The Great Dane
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Posts posted by The Great Dane
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On 26/06/2022 at 07:29, RayCee said:
I'm flabbergasted that anyone would want to pick on where players originated by birth. Surely, it is known that the standard and facilities in the Pacific Islands is never going to produce players of international standard. If only Island born players were eligible, those games would never had been played or of sufficient quality to being televised.
If they can't field a legitimate team, then maybe they shouldn't be participating...
Of course the only reason they don't field a legitimate team is because we've made it's easier not to. As a result they don't, and RL is the worse for it because zero effort is put into developing the grassroots in the islands and even more pressure is put on the Australian and Kiwi systems at the expense of local talent.
In the case of Australia that local talent looks for different sports where they'll be afforded a genuine opportunity to succeed, and as a result this practice of allowing glorified soldiers of fortune into rep footy directly contributes to the grassroots dying across the country.
On 26/06/2022 at 07:29, RayCee said:By tapping into a huge diaspora of Islanders, RL has a pool of talented athletes that provide outstanding entertainment. Surely that should be celebrated, not mocked.
Sure, but at the expense of much larger pools of talented athletes. But who gives right, we have more competitive "internationals" to watch.
21 hours ago, Copa said:If you try to understand Tongan and Samoan views of culture and identity within both the islands and in Australia and New Zealand, you’ll find your view isn’t relevant at all.
I don't give a flying about their view. Whether they like it or not, international sport was intended to be a contest between nations, not ethnicities.
I know it's going to be hard for an insufferable racist like you to understand, but the fact that they aren't totally of European decent doesn't mean that they aren't Australian or Kiwi!
20 hours ago, gingerjon said:6 out of 30 of the listed players for the Samoan SU squad are similarly born in places other than Samoa. 80% - and the overwhelming majority of the 'name' players. It's not a specifically rugby league thing at all.
It will only become a problem if the flow of Tongans and Samoans with at least a grandparental connection stops.
Only because RU moved to the same edibility rules as RL.
I guess everyone's internationals can be a joke now.
18 hours ago, UTK said:Absolutely, we've already done this with the Melanesian nations in the form of the Hunters and Silktails - it's much more feasible to do so with Fiji and PNG due to their populations but now that both those pathways have been established we should be turning our heads toward a suitable equivalent for Polynesian nations.
The heritage players have presented an opportunity for this to happen, without the success of Tonga and Samoa's international sides RL would never have gained the recognition domestically to drive their populations toward RL. Taking advantage of that recognition by developing these pathways is the next step in the process of developing these nations.
Specifically on Tonga, we actually have seen an increase in the "domestic" Tongans coming into the NRL over the last 2 years - Eliesa Katoa, Viliami Vailea and Taniela Otukolo were all born and raised (to a point - I believe the first two were there til late high school, unsure on Otukolo) in Tonga. All three are at the Warriors and Katoa was in the wider squad for this match.
We didn't do that with the Melanesian nations. Native Papuans and Fijians have been participating in the sport at all levels for generations at this point. Sure most of the Fijians start out in RU, but that's beside the point.
Furthermore, placing the responsibility of developing all the talent in the Southern Hemisphere onto the shoulders of the NRL isn't a good outcome for the sport anywhere. Of course you don't actually care about that, so I don't know why I'm wasting my time.
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1 minute ago, Damien said:
Who'd have guessed you'd have put a negative slant on what was a marvellous day of Rugby.
Sometimes reality hurts, but the thing is you can't act to fix it if you refuse to accept that you have a problem.
Which has basically been international RL's biggest issue since roughly the late 80s and early 90s. It chooses to ignore it's real problems in the hopes that they'll just go away.
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39 minutes ago, DavidM said:
Wonderful day of international rugby league . I love it . Vossy wonders why there isn’t more , ask the NRL mate .
Why?
