Trojan

The more the merrier for me. Perhaps we can produce a tough inner core for the England team. Then we may stand a chance of at least running the Aussies close if not beating them in a series. That's what happened in the late eighties early nineties. With our top players playing in Oz we came within a whisker of beating them in series several times. I suppose Jamie Peacock is too old now, but I think he (and we) would have benefitted from his going to Oz from the Bulls instead of Leeds. Perhaps Tomkins and Eastmond could be next?

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I used to know a 'Fax fan quite well, (this is in the eighties) and he regarded the Bradford game as the most important of their season. I suppose 'Fax have more derby possibilities than most given the proximity of Bradford, Rochdale, Oldham, Huddersfield and Keighley. Presumably in the old days when 'Fax and Fartown took it in turns to play in the Lancashire League, the Oldham and Rochdale fixtures were their derbies.

In 1938 they attracted a then record crowd of 54k for a RL Championship Final to Elland Road. The game was moved there from Wakey and they used the Parkside posts. Must count as the biggest derby game ever.

May not be the biggest as far as crowds go, but in terms of intensity and passion Fev/Cas must be no.1. Trouble is they're a bit few and far between these days. And when Cas get kicked out of SL Fev will take their place so there'll still be no derby games.

I believe Eddie Waring built a Dewsbury championship winning side based on guest players during wartime.

I've been away in Whitby, and am just catching up. One point I would repeat though is that everyone writes about crowds on here as though they are a static commodity. "The crowd watching team a. can be cajoled in to watching team b." Crowds are not static commodities they are dynamic, their composition changes. I would guess that had Fev beaten Wakefield at Huddersfield in 1998, and gained access to SL many of those who now go to Belle Vue would be coming to PO Road. They wouldn't be deserting Wakey it's just that at the time they were not RL supporters, some of them perhaps weren't even born. The same applies to 'Fax and the Giants and Bulls. Probably to Widnes, Saints and Warrington too. It is the removal of the possibility of one's team being able to compete with the big boys IMO that has depressed the crowds in the Chamionship, and possibly deterred potential supporters from watching Championship rugby, and the absence of anything to play for in the second half of the season has possibly depressed crowds in the lower end of SL. Plus of course taken away the spice, the bite of fear or anticipation.

No it wouldn't have meant the death of the game. It might have meant the death of some clubs, (many clubs even) from what we now know Wigan for certain. Probably others too. Not Leeds, not Hull, probably not Saints. But the game would have continued and clubs been resurrected like the Welsh Union clubs were. Perhaps a stronger leaner fitter game, but more importantly without being hooked on Murdoch. The reformed clubs, born out of necessity would perhaps have been the merged ones suggested by the Murdoch deal, but crucially they would not have been perceived to have been forced on the various clubs' fans but grown from the fans' need for a team to support. It's all "ifs and ands" but I thought at the time that the deal would be bad long term for RL, and IMO it has been.

But Warrington, Hull and Huddersfield are not really short of money, are they? Perhaps when the likes of Wakey, or Cas, or Salford knock out one of the big boys the romance will be back. I'm not holding my breath, turkeys don't usually vote for an early Christmas.

Because Mo stampeded them. Presumably with threats and possibly bribes (for the clubs) of big money. We weren't there, we don't know. What we do know is that it was all decided in a couple of weeks, not really a way to plan long term for a fairly major sport. We're still suffering from Mo. Wigan were still suffering from him when they sold Central Park, fortunately that nice Mr Whelan bailed them out. Who's going to bail RL out?

In 1987 Fev and Oldham were relegated. Oldham knocked Wigan out of the cup the same season. There is no way that an upset like that would happen today - not Oldham knocking Wigan out, but a bottom SL side knocking out one of the big boys. The playing field has never been level, but at the moment the slope in favour of the big clubs is precipitous. For me all this talk of franchising being a way to expand the game is a red herring. If the expansion clubs threaten the hegomony of the big names, then somehow or other they'll be stamped upon. Unless franchising is abandoned and abandoned quickly we'll really be up sh!t creek. The big clubs don't seem to be able to see that they are digging a pit and sooner or later they, along with the rest of us are going to fall into that pit.

