The Parksider

The RFL wouldn't fund you direct but may do via SKY money. That's a big decision that if it has to be made should not be made with any reference to the possible "reaction". The RFL are there to do the best for the game itself and the pro game retreating to the M62 probably isn't that.

Having been around RL for many years the game has always had low crowds below the top level. Many clubs remain break even on crowds in the hundreds. Paying players too much is the bigger problem than crowds. Clubs need to adjust their finances to their incomes, and play their rugby at a level they can afford. In time most NL clubs will be past the SL dream not because they are shut out, but because they can't afford it something the dreaming SL wannabees keep ignoring. When the realisation comes, perhaps led by Karl Harrison and Batley a new NL will emerge on sensible financing and home grown local players. You would be able to compete then and there would be something for the fans surely Keith??

It was Mr. Derwent that found a rule about being able to invite a european club directly into SL, and he quoted it direct on this forum. It was an excelent piece of work by him and something no journo has either picked up or checked. If a big investor wanted to start RL in a big stadia with all the criteria ticked the "winning an NL comp" would be a bar to that investor, never mind Toulouse. So that may be why it was slipped in because the RFL remain the bar to Toulouse having rejected them more than once.....

Heaven forbid those who are charged with leading a sport should get what they want! The sugar daddies may be fed up at three clubs and the grounds may not come off at two At worst there could be five SL clubs either skint or without a ground. Will SL improve next time on this? Will it become like the old first division full of half skint M62 clubs?? Or will it start turning into an anglo french competition? Fascinating stuff.

STOP THAT Rugby league debates are more than just stating facts to completely back up an argument.........

You said it yourself the performance box is ticked. But the box that you tick the most does not appear on the Franchise form. Mr. O'Connor and his millions. In the same way Samuels was dragged into SL to spend his, so will Mr. O'Connor. Beggar to Beggar "Hey Nigel, there's a millionaire at the door"..... "Don't just stand there Richard, invite him in and pour him a large drink"

The fact that Widnes have put a lot of effort into the academy is to be congratulated. The fact the academy are doing well is great, but it doesn't prove that Widnes should therefore get an SL licence. It may be Wakefield won't get an SL licence, yet their academy has done great too. The license system rightly requires that all SL clubs work hard to ensure that junior RL is promoted in their areas - along with RFL development officers, and that they take the best and develop them into professionals. So Widnes are simply ticking that box. Bomb Jack is crowing about the results because he's worried Widnes may not get a licence. Jack - top or bottom of the academy the box is ticked mate...... You have the ground and finances to see a full salary cap, rest easy....... The SL licence is not dependant on your academy sweeping all before them!

The club has the problem of trying to keep it's links with south wales whilst playing in north wales. It seems to be a PR excersise saying to fans - we still think about you, and saying to juniors - we are still your club for a pro-contract if you make it. The crowd will provide ammunition for those against expansion as usual. The key question is can a North wales SL outfit inspire a south wales junior RL without such fixtures being played away from Wrexham.....

You'd better read your history of RL, you will find such as Paris and Gateshead being parachuted straight into SL taking an NL clubs place quite a number of years ago, you will find that the top clubs were given millions whilst the NL clubs weren't many years ago, the whole process of privelige for the few started in 1996........ I thought someone would come along and try to unpick the simple fact that Superleague has polarised the game, but has attracted a nett increase in fans. Isn't it time to get off for the golf anyway??

1. I don't tire of Leeds, Wigan, Fartown, Wire, Hull and Saints, and in the future I feel that one side in your area will do great, and Salford will become a force again. Widnes will compete with O'connors money and hopefully in time the culture of RL will build in the south, France and wales and they'll have a monopoly of the best kids in their areas and eventually come good. Exciting times ahead. 2. "Unfair" means nothing, life and business is unfair, the NRL and the USA football leagues aren't doomed at all so stick to that nonsense if you like. As for Wakeys crowds history shows this city club has many more times the potential for big crowds than Fev. Not having a go but Fev have always struggled for crowds even when at the top. 3. Once the lower clubs stop pretending they are going for SL creating negativity and become positive like Batley, and once a decent comp is organised for them the NL crowds will grow back, not by a lot but they will improve.

In 2009 seven NL1 clubs who have had SL aspirations moved into the new NL season with a sense of being shut out by SL franchising with not a great deal of prospect of ever getting in again. They were Halifax, Barrow Leigh Fev, Whitehaven, Dewsbury and keighley. Those clubs averaged gates of 2645 in 1995 before Superleague. Shut out by Superleague today their current average gate is 1712 for 2009. A loss across the seven clubs of 6,531 spectators - you and Terry have a point to be fair. In contrast the seven clubs whom have been most priveliged by Superleague and Franchising protection are Leeds, Saints, Fartown, Wigan, Bradford, Wire and Hull. Fully protected by franchising their crowds have gone from an average of 7469 in 1995 to 11400 in 2009 an average increase of fans across the seven clubs of 27,517. These are the facts from the official stats as presented by the yearbooks, and as best presented in light of the debate's basis. Superleague franchising is unfair, but damn good business with a nett gain in tarditional M62 support of 21,000 fans - where they come from I don't know but the fan who went to his first game in Hull last night, his money is as good as the money I spent when I went all over with Hunslet over many years. We are owed nothing by the game guys, the game owes it to itself to grow and go forward.....

