bowes
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Posts posted by bowes
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Hemel have pulled out of the CLS East Division now.
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On 13/11/2021 at 18:40, gingerjon said:
It seems that a selling point to be a korfball player in England would be that as it's a minority sport in every country it's played that not only international honours, but actual medals, could be forthcoming. I see that England finished fourth in the most recent Euros for example.
It's a good comparison in terms of numbers. Looking at the maps and clubs, I'd say they're pretty close but I suspect you're right that korfball has more.
Anyway, I don't much care, as Dunkerque fluked past Nancy last night and I was very happy as a result.
I played korfball, I ended up playing for my university (Birmingham) in the national championships, though we did finish last.
From memory the sport has a relatively strong set up in London and Kent but in the rest of the country it's distribution is very varied. If there's a local university playing then you'll get a local league that is a mixture of university sides plus local clubs set up by graduates from the university. If there isn't a local university playing then there's usually no teams at all.
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45 minutes ago, JonM said:
The "ordinary" match featuring South Shields is interesting - they weren't voted into the league until 1902 as far as I know, so this might have been a friendly right at the formation of the club?
They played a season of friendlies the year before joining the league
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Dewsbury Celtic seem to have a long history given they’re listed in the Heavy Woollen District League above
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1 hour ago, Lounge Room Lizard said:
Anybody know anything about teams like Wallsend, South Shields.South Shields St.P, Parton. Werneth, Kendal Hornets etc who played in the challenge cup first round or played the game in 1903?
Nobody seems to know anything about the team Thrum Hall. Halifax played at the Thrum Hall from 1886 when the first game was against Hull. But there is no info on who the Thrum Hall team was in 1903 or where they played.
South Shields played in the Northern Rugby League division 2 and Wallsend played in the Cumberland League. Werneth had played in the Lancashire second competition but by this point were playing in the reserve league.
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12 minutes ago, marklaspalmas said:
Interesting. There was more solidarity between clubs in Lancashire? Perhaps also this led to a greater 'wastage' as more fledgling NU clubs seemed to disappear in Lancashire rather than Yorkshire. Perhaps not.
In Yorkshire, are you saying that this push for P&R came pre 1895? I thought the RFU wanted nothing to do with any sort of 'league'. Or do you mean the NU?
This whole period just seems to be an absolutely vital one in terms of the growth and development of RL. Obviously many mistakes were made by people & clubs working at cross purposes without really understanding what they were doing.
They had a league structure in rugby union at the time before rugby league was formed but only in the north. Yorkshire had a 12 team league (the 11 Northern Union founders plus Dewsbury) and did have lower leagues. The bottom two teams in the top league had to apply for re-election and when Morley and Castleford (top two in the Second Competition) had their bid for promotion knocked back they appealed to the RFU. I think the RFU said they'd shut the league down unless they allowed Morley and Castleford in.
Lancashire had smaller leagues but some kind of promotion and relegation (based on playoffs like northern union adopted I believe). However, these leagues collapsed quite rapidly after the northern union was founded.
I think Lancashire saw more wastage of teams in part because clubs were based in areas too small to support professionalism.
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1 hour ago, marklaspalmas said:
Great lists. Thanks. What happened in Yorkshire in 1897/98 season?
Basically the lower division Yorkshire based clubs were slower to switch to Northern Union than the Lancashire based ones. This is in large part due to the split from rugby union being for different reasons either side of the Pennines. West of the Pennines the split was primarily due to professionalism and there were close ties between elite clubs and those in lower divisions. In Yorkshire a major factor was the top division clubs wanting a closed shop league, whilst the RFU wanted to introduce promotion and relegation.
In short there may have been local competitions but there was no second competition that season.
