UTK

Don't think PNG are going to get shafted here, only a couple of months ago the NRL and the Australian Governments Pacific Sports Program partnered to get an additional $2.5 million AUD investment into elite RL in PNG. The Prime Minister himself publicly backed the 18th NRL team to be PNG, spoke of wanting to ensure the return of international matches to PNG after the PMXIII game was held in Australia this year and even provided a security guarantee to ensure the Hunters final match went ahead after another QCup team refused to travel to Port Moresby. There's far too much investment and political capital involved to snub PNG from playing in the top regional competition, even if they're only in the second tier like the 2019 iteration. Lebanon is probably the odd team out of all the SH Nations when contemplating a Pacific Cup, after the strong performances in their group I wouldn't be surprised if they're the team with the touring option. Especially as the MEA Cup isn't a long competition and they're already qualified for 2025 anyway.

It's not about creating European nation to rival ENG/AUS/NZ though is it, it's about pursuing opportunities that are presented by the circumstances that are present and affording the bare minimum of respect to developing nations. Wales, France and Scotland have each had their own opportunities to grow and develop since 2000 but outside of a few very specific examples England have treated all of the above with disdain and made very little effort to capitalise on such opportunities where they arise. This is exactly why the SH/NH gap looks to be widening so fast, the SH nations strengthen on a comparable scale to the atrophy that European nations have encountered since 2000. Wales had the Crusaders pumping out Welsh SL players regularly, then the demise of the club occurs and nothing is done to salvage this fruitful player source. Now that generation of Welsh talent are finishing their careers and the following generation has a single regular SL player that has now gone to RU, leaving the Welsh team without a win in 3 consecutive World Cups. Scotland had their own Tonga/Samoa moment in that 4N, they possessed a strong enough heritage crop to draw with eventual finalists NZ - as mentioned in my previous post this was completely ignored and no effort was made to exploit another potential competitor. France is the best attempt, having Catalans and Toulouse in the system is no doubt an undertaking that benefits the French National side. As for Internationals these aren't an annual fixture as they should be but nonetheless are regular enough by International RL standards, the execution of such matches often lacks a level of respect (infamous wednesday night at Leigh) but the fact they happen shouldn't be looked down upon. Unfortunately it's still clear the priorities are not with France however as now we have England inventing made up teams of expat Aussies/Kiwis so that they don't have to play actual Internationals. Then proceeding to name the Captain of France in the aforementioned teams squad despite the fact that France are playing their own actual test match on the same weekend.

