EagleEyePie

I'm quite fortunate in the sense that Wigan have two relatively active fans forums, one on RLFans and the other being Wigan Warriors Fans, so there's always a place for specific club focused debate. Even having two can be a bit tiresome when you end up having similar conversations on both and end up cutting and pasting responses from one to the other to save some time. I still find myself being most active on the main forums here though as you get a much more varied debate and it's well moderated. I reckon being in my early 30's puts me as one of the younger users on this forum and the others I use but as you said the other platforms aren't really as good for debating. I still use Twitter but often find myself just writing generic stuff after the game because the character limit doesn't allow for more detail, then only really interacting with Wigan fans, and then there's the passive aggressive 'quote retweets' that might gain attention from opposing fans, but it's more about one upmanship than debate. As for Facebook groups, they are all the proof needed that making people use their real names online doesn't make them behave better. It's an absolute cesspool that makes Twitter seem civilised. Whenever Wigan would loan a young player to a Championship or League One club I'd visit their forum and ask for opinions but there aren't as many club specific ones around and many aren't well used. Twitter can be useful but it's hard to direct a tweet to a specific set of fans unless they follow you. We should appreciate this type of forum while we can.

I think that's fair given the more lenient punishments that all offences receive this year. The ref must have decided it was direct contact with the head at the time to send him off but for me it's pretty clear it wasn't and the initial contact was shoulder on shoulder, which caused the movement to the neck. It seems the disciplinary panel agree as he was charged with a high tackle but found guilty of dangerous contact due to flexion of the neck from the hit. In one sense he's unlucky because it wasn't direct contact to the head and that tends to be necessary for a red but at the same time the movement of the neck in those tackles makes me wince and if it's worth 2 matches then a red is a fair result regardless of where the initial contact was. The game has to evolve and the fact is you have to make sure you're going to complete the tackle fairly before you try to smash someone.

It was a crazy game for sure. Hopefully from a Wigan point of view it's one that we'll look back on at the end of the season and wonder how it happened, rather than looking back and not being surprised. Leeds certainly are dangerous when they go down to 12 men though. You've got to give them credit for how they react to adversity (though given their discipline over the last few years I'm sure it's a case of practice makes perfect). Wigan should have been aware that as soon as that happened Leeds would throw caution to the wind and take a few more risks. Smith had probably his worst game for Wigan, pretty much gifting Leeds 3 tries, and Cust joining in the party late on just made things a bit embarrassing. Still, there were some really soft tries conceded in the middle of the field so you can't put all the blame on the intercepts. Interestingly I thought our pack was poor but statistically they were much better than Leeds, at least in terms of metres made. I think part of the problem last night was they would make the carries and get us into position but then it was almost like job done, now the ball goes wide. We've got a habit of just wanting to get the ball wide to French and assuming there's going to be space. I didn't see much movement off the ball from the middle players. I didn't see them do much that would make a defender thing hold on, I better keep an eye on these forwards in case they make an angled run. There's no threat of an offload from a middle to keep the defence compact and interested in the ruck area. Now part of that is probably down to the fact we played a lot of the game with only one recognised prop on the field. When KPP and Mago were on the field they made some strong carries but Mago is too lazy to do much work off the ball and KPP isn't used to playing down the middle. The try Leeds scored by going through KPP pretty much summed up the issues he was having defensively as he's just not used to defending those crash balls, he's mostly part of a sliding defence when playing back row or centre. There weren't many players who played well for Wigan other than Havard and Shorrocks, who somehow looked the most competent of our playmakers with a good try assist and a couple of smart passes that came close to tries. I hope we bounce back and put in a good performance next week. We've got an opportunity to put things right immediately which is good, and if we were playing any team other than Leeds I'd expect us to do it, but I just think Leeds are a team that have our number. They are a bit like Hull KR for us in recent years, they seem to have our number. Maybe we'll have to wait until the week after to bounce back. Oh wait...

A good performance from Hull FC. Spirited in attack in the first half and dogged in defence in the second. It must be difficult to turn around a losing run but the last two games have shown that their poor run was a bit of an anomaly. From a Wigan point of view I think we lost it with indiscipline in the first half where penalties led to tries. We struggled to raise our game in the first half and Hull looked to have that bit more motivation. Having a makeshift half is definitely hampering us. Plenty of effort from Shorrocks but he doesn't always make the right calls. I thought he looked much better when he moved to 13 in the second half but then the problem was Powell was anonymous in the halves. It makes it too easy for the defence to follow the play because they only have to focus on where Smith and French are. It's also a shame we didn't really have much to offer from the bench. Mago worked hard to his credit but 5-10 minutes from Hill and a late cameo from Nsemba meant we were asking a lot of players like Havard and Smithies who have got through a mountain of work in the last few weeks. The lack of middles is going to start biting us in the next few weeks. Also, smart play from Trueman at the end. That probably won the game.