It's not the NRL's fault that international RL's reputation has been run into the dirt by decades of uncompetitive fixtures, a series of truly astounding decisions made in both hemispheres starting well before the NRL even existed, and a series of leaders and champions whom are/were arrogant, entitled, and always looking for a short cut rather than committing to the work of actually building the product and the sport on the ground in nations across the world.
In saying that, the NRL's ever-increasing attempts to astroturf it into existence will only hurt it more in the long term.
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Of the 34 players to represent Samoa and Tonga yesterday only one (Spencer Leniu) was born or raised in Samoa or Tonga.
Now take a second and let just what a joke that is set in.
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17 minutes ago, Scubby said:
The Women's Origin is close to a 25k sell out at Canberra. That's not 1-5% of the men's equivalent
Rep footy isn't comparable to club footy for a number of reasons, and frankly I think you know that. A one off special event is always an easier sale than a biweekly commitment.
BTW, I live in Canberra, and it's not close to a sell out unless they've flogged 10k seats cheap in the last few days. Which isn't impossible mind you, I just haven't heard about it yet if it's happened.
Edit; I just checked Ticketek, there's no way that it's close to a sell out. Not yet anyway.
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28 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
My error - I though the A League was completely duplicated for men and women.
No idea about basketball but appreciate that it’s pro in Oz and I should have included it.
No stress, I wasn't having a go mate.
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48 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:
I hear this point often and whilst it has merit for a geographical spread across the continent, the idea simply falls over because the supporter base for the sport is based on the eastern seaboard and the sport needs suitable representation there, never mind the extortionate costs of getting from east to west, north and south of the continent to the other every week.
Ignorance is bliss.
The support base is only on the Eastern Seaboard because everything south of Goulburn and west of Bathurst has been neglected by the establishment in Sydney for basically all of the sport's existence.
If investment was made into other markets you'd see growth, just like the AFL has in the north east and RL in Canberra and Melbourne. Until that happens the sport will have no significant traction.
Furthermore, there're multiple entities across the country interested in investing in the sport that have been shut out by the NRL that could have used the NRLW as a foot in the door, WA being a great example of one that isn't on the Eastern Seaboard. You also failed to address the actual point that I was making, but whatever.
48 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:Using existing NRL clubs is not a necessity, but using existing brands is the easiest door opener for interest, than creating brand new brands.
It’s not a myth, the because the clubs would be significantly worse off if they were all newly established franchises. There would be no existing club fan allegiance to draw on (despite what anyone thinks, every NSW NRL club will have over 100k supporters), then of course there are all the existing facilities, administration, knowledge and skill set in managing a professional sports team to utilise in a single organisation rather than two seperate ones. Setting up 10 new franchises would represent a blowout in costs.
Not to forget as I think @The Rocket put it, the ambition of all young girls now having the opportunity to represent the club they have been following their whole lives. It’s what dreams are made of.
So it’s not a myth, no. Certainly not a proven one.
If there was any real value to the existing brands then the NRLW, AFLW, W-league, etc, etc, sides wouldn't be averaging crowds roughly 1-5% the size of their male counterpart's depending on the sport. Their social media engagement, ratings, etc, etc, would all be significantly higher as well because the supporters of those brands would support the team simply because it's carrying the brand.
They aren't, why? Because 95-99% of the pro club's supporters don't care about the women's product regardless of the brand, and never will. As such it's a niche product that will appeal to a niche audience that can exist regardless of the men's audience.
I also never suggested that the NRL should set up 10 brand new franchises, in fact I suggested quite the opposite, so again you are dodging the actual point that was made.
48 minutes ago, Sports Prophet said:Now there’s a good myth!
Do Cronulla have a divine right to be in the NRLW because of all the unrivalled knowledge, passion, interest and investment the club have placed in professional women’s RL? No, but it probably makes them a better choice than a threadbare organisations like the bloody North Sydney Bears or Newtown Jets!
Cronulla probably shouldn't be in the NRL, let alone the NRLW, but that's an aside.