This is such a ridiculous concept thrown out in a desperate attempt to deflect from the embarrassment that is the relationship between England RL and the rest of Europe. Lets look at some facts shall we - in the 2000s the only games that Samoa/Tonga played were either in World Cups, WC Qualifying or Pacific Cups against other minnow Pacific Nations hosted in Auckland in front of family and friends + a handful of locals. Fastforward to the 2010s and we see a distinct change in the proportions of eligible players for these Pacific nations, what happens - the NRL underwrites and takes losses on the mid-season Pacific tests for years to provide a platform for these professionals to represent their nations which elevates these matches from park football to major broadcasting coverage for the first time outside of WCs. Slowly but surely we begin to see the star power of these sides increase as new talent emerges and older heads come back to represent their nations of heritage in these mid-season matches. In the 2017 WC we then have the first real landmark result, Tonga upsets NZ. The very next year Tonga is then guaranteed matches against both NZ and Australia, literally the first match between Australia and Tonga in the history of RL was instantly locked in to capitalise on this newfound popularity and competitiveness. This then translates to the 2019 Oceanic Cup, where the International Calendar is changed to provide each of the Pacific Nations with a pathway to regularly competing with AUS/NZ. Scotland had a similar landmark result in 2016 against NZ and in the same tournament they played England in front of a good crowd (albeit doubleheader). 6 years later and there hasn't been another England/Scotland fixture. So that's Samoa and Tonga, in a different category you have Fiji and PNG - two countries which have NRL supported teams playing within Australian systems. Now the "they only want more players for the NRL" argument, the PNG Hunters have produced 1 NRL player in 9 years in QCup while the Silktails thus far have 1 player who has played 1 game in the NRL. This player production doesn't exist currently, but the Hunters have significantly raised the standard of the Kumuls by providing a professional environment for PNGs domestic players to develop their talents in. If the sole goal of the NRL/ARLC revolved around the production of NRL players, the PNG Hunters would have been cut from the budget years ago but that simply isn't the case. As for the "it's only chance that players have stuck their hand up for heritage nations", somewhat understandable if you have no connection to the RL scene in Australia/NZ but I'm happy to enlighten here. Heritage pathways are real and actively fostered in AUS/NZ, there are large NRL-backed Pacific heritage tournaments in NSW and QLD while heritage sides in NZ regularly play games against NZ residents teams and even tour Australia (there's a Samoan junior representative side touring Australia currently). These tournaments in Australia have kids as young as 10 all the way through to opens. Kids grow up representing Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, PNG, CIs in big tournaments against each other - these are kids that become actively contracted to NRL clubs in their later teens and are still pulling on the Samoan jersey and representing RLSamoa against the other pacific nations, but no I'm sure it's entirely a coincidence that they just happen to stick their hands up, has nothing to do with the opportunities they have been consistently afforded in their formative years to build the connection with that national team. The NRL/ARLC/NZ are far from perfect, I am more than happy to rip them to shreds over plenty of decisions such as the recent cancellation of the mid-season tests or the 2021 postponement. Suggesting that all this is down to chance and that funding teams within the Australian system is only to produce players for the NRL (even though that really hasn't come to fruition but is still maintained anyway) is just laughable. By all means if it makes you feel better about the state of Europe and England's role within that context then feel free to continue pretending this is the truth, sadly it won't help resolve any of the problems that we actually have.

Roles very much reversed from the last game - Samoa turned up with an air of arrogance, little emphasis on preparation assuming they would walk it, England obliterated them for it and they simply had no answers. England rock up assuming the game is theirs, nowhere near the linespeed and aggression to start, simple errors and lacking efforts. Samoa knew they only had to survive the opening middles stint after the PNG game and they did that and proceeded to stick in the grind for the rest of the game. England seemed to always think it was just going to break open for them at some point but Samoa always kept them close.

Our International game has outgrown the 4N, it is a relic that served a purpose at a time but is best left in the past. The Oceanic Cup is the pathway forward for the Pacific and its breakout nations, it can be built into our 6N equivalent in the region. The Tongan emergence has created guaranteed crowds (at a fairly significant price point as well) for Tonga in Auckland, a 2023 Oceanic Cup needs to find the equivalent for Samoa in AUS/NZ to build a commercially attractive proposition for regular International games for Samoa. Then we need to do it again, and again, every year in the region these teams need to be playing multiple games to solidify the brands that are being built and provide the players with reasons to maintain their commitments long-term. England does need to be included somehow, they have to be given opportunities to play the other major nations both at home and away during each WC cycle. The priority for everyone however is a base of regular internationals against local competition with intercontinental tours supplementing this where possible, this is how we build brands, rivalries and consistently viable fixtures to underpin the international calendar.

Depends what you consider competitive, the average scoreline across those 12 matches is 31-12. IMO averaging a loss by over 3 converted tries is not competitive at all.

NSW have won 20/51 matches since 2006. Only one whitewash series occurred during that time. England/GB have lost 12 consecutive matches against Australia since 2006. To compare the two is more than disingenuous.

Yeah I think there's a few with mixed heritage, from the rest you've got mostly Samoans (Brown, Asofa-Solomona, Papali'i, Leota, Liu, Mulitalo) alongside Foran who is presumably of European descent.