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Unlike the Lancashire line ups these aren't final positions. Also I can't vouch for the accuracy of these to the same extent as the Lancashire ones as they're taken from many different sources (in particular the 1899-1900 season)
1898-99
Yorkshire Second Competition (East)
Featherstone
Goole
Hull Kingston Rovers
Kinsley
Normanton
Outwood Parish Church
Ripon
Rothwell
York
Yorkshire Second Competition (West)
Birstall
Bowling
Dewsbury
Eastmoor
Elland
Idle
Luddendenfoot
Morley
Todmorden
Hull Kingston Rovers were overall champions and defeated Heckmondwike to take their place in the senior competition
1899-1900
Yorkshire Second Competition (East)
Alverthorpe
Eastmoor
Featherstone
Goole
Kinsley
Normanton
Ossett
Outwood Parish Church
Pontefract
Rothwell
York
Yorkshire Second Competition (West)
Birstall
Dewsbury
Elland
Hebden Bridge
Heckmondwike
Idle
Kirkstall
Luddendenfoot
Shipley
Sowerby Bridge
Todmorden
Windhill
Normanton were overall champions but lost to Liversedge in the promotion/relegation match
1900-01
Yorkshire Second Competition (East)
Alverthorpe
Eastmoor
Featherstone
Goole
Kinsley
Kirkstall
Normanton
Ossett
Outwood Parish Church
Pontefract
York
York Melbourne
Yorkshire Second Competition (West)
Bingley
Dewsbury (started the season in the East division)
Hebden Bridge
Heckmondwike
Idle
Keighley
Otley
Sowerby Bridge
Shipley
Todmorden
Windhill
Birstall (withdrew midseason)
Luddendenfoot (withdrew midseason)
Elland (failed to start the season)
Teams in bold elected to the Yorkshire Senior Competition. I don't know the fate of all these clubs but a single division was formed which ended up named the Yorkshire Senior Competition that lasted for a while as a non-league semi-professional competition
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As promised:
1897-98
Lancashire Second Competition
Barrow
Millom
Ulverston
Radcliffe
Lancaster
Barton
Birkenhead Wanderers
Walkden
Altrincham (called up from 3rd competition to replace Dukinfield)
Fleetwood
Crompton (withdrew midseason)
St Helens Recs (withdrew mid-season; this St Helens Recs is not the same club as the later one)
Lancashire Third Competition
Werneth
Leigh Shamrocks
Whitworth
Rochdale Rangers
Warrington St Mary's
Mossley (withdrew mid-season)
Boothstown (withdrew mid-season)
Blackley Rangers (failed to start the season)
Cheetham Hill (failed to start the season)
Morecambe defeated Barrow to retained their Senior Competition status
1898-99
Lancashire Second Competition
Millom
Barrow
Lancaster
Ulverston
Altrincham
Radcliffe
Birkenhead Wanderers
Fleetwood
Blackpool
Barton (withdrew mid-season)
Walkden (withdrew mid-season)
Millom defeated Morecambe to take their place in the senior competition
1899-1900
Lancashire Second Competition
Barrow
Werneth
Morecambe
Birkenhead Wanderers
Whitworth
Altrincham
Lancaster
Fleetwood
Radcliffe
Ulverston
Dalton
Barrow defeated Tyldesley to take their place in the senior competition
1900-01
Lancashire Second Competition
Morecambe
Birkenhead Wanderers
Lancaster
Altrincham
Radcliffe
Werneth
Whitworth
Tyldesley
Leigh Shamrocks
Fleetwood (withdrew mid-season)
Teams in bold were elected to the Lancashire Senior Competition. Werneth joined the Lancashire Combination (reserve league). Leigh Shamrocks joined the Central Lancashire League. Whitworth and Tyldesley folded
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Leigh missed an extra season after WW2 because they lost their ground and nearly folded. Both Bradford and Hunslet have folded midseason and then reboundedSo out of the 22 original clubs only Batley,Bradford,Halifax,Hull,Leeds,Oldham,St Helens,Wakefield and Wigan have competed in every season. That's 9 teams with Brighouse,Broughton,Liversedge,Manningham,Runcorn,Stockport and Tydelsley no longer involved in the game. Leaving 6 teams Huddersfield,Hunslet,Warrington,Leigh,Rochdale and Widnes who I'm guessing have only missed seasons due to war years.
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It will have to wait til the New Years Eve or New Years Day but I can let you know this in full when I get home. I've got information for Yorkshire when I get home but one of the seasons is a little sketchy.Belle Vue are the same club as Broughton.
Which Lancashire league did the others play in and which seasons?
Lancashire had a second competition (and one off third competition) with a playoff for promotion to the senior competition. Yorkshire had two second competitions (west and east) with the winners playing off for the right to challenge the bottom team in the senior competition. After the second competitions were abolished there was a semi-pro Yorkshire Senior Competition from which teams could apply for promotion (ie Pontefract, Castleford and Featherstone Rovers). Lancashire semi-pro clubs outside the senior leagues played against reserve teams (Wigan Highfield started there). I have no information on these leagues
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So will there be a larger Championship?
The Championship clubs are going to vote on various areas of the proposal soon so we'll know then. Usually with licensing they try to let more teams in to mean the borderline cases get in but with the number of clubs recently in administration they may not want to.