You're right about that, but there's a reason why Origin draws so many people in that don't necessarily support either side and that's the quality of the game that's being shown. We could at least create something that's top Super League standard or a little bit above but it's unlikely to happen. The problem is we've hundreds of examples of nothing much happening with mid-season internationals too. I don't think it's fair to separate a Roses origin game from the wider context of the sport in this country. It seems likely that no matter what fixture you stick in the middle of the season it's going to be poorly supported. My argument would be that potentially a Roses game has some benefits because you could have almost an entire 40-man training squad involved with at least some competitive element to the fixture, as opposed to possibles v probables which is just a training session. The reason I don't think a return to Roses Origin is worth considering is because clubs and players don't treat a mid-season international against France seriously, they definitely didn't take the Exiles game seriously and there's little chance they'd take any other type of fixture seriously, so there's never any chance of any concept getting off the ground, including a full international.

Wouldn't most NRL fans prefer their club side to win ahead of their Origin side? Surely that has more to do with the time that's invested in following clubs sides compared to how much time would be spent following a county team. It's not like it's an either/or. You can follow club, origin and national team passionately if you choose to do so. People will get invested in a good event and if they don't have a natural affiliation many will choose one. For me the obstacle that can't be overcome is the same one that prevents our international game from growing. Apathy and an inability to successfully market the game outside a few already established events.

Wigan winning the Grand Final of course, but I don't know what the point of the question is as the answer was fairly obvious.

I'd be more excited by a Lancashire-Yorkshire match than an England-Exiles (or Combined Nations) match and to be honest probably more excited than an England-France fixture. But then I'm different to most people in that in terms of identity I'd see myself as a Wiganer and Lancastrian before English or British.

I don't think the issue of players 'having an affinity with' the fixture is necessarily a decisive issue. I have no affinity with either NSW or Queensland but I love Origin because of the quality of the games. There are players with no real link to either state that would love the opportunity to play in Origin. There are people who avidly support one side or the other without having any real link. Not being an Aussie I'd love to know what the rivalry between Queensland and NSW is really like. Is there really such a huge rivalry between people who live in the two states? More so than rivalries between any other neighbour states or counties around the world? For me it's the quality of the game that is the selling point. I always enjoy the Origin game at academy level but surely it should be a terrible game because all of the Lancashire players are under 19 and are too young to have any affinity with Lancashire? The reality is the players relish the challenge and take on the rivalry. For me the issue is we will never build up a Lancashire-Yorkshire fixture to anything like a competitive fixture for the same reason the Exiles game never really took off, and the same reason the fixture against France will probably see several players dropping out of the squad at short notice. The club game is king in this country and the clubs don't want to see their players get injured mid-season. I think it's also fair to say that there are players with that mentality too, that would be happy to miss out on an England game and have a bit of a break and be fresh for the next few Super League games. There's not enough prestige in the international game and so creating a new fixture as a 'proving ground' isn't going to have prestige either. So you could come up with the Origin fixture again but players will drop out of the squad just like the Exiles game and the game will be missing the stars that would be required to make it a competitive and worthwhile fixture.

Those absences are the reason why last nights match will have little bearing on the next fixtures between the two sides. It's a great effort from Wigan because of the loss of Singleton on the night and having Powell at 13 and KPP at prop for a significant part of the second half. When Wire get their full strength pack back it's going to be a completely different challenge and almost certainly different tactics from both coaches. Wire's missing forwards helped big time because we could win the forward battle and play a more conservative game. Add those absent players for Wire into the mix and I don't think we can play the same way. While it's a good night for the Wigan pack, with Cooper gone for the season, Singleton possibly out for a bit and not in form anyway and Mago only really capable of 10 minutes either side of half time, it's clear that what we produced last night was pretty much the best we've got for the rest of the year with a heavy reliance on Ellis, Havard and Byrne. Warrington clearly have a lot more to add.

