top 8 anytime soon so they can spend say a mil on the cap and hope they can still fight off the top champ clubs its a win win for the poorer SL clubs IMO.
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But Koukash and Adam Pearson have both said they'll give their full support to the changes. Sabotaging it by deliberately underfunding the new structure wouldn't be consistent with what they've said. There's probably another carrot being dangled somewhere in the mix.
I've got a feeling koukash will get his own way here terry and the SL will get their salary cap raised too. (Just a feeling that could be the carrot dangled).
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There is better teams currently in the championship than them that would miss out. Also you talk about expansion but what about Cumbria? Their is 3 teams in the champ at this present time and they are all better than the four teams you have mentioned. I'm all for expansion but it as to be earned not just thrown in like Paris/crusaders were.Taking up the cause of expansion, if as Gareth Walker of LPL pointed out on Super League Backchat. The RFL's "whole game solution" involves going from 37 Pro and semi-Pro clubs down to 24 and given the London Broncos probable demise. should not the following clubs be automatically included in the second Tier :
London Skolars
Toulouse (if not replacing London Broncos)
Hemel Stags
North Wales Crusaders
Not forgetting that Sheffield - who are an expansion club - would be there on merit plus the two dropping out of Super League. That would leave five / six spaces for the strongest "heartland" clubs.
Now whilst the RFL plans for the lower tiers of the game are shrouded in smoke and mirrors, would this not make more sense for the future viability of the game
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That's the theory, Ponterover. But, of course, that could be achieved much more simply with smaller divisions. Why the need for the big ones in the first place ? Which take up three quarters of the season.
And how do you ensure that the top four $uperleague 2 teams are financially equipped to compete whilst not destroying the first phase of the competition which will last for three quarters of the season ? It's not as straightforward as you imply.
Don't the top 5 clubs destroy the competition now? (In both leagues in fact) So I don't see any difference if I'm being honest.
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London beat both Sheffield and Fev in the Cup which doesn't look all that promising for their competitiveness.
Totally different though Richie London are full time and played against part timers. The salary cap is a big gulf too. I just hope the salary caps between the 2 leagues are similar as it will enable us to go full time and compete with the top 12 teams in this country. If the cap doesn't become similar then like you say I expect much of the same old and very unlikely a SL2 team will get promoted.
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Phew, that must be a relief to fans of other clubs.
Best scrum half SL have ever seen. All that class shouldn't go to waste a fantastic recruitment IMO.
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The point is, Gaz, that they may well already have enough points from the 22/23 game stage to avoid relegation before the last seven games start. Might be just a huge (ten points or so) advantage but, worse still, could be mathematically certain.
True Richie that could become the case but like I said the extra income will be the main factor I would of thought. Also you might argue that their fans won't turn up for meaningless games but we've been playing them ever since the licencing system came in. ( not knocking the sport before people jump on the comment just trying to point something out).
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Its more the lack of knowledge Richie than the system being complicated. You know how the 3x8 is going to be made up its just the finishing points as you have pointed out that need finalising.OK, here's a start - if you finish top of $L2 after the 22/23 game part of the season, have you won something ?
Or have you qualified for something else ?
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It's not just about complexity - it's about a sense of what you're playing for.
I feel very sorry for teams 5-(maybe)8 in $L2. What are the last seven games all about for them ?
Avoiding relegation Richie. Of course they shouldn't go down when finishing around them positions but you never know also the big plus for them is the extra income which I'm sure will be much appreciated.
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Lets have the figures then, what increase in crowds will there be now the pathway to "stupid league" is open. Lets start with Leigh. They will have a crowd increase of what?
To be fair I think its inevitable the champ clubs will get an increase in their crowds with P&R returning. I don't think many if any SL crowds will improve though.
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With respect, that's even more wrinkles to take into account. It's all getting too complicated. Simplicity that even a five year old can understand is what shoud drive league formats not the need to learn some complicated equation to make any sense of it all.
I don't see what's so complicated with the new system. I'm not a fan of the system but complicated it is not.
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History suggests otherwise.
Listen, I want to see P&R introduced in a sustainable and properly financed way. However, what I suspect we're seeing is an opening of the floodgates.
Look out for existing Super League clubs maxing out the credit cards next season in a desperate bid to avoid finishing 13th or 14th and a similar ###### or bust approach the year after when Leigh et al are thrown into the mix.
I agree pottsy. But bringing P&R back in any shape or form maxing the credit cards will still happen to avoid the drop or to get promoted. Also I don't think their is more than 2 clubs in the current champ that can throw money at getting out of the league.
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Did I miss something else? I can't see how you can go full-time under the current Championship salary cap unless there's a commitment by the RFL to massively increase the salary cap, at best £300k will get you the skeleton of a full-time 13. Even if it's doubled then you'll still struggle to get a squad of players capable of challenging a SL side regularly.
Like I've said before that's one of many reasons why I'm not in favour of the new system. But like ive said before I would like the SL2 to have a salary cap either similar to SL1 or a max of say a million. So the current champ clubs can at least compete with the bottom of SL1.you might say well that as a formula of boom and bust in it. But I honestly do think with the licencing system that's been in place for so long clubs will know what they can and can't spend as the licencing system as made many clubs more wiser to their budgets.
The TV Thread
in Any Other Business / Any Other Sports
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Vikings is really good it's a definite watch.