Interesting statistic about the Kangaroos in this match - If Reuben Cotter makes the final 17 (assuming Mitchell, Addo-Carr and Wighton are locked in) then 4/17 (24%) of the Kangaroos will be Indigenous Australians, for reference Indigenous Australians make up 3.8% of Australia's total population. To put some further perspective on this, there have only been 14 Indigenous Australian Wallabies in their entire history and 4 of those converted to RU when they were fully professional RL players, a few more of those 14 were similarly poached while playing for junior RL representative sides. 12 of the Kiwis 19 man squad are Maori (63%) with Maori individuals making up 16.5% New Zealands population.

Yeah I think people are trying to claim nothing changed because it doesn't suit the narrative that competitiveness of other nations is irrelevant to how the Australian Public receives Internationals. In the mid-late 2000s the Kiwis were getting regularly destroyed by Australia to the point of multiple 50+ scores being put on them in a few years, things started to drop off here. Then you get to 2008 and the Kiwis do the unthinkable but less than 6 months later they get belted again 38-10 in front of a big crowd in Brisbane. Nonetheless over the next few years in the early 2010s Kangaroos games managed to pack out stadiums all across the country - Newcastle, Canberra, Melbourne, the Gold Coast and Townsville while also getting very good crowds across the ditch at Eden Park, NZ's solitary win during that time was the 2010 4N final while they still recorded the occasional big defeat such as 42-6 in Newcastle this was a much better period than 2000s. The 2014 4N started with a bang and a NZ win by packing out Brisbane, this was the start of a 3 win streak by NZ which led to a packed Newcastle and Soldout Perth in subsequent matches, both of which relatively convincing wins for Australia. Australia then had a small dominant period of NZ including a 34-8 win in the 2016 4N final, this was followed up by a poor crowd and another uncompetitive game in Canberra in the 2017 Anzac test. This led into the 2017 WC which saw some fairly poor attendances for an extremely dominant Australian side at the time, to be fair though we didn't play NZ during this tournament so we didn't have our biggest drawing nation as a fixture (England haven't drawn a crowd in Aus for years now - again due to no competition). We've only played once in Aus since then - in Wollongong with 18k in attendance, this is only 1k short of the record at the ground but tbf if should probably be considered poor given the capacity is 22k. All this really is the reason why the Oceanic Cup is so crucial for rebuilding the profile of Internationals in AUS/NZ, competitive games every single year held in every nation within the region allows us to build a consistent schedule to entice fans. None of this rotating 4N so the likes of Tonga/Samoa/PNG/Fiji miss out on games against AUS/NZ every couple of years and we only get 1-2 tests a year in the region as AUS/NZ head north. Exactly the sort of thing that kills momentum and reduces opportunities for the developing nations to test themselves against the best.

I said pre-tournament that I was surprised Te Maire Martin didn't make the squad, I think perhaps playing TMM at fullback with Manu in the centres would've helped their squad balance a touch by solving that one problematic centre position and TMM just playing a quality distribution role at the back. If you give Manu the licence to go wherever he wants (ala Turbo in Origin) then he can have the same sort of impact in attack from centre while also shoring up that edge defensively against the likes of a Latrell Mitchell. I can understand why Madge went with Manu, the potential ceiling on the bloke is phenomenal but he needs time in the fullback position and one tournament isn't enough to develop the skills required at test level. He may well put up another 300m+ tackle breaking performance to carry NZ to the win but it'll be a lot harder when our defence only really has to mark one man due to his lack of that final pass.

The neutral refs thing is just so frustratingly easy to fix that it shouldn't even be a conversation we're having, it's simple optics to stop biased supporters having a whinge. As for the supposed conspiracy of Australian refs protecting the Kangaroos, the Kiwis and Tonga have done fine with Australian refs against Australia in the past. It's almost as if one team hasn't been good enough and their supporters will engage in an unlimited amount of mental gymnastics before accepting that reality. Neutrality is a must nonetheless.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/league/300734118/world-cup-organisers-book-kiwis-on-flight-home-the-day-after-semifinal-against-kangaroos Same story as the Australian-based Irish by the looks of it, claims the organisers have predicted everyone's finishing positions pre-tournament and have had to fork up an extra 10k after Samoa upset Tonga in the QF.