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Sounds like they'll have a licensed Championship 1 below the licensed Championship then have a north/south split. How many north wide divisions I guess depends on how many NCL clubs switch.
I didn't go so I don't know the full detail
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Any idea what format the changes will take/some of the proposed changes themselves?
Rumoured were a franchised single division Championship with 2-3 national divisions (maybe north west, north east and south below them) above separate regions split from the RLC (but NW and Yorkshire incorporating any other clubs that switch).
However, this is far from the confirmed format and there's big discussions today at the Community Congress so expect to here much more after that as for instance the semi-pro game might not go with the proposals or some NCL clubs might stay winter or varying amounts from BARLA Regional leagues may or may not switch among many other things that need discussing so I can't be any more specific
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Teams yes, clubs no.
See SL franchising threads for clarification.
They're no worse clubs than Blackpool. But on this front they would compare unfavourable with Skolars who have reserves, juniors and their own ground.
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Thats assuming they use the same players they have now, I'm sure if any club were to enter they would recruit players to suit that level. Unlike some already in it who are content to just have the kudos. IMO
Yeah especially for them they'd be in the right area to tap into players. If you joined you'd presumably have to cast your net wider than Hertfordshire, though between you and St Albans that's already some very strong players (not seen you playing for a few years but obviously seen St Albans in action a few weeks ago pretty impressively), but still possible if harder since the restrictions on Aussies (the reason Skolars have declined so much and one of the reasons Gateshead have IMO)
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There's no possible new clubs next year unless a backer decides to start a random club up from scratch.
2012 the whole set up will change so no point doing anything drastic next year.
While Bramley and Warrington Wizards wouldn't have much difficulty against the very low standard of Skolars and Gateshead they don't meet other criteria under the current rules.
Come to think of it Lezignan were talking of applying for the Championship but doubt the RFL will go for it til maybe 2012 depending on the format
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The Championship is fast becoming a Yorkshire League....next season you have Halifax, Featherstone, Batley, Dewsbury, Sheffield, Hunslet and York plus 1 each from Cumbria, Cheshire, Lancs and France
How on Earth are you including Leigh in Lancashire but not Widnes? Makes no logic whatsoever either they're both Lancashire or neither is.
That's before we get onto the facts that if Yorkshire exists then Barrow is in Lancashire making it: Yorkshire 7, Lancashire 3, France 1
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But administrative areas is exactly what counties are. If we're going to start claiming, then we (the West Riding of Yorkshire) will have Saddleworth, the Trough of Bowland and Sedberg back for starters.
Administratively Cheshire doesn't exist at all, there's West Cheshire & Chester, East Cheshire, Halton and Warrington with no county council. Likewise Merseyside doesn't exist administratively it is separate boroughs one of which is St Helens
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I was actually talking about their Academy, if they have one ?
They have Barrow Laikers in the National Youth League but nothing professional
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And Barrow ?
Their reserves packed in midseason
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I often enjoy his posts, and he contributes a lot of information, but he does have a tendency to 'go off on one' and present his opinions as absolute fact (don't know where the hell he gets that from).
In this case there is only one possible absolute fact that RU is wider spread than RL at the professional level. You can't have an opinion on it.
An opinion is whether RL will ever catch up with RU on this spread or not
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RU certainly is strong at this level in Yorkshire but if these clubs do have second teams won't they already be in the league structure at a lower level.There's no need to count them twice
Actually no 2nds (3rds, 4ths...) play in merit leagues.
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If there is so much interest in the game, wouldn't this transfer into Sky viewing figures?
I am not talking about Internationals, I have no issue with extensive coverage of that, but when Aviva Premiership gets this extensive coverage, despite the clear lack of national interest, then it is an issue.
One issue not often mentioned is RU traditionally had more senior clubs up north than in any other region so because there were so many near each other there was less support for any individual one and thus it was harder to attract enough support when the game went pro (Leeds are a merger of Headingley and Roundhay think of in RL terms how big crowd the equivalent would get and would supporters of other West Yorkshire clubs go watch them?) Twickenham and surrounding areas was the other area with too many clubs hence mergers, relocations and clubs dropping down the leagues, historically there was not a single senior club in the entire South East outside of London but 10 in London!
HEMEL STAGS.
in The Community Rugby League Forum
Posted
No, I had a look in case they'd dropped into the East League or London Merit League but couldn't find them on either table.