I was one of them, but in the last few weeks Ellis has raised his performance levels to well beyond what he produced last year, Havard has raised his game and Byrne has shown consistency with his good performances that he never did before. I think most Wigan fans would have said the pack isn't good enough unless the younger players show real improvement and we get more from the experienced props. The 3 players mentioned have provided that. Isa and Pearce-Paul have also found their form which has been massive for us. They were part of our leaky right edge early in the year but have tightened things up to the point where they are both making big contributions. I don't think our pack is as good as Wire, Saints or Catalans if they were all fully fit and in form, but collectively the defensive effort has been huge from the team over the last few weeks and I think we're back to being greater than the sum of our parts.

The ball bounced up after being grounded. The ball never left O'Neill's hand at any point and the replays were pretty conclusive on that. Offside was more questionable though the kickers boot seemed level with O'Neill which would make him onside. Minikin's try has nothing to do with downward pressure, it was deemed he lost the ball before grounding it. You can see the ball drop down from the hand about an inch from the ground but I don't think it was conclusive. Pretty sure the on-field call was a no-try so the ref must have seen the movement of the ball too but unless I'm mistaken about the on-field call that's one of those that goes with the ref's call because there's nothing to conclusively prove either way. If it went up as a try it's probably given.

From the injury update on the Wigan website I'm not an expert but that sounds pretty horrific. Really feel for him. It's a tough injury to have at any age but for someone who is 34 it's going to be a struggle to get back to where he was. The game really needs to get tough on hip drop and similar tackles. It certainly looked dangerous from Knowles but he'll get the chance to defend himself. I thought the one by Smithies looked pretty nasty too and one match doesn't really do it justice when you saw the same type of tackle getting 2 or 3 games last year. I know they've reduced the severity of punishments across the board for this year but I really think they should look again at this type of tackle. I know it often looks innocuous and it's never intentional but I don't think it's a method of tackling that is integral to the game. Most of the cases I've seen seem to be due to laziness or desperation but greater care in what players do with their body weight in tackles is needed because this is arguably worse than the canonball tackle issues of the recent past.

Tom Johnstone! What a play!

Good try for Romano but that's pretty poor from Mata'utia. He's no Toby King that's for sure.

What was the penalty for? He didn't hit him high. Were they offside?

The penalty try seems like a pretty straightforward decision. Currie knocks Keighran down before touching the ball. Keighran is almost certainly getting to that if not pushed by Currie. No idea why Barrie McDermott was so unhappy with it.

Absolutely delighted after that game. That's what rugby league is all about. A beautiful day, a packed stadium, a full blooded derby. I was surprised in how well we muscled up in the pack. I know they were missing Walmsley but I've always felt we deal with him quite well but struggle to deal with players like Paasi, Lees, Mata'utia and Sironen. A lot of credit has to go to the outside backs and the work that they did down the middle of the field because it's not really a strength of our forwards. King, Miski, Marshall and Wardle all busied themselves and I think that paid off in how well our middles defended. I don't know how Joe Shorrocks wasn't given either the Sky man of the match or the Wigan sponsors man of the match. Considering he was in a position he's never started in before I thought he was excellent. The try saving tackle was outstanding but also his positioning to sweep up kicks by the try line (he was like a natural halfback) the way he tracked back to make some crucial tackles and even intercept from a break. His ball movement was excellent too. It was a big call from Matt Peet considering Powell seemed like the more obvious choice but he's been totally vindicated. Smith controlled the game really well, French was a threat when he needed to be. It's fair to say that Saints weren't at their best though (or at least not compared to last season's best). Lomax was a threat when he got the opportunity and Hurrell caused problems (his defence is shocking though) down our left edge. Roby also made a difference with the speed of the ruck but there was just something lacking from Saints. You could say the same for Wigan as we weren't hugely threatening but with Cust and Field out you can understand that. The bad news is the injury to Cooper looked a bad one and that's going to cost us big time. He's not been playing long minutes recently but he's still important to us and had a good game today. I thought the introduction of Singleton highlighted just how little depth we have in the front row. He came on, messed up his first involvement and was taken off about 10 minutes later. Mago isn't good enough either so that could be a big blow. I'm hoping Mata'utia is okay. Didn't see a replay but at the time it looked like he burst out of the line and went head first into the hip of Havard. The worst collision I've seen in a long time. All in all Good Friday lived up to the name. Great to see the Saints fans playing their part and creating a great atmosphere. After that effort we're going to get absolutely smashed by Wire next week but who cares

How is that second one even a penalty? He's hit the hip and thigh. There's no dangerous contact, no twisting or bending of the limbs. It's just a tackle at the hip. It's like he got penalised for the reaction.