Under no circumstances, no matter the league or sport, is it necessary to have two Southern Sydney sides in the same national competition. There simply isn't the market for it, and as such in the long run their presence will do more damage than good just like it has done in the NSWRL/ARL/NRL.
Taking all that into consideration, their prior investments into women's RL are pretty irrelevant frankly.
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14 minutes ago, gingerjon said:
It would be a unique occurrence in the Australian sporting landscape - it hasn't happened in soccer, RU, AFL or cricket and there's zero indication that the NRL is thinking of behaving any differently.
It has happened in soccer (Canberra United), basketball (WNBL), and a few other sports.
In those sports that have independent clubs and shared clubs, the independent women's club's tend to be the most successful once you take away the subsidies that the others get from their club's men's team's operations. In saying that, both business plans have their pros and cons and it's definitely a horses of courses situation.
In saying all that I totally agree with you that the NRLW will almost certainly never have an independent club. The NRL will pay lip service to it, but I doubt it'll ever actually happen.
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28 minutes ago, Scubby said:
I don't agree. Some clubs like Perth who are bidding for an NRL team in future may be asked to establish an NRLW team in the interim as part of the process.
Sure, but if the NRL demands of new expansion clubs that they field NRLW teams then those NRLW teams aren't in locations without without NRL teams are they.
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1 hour ago, The Rocket said:
I find your comment of NRLW being "NRL Lite " incredibly ignorant and patronising, have you watched it ?
And also why shouldn`t girls who have supported a particular NRL club all their life not have the right to play for the female team of that club in a national competition.
Why should they not have the right to build their own legacy instead of being forced to ride on the coat tails of the men's clubs?
Signing up to be an NRL club's women's team is signing up to eternally be the after thought opening act, and it shows in the variation between the support of women's and men's teams.
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2 hours ago, Damien said:
Surely teams in Canberra and North Queensland would be in any national competition anyway.
Maybe, but Cronulla, Bondi, Kogarah, and Balmain/Campbelltown probably wouldn't be in most national competitions, or at the very least not all of them.
In RL you'd probably ideally spilt Sydney into 4 or 5 regions each with a single representative- north, south, east, and west, or inner west and outer west. That split was totally achievable in the NRLW, and the only reason it didn't happen is because of myopia and self interest.
To give you an analogy; it'd be like a supposedly national competition in the US that has the five boroughs of New York represented but no teams in LA, Chicago, and Dallas.
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2 hours ago, Man of Kent said:
Perfection is the enemy of good…
Nobody is asking for perfection, just for a little more effort than the bare minimum.
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6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:
What would your preference clubs have been?
If you were starting a 10 team NRL from scratch today it would look something like-
Sydney x2
Brisbane x2
Melbourne
Perth
Adelaide
NZ
Regional x2
Now in the NRLW's case that probably wasn't going to be feasible, especially with the impact of covid, however the goal still should have been to get as close to that as possible. There also should have been a hard cap on the amount of Sydney clubs as well (probably 4-5), and there's no way that they should have ever been allowed to represent 50% of the competition at any one time.
6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:Remember there is significant value in using existing brands rather than new ones.
Myth. If it was true the NRLW teams would be significantly better supported than they actually are.
The NRL sides don't have a monopoly on popular existing brands either. The NRL would have got a ridiculous amount of publicity if the Bears and/or Newtown were given NRLW licenses for example, and there're plenty of other famous clubs and brands from around the country whom will/should never get a run in the NRL that the NRLW could have been the perfect format for as well.
6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:Which non Sydney clubs applications should have been accepted?
We'll never know because 99% of them were effectively barred from bidding.
6 hours ago, Sports Prophet said:Do you have any understanding about the history of the Cronulla Sharks Women’s programme leading up to now? If you did, I think you would be happy with that club’s inclusion.
Doesn't give them a divine right to an NRLW license.
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16 hours ago, Pulga said:
It already is the most elite women's rugby comp in the world.
Have to say I am beyond disappointed that two more Sydney teams have been allowed in. This was a real chance to create a comp without all the horrible baggage of tradition.