But in those days a club like Fev stood a chance of winning the CC. In fact they did. And in '86 Cas won it, and in '87 'Fax won it. What chance have they got today? None - that's why the CC crowds have declined. And the lack of P&R, of games that matter is why the Championship crowds are declining and why at the lower levels SL crowds are also declining. The spice of the upset has gone from the CC and the edge of P&R has gone from SL anad the Championship. Unless we sort it out one way or another - in ten years there'll be no game to sort out. Steve Fox in this week's LE humourously perhaps, points the way things might go if we go on the way we are going.

There've been GB games at the Reebok too, and Loftus Road, for that matter. There were also cup semi finals and JP semis and finals at the old Burnden Park. And of course the old Boothferry Park. Didn't Wigan play Warrington at Green Bay Packers ground?

The fact that we're still having this argument three years down the line surely illustrates that large numbers of RL fans are unhappy with the type of game franchising has produced - a game with no "edge" to it. How would it be if at Wimbledon they'd said to Venus Williams's (or Federer for that matter) opponent, "Sorry kid, but Venus is a regular here, so until you win a few more semi finals we're not letting you play the big one, we're letting her (him) play it instead" Effectively that's what franchising does.

Ah. I knew that both League fixtures in the 87/88 season were in '88, because a. I went to both and b. I've a video of the Watersheddings game. I also went to Old Trafford. I must admit I don't remember the Maine Road game. Both Oldham and Fev must have been relegated that season, even though I remember Oldham knocking Wigan out of the cup in the snow.

I don't remember Fev playing Oldham at Maine Road in 1987. I remember them playing Oldham at Old Trafford in 1988. They played their home league game in 1988 at P O Road and the away game a week later at Watersheddings.

Does that include my team Featherstone Rovers? We were in the old Div I and excluded from SL for the now non existent Paris. At the time we were drawing better crowds than Wakefield. Since Wakefield have been in Superleague (in controversial circumstances) their crowds have improved and ours have declined. If we had P&R this season there's a good chance we'd be promoted. But we won't be. If we were promoted and couldn't hack it and were relegated - ce la vie. We'd at least have had our shot, which is more than we've had so far. Promotion and relegation is the meat and drink of British sport. Any game without the carrot of promotion and the stick of relegation loses something for me.

There's also of course the example of the crowd for the Wakey/Cas decider in 2006. Plus as plenty on here have testified, it's not the same game without the prospect of promotion or the threat of relegation. Admit it Parky - you're wrong. Franchising will, given enough time kill the game stone dead, then where will your expansion come from? Promotion and relegation are like the heat in a curry, it's just as nourishing without the heat, but the heat makes it appetising - it's the spice.

That is the point. Rugby League crowds are not static with the self same people coming week in week out. They are dynamic. Because whether we like it or not, people die, become too ill or old or infirm to attend any more, or they move away. These missing fans have to be replaced. With new younger fans, but if you're a young potential RL supporter living in Wakey Met, who would you support? Wakey or Cas who are Super League sides and get max publicity and appear on TV fairly regularly, or lowly Fev? - And let's face it until recently we have been pretty lowly. If that night in 1998 Fev had won instead of losing, I reckon we'd have made at least as good a fist of SL as Wakey did. In fact possibly better, because given what happened down the line to Wakey with their financial scandal, and new ground scandal, it's possible they without the SL would have ceased to exist. In the eighties Fax who've been described on here as a "small" club were attracting 8-10k to Thrum Hall. Since their decline their crowds have diminished. The young fans described above have gone to watch the Bulls and the Giants. Whether they can recover I couldn't say. But if they remain in the Championship much longer I somehow doubt it. Halifax was a major RL centre along with Oldham and look at them both today. Unless we can give these clubs' supporters a better hope than that every three years they'll be able to apply for SL, IMO they're in danger of disappearing. All for the tenuous hope of "expansion" - much good it's done us so far.

Look at the times though Chris - threatened pit closures, 3m unemployed. People afraid for their jobs, not much spare money - and a Wembley trip to pay for. All explanations. But to get back to the point and John Kear: ""The reason that has made me change my mind about relegation being a performance issue is when you get 10,000 plus at Headingley Carnegie watching a rugby union game

Hull, Huddersfield, Hull KR, Cas., Salford Widnes were only relegated because of the rule allowing Catalans to stay up, they didn't finish bottom. Taking relegation away is like making a tightrope walker walk along his rope on the ground. Ok he can do it and it takes great skill, and I couldn't do it without falling off. But if he falls off so what? Would anyone pay money to watch him?