I wasn't expecting that but I'm pleased that Wigan rose to the occasion. French and Smith were outstanding throughout that game and deserve the plaudits but you've got to credit the Wigan middles who played to their potential for probably the first time this season. Havard and Byrne really rose to the occasion, Smithies was excellent, even Ellis had a better game and Shorrocks getting plenty of time down the middle was a bonus as he's as important for what he does off the ball as what he does with it. That middle unit was really solid in attack and muscled up well in defence. When you give the middles who are playing well enough game time to have an impact it makes a difference. No pointless second spell for Cooper as far as I could tell. No wasting time with Singleton or Mago for the sake of a 5 prop rotation. Just pick players who make an impact. We did get some good fortune during that match and the scoreline flattered Wigan a little but despite the brilliance from French it was really the defence where we won that game. Ipape was taken care of and Asiata and Amone were limited in their effectiveness. We'd have kept them to nil if not for an unfortunate slip from Smith in the build up to Briscoe's try. Not to deny the obvious bad luck with O'Brien going off so early. No issues with Wardle getting sin binned. Saw the replays and in real time it's half a second late but when you get players suffering concussions as a result there's no point arguing he was committed. The speed of approach gave him no time to pull out and you have to protect the players. I also think the 18th man should be available to teams if they have a player leave the field due to concussion through foul play. It can be a big disadvantage and I think it definitely was for Leigh as Hardaker is a poor fullback these days. The reshuffle of the backline concerned me a bit but it actually worked out well. Miski was strong, Wardle had one of his better games. King was good on the wing (aside from the one blunder) and Pearce-Paul had his best game of the season with some impressive defence. Losing Field is going to be a big blow and we'll probably struggle in his absence. What I would say is that's not necessarily because we rely too much on Field. It's clear that at their best Field and French are among the best players in the league but we still compromise when one of them isn't at fullback. For all the good things Field did tonight he did a lot of bad things and a smart, composed halfback would have been just as effective but probably in a different way. Being down 3 options in the halves with Cust, Field and Hampshire out could test us because our biggest issue in previous games has been Smith having to so much by himself.

I think that's underestimating Wigan but sadly (for me) not by much. When talking about our threats this year French tends to be a threat at fullback but not when on the wing. If he's playing out wide it's not so much keeping him quiet as keeping the players on his inside quiet so he doesn't get the ball (a much easier task). It's Field or French (but rarely both), Farrell and Smith who are key to most of the good things we do and the players that have caused teams the most problems. I'm fairly sure Leigh will win this because it feels like it will mean more to them and more to Adrian Lam. Even if you don't consider that aspect I think there's a very good chance Leigh outplay us. Packs often dictate the outcome and Leigh have Amone, Asiata, O'Donnell and Ipape who are among the best performers in their respective positions so far this year. I've been hugely impressed by what I've seen from them. Even Mulhern seems to be looking decent at the moment. You look at the Wigan pack and what we've got to throw at Leigh and we've got Farrell who is below his best but still playing at a high level and then who else? Smithies and Havard are solid workhorse forwards but haven't quite pushed themselves into the bracket where they are game changers. Ellis is bang average every game. Singleton and Cooper have been poor and fairly ineffective. Liam Byrne yet to show any real form. KPP and Isa at right side second row seem to swap each time one has a disappointing game (which is frequently). Ipape vs Powell is a complete mismatch based on current form. Our best hope is that Brad O'Neill retains his place as he showed some promising signs against Salford and can actually trouble teams. Comparing the backline of Field; French, King, Wardle and Marshall against O'Brien, Briscoe, Hardaker, Leutele and Charnley I don't think there's much to choose. Field is nowhere near last years form but he's still a creative influence, but so is O'Brien. Briscoe and Hardaker are a solid and experienced pairing but it's the left edge of Leutele and Charnley that concerns me the most (alongside O'Donnell). It's one of the deadliest edge combinations in the league and it's worrying that because of Cust and KPP/Isa our right edge has been a defensive frailty this year. There could be big damage caused on that side. For Wigan French is obviously a threat but limited on the wing. Marshall is quality but like most wingers he needs the service to cause problems. King has been good for us and is like having an extra forward with his work rate but gets little service alongside French. Wardle hasn't really settled yet and that limits our effectiveness on the left. Smith pulls the strings in the halves but has been limited in what he can do with Cust's poor form and that's costing us big time. A lot of Wigan fans want Field in the halves and I'd generally be in favour but the issue is who plays where to accommodate. KPP and King are centre/wing when we switch mid-game but it's moving players out of position. Miski could come onto the wing but completely changing personnel on our right edge against such a threatening left edge could do more harm than good. I think Matt Peet would be more cautious so I wouldn't be surprised if there were no changes to the team for this week. Lam is obviously a huge threat in the halves for Leigh and Reynolds is solid and underrated. There's definitely more quality within the Wigan side than we've shown so far this year but I have my doubts that we'd be able to get more than a couple of our forwards putting in strong performances whereas Leigh's pack men have been performing consistently well. If Wigan put in a decent performance I think it could be a close and exciting game. If it's more of the same from Wigan I think Leigh win by a couple of scores but looking capable of more.