Now we're just going to have NRL Lite.
Absolutely no vision.
Yeah if the NRL had any intentions of the NRLW being anything more than a glorified publicity stunt then they would have capped the percentage of the competition that could be from Sydney at any one time, and the licenses would have been open to tender.
Unfortunately self interest and myopia rules the day in RL.
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19 hours ago, dkw said:
After reading your previous efforts on here I'm not sure you have the brain cells to lose.
It’s not my fault that you lot are totally ignorant about the state of Australian RL and utterly delusional about English RL’s position.
To be honest with you I used to have hope for English RL, then I came on here and interacted with English RL fans, and it became clear why English RL is screwed and always will be…
It’s like Australian soccer actually; anytime positive change is possible it’s own fans and supporters sabotage it in favour of an unachievable ideal.
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12 hours ago, gingerjon said:
If I'm reading their accounts right, then Football Australia made a profit of around £6.5m last year.
The RFL made one of £25,000 after sacking a lot of staff and taking on government debt.
There may be absolutely nothing that IMG/RFL can learn from Football Australia but to say it's because they don't make money isn't true.
(The WRU get plenty of cash boosts. It's hilarious how badly they handle it. I'd hope that should the RFL ever get their advantages then they would know what to do.)
The FFA is a separate company from from the A-league, and only makes a profit by fleecing money off the top of kids registration fees.
In other words every soccer participant in the country pays a massive premium to keep the FFA from going bankrupt. Which is terrible for the sport, but that is an aside.
The Socceroo’s activities don’t come close to covering the sport’s expenses, and even if they did local soccer still wouldn’t be a product that could grow to be a serious competitor in the Australian sports market.
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On 03/06/2022 at 04:31, GUBRATS said:
I said the ' first ' thing , the IMG deal is 12 years , we have ( hopefully ) a WC coming at the end of this year , with another one across the channel in 3 years time , these events need to be exploited , it is probably the only time we can put RL in the conscious of the wider public of the UK , other than on those occasions half the population don't know we exist , and of the 50% that do , 49% don't care , it is our best opportunity in the short term
Longer term going forward then yes we need to look at the community and professional game , but without regular meaningful and hopefully competitive internationals we will never grow the sport in the NH
You can’t exploit them effectively because there’s no local product that will hold the interest of the vast majority of any potential new fanbase the WC creates until the next WC comes around.
Which is exactly the problem that the ARU and FFA has, and basically the whole point of the dessert analogy.
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2 minutes ago, Dunbar said:
Come on, Canberra is not that bad.
Canberra is a bloody paradise compared to Northern England.
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1 hour ago, The Future is League said:
Saying we're twice when referring to union confirms that you are a union fan. I knew you wasn't a fan of TTG, and i thought you was a fumbleball fan, but 100% i knew you wasn't one of us.
I could feel myself losing brain cells just reading that.
BTW, though I am neither a RU or Aussie Rules fan, this sort of gate keeping is a great way to turn potential fans away…
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23 minutes ago, Wolford6 said:
To say that Regan Grace is not cut out for RU is ridiculous ... he was brought up on it. If he can tackle the likes of Ryan Hall and Fouad Yaha he can tackle the likes of any RU winger. 40 players have been released by the Welsh RU Regions and so he probably won't go to Wales for political and financial reasons rather than for not being wanted. His father is reportedly English.
However, it's true that he is more cut out for RL ... that's why Canberra are reportedly interested in him.
Have you noticed that we're supposedly interested in every SL player with any notoriety these days?
The truth is that we're not seriously interested in the vast majority of them, their managers are just trying to use our existence and recent history of hiring poms to increase the value of their contracts at home.
That's not to say that the club isn't interested in Regan Grace in particular, as I wouldn't have any more of a clue than you do as to whether they're interested in him in particular.
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1 hour ago, GUBRATS said:
Probably the first thing IMG need to concentrate on is finding the funding to put together a proper international calender , if the money is there , the southern hemisphere should follow , hopefully
An even heavier focus on roughly 5-12 (max) games a year isn't going to help English RL's position in the slightest.