Madge needs to be sent to the glue factory if he picks Jesse Bromwich, I'm holding out hope that he might finally miss out as he didn't return after his first stint on the weekend. Strange that Seb Kris never got a chance in the centres during the pool games, CNK has been struggling out at centre, even DWZ might be a better option at this point. For all the hype around Manu this tournament at fullback (and it is deserved) he really does kill too many links to the outside backs and definitely overplays his hand a touch, skills that he would develop with extended time in the position. Hopefully Leota and Niukore are back in the frame for them as well. Australia is an interesting one, we haven't really faced a decent side yet as the Fijians were very depleted and underdone in the first pool match. More importantly we haven't had to compete against quality forwards that would take it to our pack as the weakest point in the side, interesting to see how the challenge NZ will present there impacts the backline.

Not at all seeking to support above comments here but this "you only invest for the player pool" is a dreadful and very confusing argument - the only way for these countries to have quality rep teams is to get more players in the NRL and its feeder systems. The PNG Hunters have produced one NRL player in 9 years, if there was some sinister motive of investing only to increase the NRLs player pool the Hunters would've been cut by now, especially during Covid.

It's the same format we need to follow albeit scaled down due to less windows we currently have: Regional tournament to form the base providing consistent games in each region annually for fans and broadcasters to develop a consistent local schedule - 4-5 games each year guaranteed for all nations involved in their local region: Oceanic Cup for Pacific Euros for Europe Americas Cup for America MEA Championship for Middle East Tours to supplement this with an extra 2-3 games Pacific sides going to Europe and vice versa Lesser Europe/Americas/MEA crossing over where possible and appropriate You could tinker with the amount of games in each but the structure is the key, every nation playing at home and against competitors within their region every single year. Build credibility of regional tournaments and the brand of each nation within their region to promote a consistent calendar of RL everywhere in the world. Secondary requirement is tours to provide variation and competitive challenges for nations by crossing between regions, supplements the core of regional tournaments to round out the calendar.

Decision to pick Will Hopoate was absolutely mind-boggling and cost Tonga the game in the end. Delivered the last pass for the first try and then wasn't seen again for the next 40 mins before coming off, left Tonga with Koloamatangi in the halves and no creativity to support the forwards rolling through.

No current information on a Hunters youth team but there is a basis for the suggestion, at the start of 2020 a Hunters u20s side was either approved or well along the way to getting approved by the QRL for an entry into their Colts competition in 2021. Obviously we all know what happened during 2020 and the consequential seasons so those plans were shelved as QRL comps were disbanded and the Hunters then relocated to participate upon resumption of QCup. Haven't seen any further suggestions around the subject but that's also understandable on account of the Hunters still being located in Australia this season, hopefully these plans can be readopted as the club returns to normality from next season onwards. The Silktails for Fiji have been very successful so far in creating opportunities for their players, I saw the other day that Ipswich Jets have signed 6 of the 2022 squad to their QCup side for 2023, the close alignment with the Roosters has seen players cross over to their pathways as well which is a positive. Some of the recent comments from Abdo re the end of season International window IMO seemed to foreshadow the Oceania Cup as the priority for the NRL, certainly comments around their focus being fostering RL in our own part of the world seem to reinforce that. I too believe for us that has to be the priority, there's too many quality and improving sides in the SH now to allow the emerging pacific nations calendar to be dictated by a rotating tournament as the 4N was. If we get a consistent Oceanic Cup that rebuilds a competitive image of International RL then we can begin developing a competition that is attractive to broadcasters and consumers in the SH, just as importantly we now have guaranteed sellouts or at the very least a financially attractive following for Tonga/Samoa in Auckland and PNG in Port Moresby. Then we can fit tours to the NH and NH sides touring the SH where possible to supplement the OCup as the basis of that calendar.