It's a reasonable point, but penalties conceded doesn't necessarily correlate with the performance of a team. Toulouse were the least disciplined side last year, which would support that idea, but Saints were 3rd least and Catalans 4th. Wigan were the most disciplined side but 2nd most disciplined was Warrington. I think really the issue is fans of less successful teams in any sport love an excuse. Why accept your teams limitations when you can come up with an excuse. We also seem to love the underdog in this country and hate success so what better way to play into that narrative than believing the strongest teams are only there through an unfair advantage in games and the weaker teams are held back in games. If your team isn't winning much you'll remember the calls that went against you and the injustices. If your team is winning you'll remember winning.

There's no doubt that Salford were the better team for most of that game, but I always felt like Wigan just weren't playing with cohesion rather than lacking any quality, so when the tide turned late on we had enough to pinch it. French at fullback made us much more threatening and it's going to have to become plan A pretty soon as we can't afford to be ineffective for so much of a match. Field may not be quite as effective in the halves but the truth is he's not been as good so far this year anyway. French has always been the better player so if you want your best player in their best position then French would be fullback. Cust was disappointing. He's been so ineffective in pretty much every game this year and you've got to wonder how long he keeps his place when we have other options. It's a shame because when we played Salford in pre-season he was probably the best player on the field and I thought he might be able to have a big year for us but he's been poor. The front row still goes through matches without really doing anything particularly impressive. The Salford front row seemed the stronger of the but as far as forwards go I thought Farrell was quality, particularly towards the end of the game when his fitness levels make a huge difference. It's no coincidence we score tries following some really strong Farrell carries. Salford would have been a different beast with Ackers in the side though and that will give them plenty of confidence if he's in the side the next time we play them. They were noticeably lacking quality at 9 though and it made it easier to close down the halves.

I'm looking forward to a good game. Both teams can play some exciting rugby although Wigan haven't been as fluent this year. The weather report says a moderate breeze but the wind is pretty gusty so I wonder if we might see a bit of a duel between Harry Smith and Marc Sneyd to see who can cause the most chaos with towering kicks. If it's a tight game that would tip the balance in Salford's favour on goal kicks. Ackers will be a big loss for Salford. When we played in pre-season he was a real handful but the threat disappeared when he went off. It may give an opportunity to Amir Bourouh to impress against his former club. This is a game that Wigan should be winning if we've got Grand Final ambitions but Salford are a nightmare to play against and the less chance they seem to have the better they seem to play. Dupree and Sidlow seem to be pretty impressive in the pack whereas the Wigan front row has been largely unimpressive aside from Havard. Unenthusiastic is the word I've use to describe our front row in general this year and that's not what you want against Salford.

I think just playing regularly will do him good. I also prefer him to Smithies and have done for a while, I just think he's unlucky that Smithies had a good season last year and Shorrocks struggled to nail down a place (as young players often do in their second season). What counts in Smithies' favour is he's pretty good taking the ball into contact. It's an underrated part of his game and he's our 3rd best metre making forward. That's where Shorrocks isn't as effective because of his size. If we had a pack like Saints, Wire, Catalans etc I'd be wanting Shorrocks at 13 every game. Unfortunately our front row is so ineffective you lose a lot if you don't have Smithies at 13. It probably says more about our front row than either of the two players. I also think Smithies would get less criticism if he was a prop rather than wearing 13. His style is hard graft and last season his tackle success was the best in the league. His lack of ball playing or offloading is something he needs to work on, but I think if you stick him in the number 8 shirt nobody comments on that. Shorrocks though is just a pure ball playing 13 and that's what I like. Good at first receiver down the middle but can also drift wide as second receiver and let the halves hold up the middle players. He's got a good offload and he chucks himself around the field in defence. The only negative is his lack of size which the best ball playing forwards also tended to have. That's also why he's not as effective at second row because he can't make the metres most wide back rowers can. I think his loan deal was only 2 weeks and I think it's 50/50 whether it's extended or he gets recalled.