RU and Soccer in this country revolves around the Wallabies and Socceroos, and basically always has. Yet both sports are still broke and supporter less despite all the exposure the Wallabies and Socceroos bring.
The reason why that is, and to give you an analogy, is because international/rep fixtures are dessert while the local club competitions are your staple diet. They're a great treat, but if you rely on junk food to sustain you then you're always going to be unhealthy no matter what you do.
If your goal is RL having a strong presence in the UK then the only way to achieve it is through investment into the grassroots and pro-scene nationally in the England, and perhaps the UK more broadly. If you get those things right then a strong rep/international scene will follow, but if you try to jump straight to the good bit without eating your vegetables first then you'll just end up another broke niche sport that can draw a good crowd a few times a year.
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7 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:
I think if there’s any merit in this idea is exactly because they *don’t* need to play more than one game per year at the Oval, and yet still have a two-city club combining heritage with a new market. Could do a 9 game Norths season ticket, with a heritage match against Manly or Souths at the Oval, and then a reserved section for ‘away’ fans at the other 8 Sydney grounds.
Any home games in Sydney would be a monumental mistake.
Furthermore, a membership that included tickets to away games would require a reciprocal rights deal with the other club, which are much harder to organise than you might imagine. It's actually quite complicated to find a balance where such deals are financially beneficial for both parties, especially when only one side would be offering reciprocal rights.
7 hours ago, Hull Kingston Bronco said:That cross-Sydney set-up plus 11 home matches in their stadium in Perth seems like a brilliant solution to me. It’s one reason why the Sydney Swans has worked as a sustainable expansion club: They have 12,000 members in Melbourne (from their original club South Melbourne) who attend their ‘away’ games there, a third of their membership base. Those members get 11 games in Victoria, plus special travel offers for some Sydney games.
The Bears situation isn't at all comparable to the Swans relocating to Sydney. The Swans support base in Melbourne being mainly ex-South Melbourne fans is broadly speculation without evidence as well.
I have no doubt that a percentage of their members in Melbourne are only members because of their history in Melbourne. However a bunch of teams do/would have similar numbers of members in other cities, the Cowboys in Brisbane and Collingwood and Richmond everywhere for example. Undoubtably a significant portion of Swans members in Melbourne are members for similar reasons to why those other clubs have large fanbases in other cities, and not because of their history in Melbourne.
The Bears merging with Perth doesn't benefit anybody but the Bears, and under no circumstances should that be the reason for a Perth team or why they exist. If another Sydney club wants to relocate to Perth we are having a different discussion though, but that's never going to happen.
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2 minutes ago, Anita Bath said:
It was ‘ tongue in cheek’, about Cairns, but the question remains, were would a Cairns based team play. Not sure that another Government funded stadium would be on the cards.
I wouldn't be surprised at all if the Qld gov was totally supportive of building a reasonable stadium in Cairns if they were guaranteed an NRL side in Cairns.
No chance that happens though.
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7 hours ago, Anita Bath said:
And like the redcliffe based ‘dolphins’ they will play most of their games at….Suncorp?
Brisbane Roar looking to move back there, Dolphins playing games there….any more Queensland expansion will see games there 7 days a week
I doubt Redcliffe will keep Suncorp as their 'main home' for too long.
Obviously I don't know this for sure, but I'd be surprised if they don't plan to use their status as an NRL club to get Dolphin Stadium developed into a roughly 20k NRL standard stadium as soon as possible. At that point they'll only play their big games at Suncorp.
Playing regularly at Suncorp will hurt their support base in the mid-long term just like the Roar playing out of Redcliffe hurt theirs.
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Pacific Tests - June 25th
in The General Rugby League Forum
Posted
No it's not.
The Pacific Tests being bundled into the Super Saturday package shows that it's not a strong enough product to sell independently, which in turn shows that they aren't making a lot of money out of them.