It was only 3 years ago that PNG carved up GB, winning by 18 points. Sure, PNG got hurt by a couple of injuries at the beginning of the tournament but the reality is that this is a very good England side, I don't think it's unfair to say that some of these young talents emerging during the tournament will be looked upon very favourably at the end of their careers. The Hunters have brought PNG quite far in a short period of time, they've had a very tough run throughout the pandemic and the consequential relocation, paired with a coach who has done a very questionable job with the sides development in the last couple of years. That coach has now left after last season and the Hunters managed to return home for their final match of the year so from this point forward that pathway should begin returning to normal. There's reports that a few of this WC's Kumuls are set to earn trial contracts with NRL clubs off the back of this tournament and the Dolphins have now established a pathway with the Hunters that will see 4 players given a pre-season train and trial contract with 2 remaining for the entire season. Things are moving in the right direction for PNG, schoolboys pathways have begun to be established within the country and the next step will be introduction of a junior rep side into the QRL systems to expose younger players to NRL clubs. Fiji are also primarily a domestic side, they've been the most depleted by injuries and other circumstances of any side within this tournament but they just managed to push the top ranked side in the world in the WC QF. Notwithstanding the current FNRL/Silktails issues that pathway is already looking as if it will be more successful than the Hunters have been in getting more domestic Fijians through to NRL squads. The rewards of this pathway will only really start to come into fruition by France 2025 with a significant difference a reasonable expectation by the time 2029 rolls around, genuine work to establish pathways to first-grade for developing nations takes time but we've got two well on their way to closing that gap.

Really not sure what you're trying to say here, as head of the ARLC and Abdo as CEO of the NRL these are the blokes who literally made the decisions that are being discussed here. Are we meant to pretend some figure that doesn't exist made these decisions so you can feel a little less offended on V'landys behalf? Really unsure of the relevance of your comments, are we not allowed to criticise or discuss the inputs of administrators?

No arguments from me about the failings of England in relation to the international game, their stance was made abundantly clear when the Exiles/Combined Nations was revived - if it ain't AUS/NZ then England doesn't want any part in it, especially when supporting the rest of Europe is concerned. Saving grace on England's behalf is if they can finally win the WC with this quality side they've got now, decades of no competition from England set the international game back a long way. A Tongan win against Australia followed by an England (or Tongan) WC win over AUS/NZ should help to re-engage the momentum that was being built from 2017-2019.

For reference the 2017 Quarters were: Australia v Samoa, Darwin - 13,473 (Sellout) Tonga v Lebanon, Christchurch - 8,309 NZ v Fiji, Wellington - 12,713 England v PNG, Melbourne - 10,563 2013: NZ v Scotland, Leeds - 16,207 Australia v USA, Wrexham - 5,726 England v France, Wigan - 22,276 Samoa v Fiji, Warrington - 12,766

None of the players in this squad are associated with the Silktails currently, Karawalevu (Roosters), Tagituimua (Mounties NSW Cup), Drodrolagi (Elite One) and Seci (Manly) are all ex-players but the FNRL refused to pick any players currently associated. The Silktails can't play in Fiji, the FNRL has refused to recognise them and tore up the agreement they had to play their home games in Fiji. https://www.rnz.co.nz/international/pacific-news/468138/stoush-blamed-on-exclusion-of-silktails-players-from-fiji-world-cup-squad

Yeah Fiji are probably the most under-strength side in the entire tournament, very much cruelled by injuries, suspension and the Silktails situation. Not sure how it gets resolved but the Silktails not being recognised by the FNRL is a massive problem as the refusal by the FNRL to pick any Silktails players wipes a massive chunk of their semi-pro playing pool.

A competitive game sure is a sight for sore eyes, many thanks to Fiji for that performance.