1. The RFL/SL do target support. Don't you realise that the RFL would like only one club in your area and that club would be charged with targetting support from all over the area, from Dewsbury to Knottingley and Kippax to Barnsley??? One dynamic club in your area would be attractive to a wide range of fans, three struggling parochial clubs are not. 2. Of that there is no doubt. That thousands upon thousand MORE have walked into the game is another blind spot you and Tro have in your view of things. You cannot please all of the people all of the time Terry, there is no all encompassing solution - either we move backwards and bring back the fans of yesterday, or move forwards and bring in the fans of tommorrow. Current RFL policies are doing the latter and doing it well. SL attendances up SEVERAL THOUSAND per match over 14 years. I keep mooting the kind of RL you may wish to see where two leagues of 12 clubs share SKY money at

No he's coming round to my way of thinking, and Terry should be too Fans come and fans go for many reasons and they do not do this all at once so I hope we are all agreed that the fans are an ever changing ever evolving group. I agree that we can all think of fans who have left the game - I had a work colleague who packed Batley in when SL came along because he hated the razamatazz Batley were aping from SL. That's one story. Every fan who comes and every fan who goes has their own story often unique as to why they packed in and as to why they were attracted to the game. My point was clumsy and Trojan was right to pick up on that, but I would say that of course there are fans of NL clubs who are now getting fed up of not seeing any chance of a place in the sun - even for a season, and are leaving watching their local club and going nowhere else. HOWEVER the other side of the coin is fans who now see RL in the form of SL as a professional game that appears on national TV news and is an exciting spectacle. I know many people here in North West Leeds who have no RL culture at all, but they have in recent years taken up season tickets and go as a family. In my little area I know three such families well and that's 10 season tickets to Leeds. Wether SL had come along or not the principle that the fans are ever changing cannot be argued But the principle that the advent of SL has attracted thousands and thousands more fans to the game as opposed to the numbers lost in NL due to a realisation their clubs won't go anywhere is a massive NETT GAIN is a sound one So Terry and Tro need to address that point and not ignore it. It's a shame when people pack in but that's their choice and as long as the nett gain is greater then I see no problem but........ I do think that the NL could become a fine competition and get fans back and pull new fans in themselves once it stops being full of SL wannabees, most of whom I suspect are run by people who know they can't afford to play in SL but feel they must chelp on to the fans about their "ambition". I think Mr. Johnson at Barrow is enjoying the club being a big fish in a small pond and I think Barrows 2,206 average attendance last year against their 928 average seven years ago flies right in the face of Terry and Tro's argument. I think Dewsbury's average of 1134 fans seven years ago after they had found out the club would never be in SL ever again against Dewsburys 1263 average last year - AN INCREASE!!! should also be addressed by Terry and Tro who frankly and with respect are arguing against both the reality and the facts...........

You've seen the light then? In the NL's supporters do not walk away from the game they go watch Superleague instead. Finally we have the tacit admission. Superleague does not lose the game fans, it gains the games fans.......... Alleluyah, Hosana etc etc ...... I hope Wakefield get their ground and Neil Fox leads the team out and kicks off the first match, and you hold the kicking tee for him.......

You are one funny guy.......

People are simply seeking entertainment in sport and there is little loyalty unless it suits people to pretend there is. Like your Mate who went to Saints and fancied being an avid Saints fan despite never having been near the town, and like Trojan who fell out with Wakey and now is an avid Fev fan because he felt like it.............

You are a daft devil, trying to tell me about the people who watch Bramley and Hunslet and Leeds. The fact is I have been one of them, have been amongst them for 40 years, and have known so many of them over the years. Stop making it up.

That's a very good post, and reflects the reality of the situation. Here In Leeds people have stopped watching Hunslet and Bramley, most watch Leeds, many out of town travel a distance to watch Leeds, and some Leeds people choose to go to Cas or Bradford. People travel, move and make choices because they can. Years ago travel was slow and expensive...times change. People are more enlightened - they see pro sport for what it is - as an entertainment not a tribal way of life. I have always spoken to people about why they support particular clubs, I know a couple of people who supported sheffield Wednesday but now go to United.

All businesses have rivals, the monopolies and mergers commission sees to that. NL clubs ask for volunteers because they can't afford to pay people to do the jobs. I know businesses where relatives come in to help the boss for no money - so what? Of course semi pro clubs are businesses - they have accounts, balance sheets, money in money out, pay wages and are limited liability and registered at company house. You make it all up......

I am fully with you in the idea that an option could be a fully pro second tier, and a decent P & R system. 12 clubs in two divisions all with

Likewise Hunslet and Leeds hated each other, but everyone in Leeds now goes to Headingley - three times SL champions. There was no merger but Leeds got all the fans anyway. Staying as you are is not always an option unless you like being small, as the Bradford crowds start to plummet and the stadium continues to rot.........

That's the nail on the head Mr. P. People often say the fans won't watch a merged club, not that there's any evidence of it and not that those who say it will pay any heed to a number of people on here who on a regular basis say "well if it happens I actually WILL watch a merged club". Fans will react various ways and come and go for various reasons. Take the professional clubs in Leeds. In my first ten years in Leeds watching RL I saw Hunslet at Wembley, Leeds at Wembley and Bramley lift the BBC Floodit trophy. In that time there were about 1,500 Bramley fans on a good day 2,000 Hunslet fans on a good day and 6,000 Leeds fans on a good day. Now the only good days are up at Headingley where the Rhinos draw a current average of 15,000 fans. Nobody has to merge at all, it is merely one option, but the other option clearly isn't to stay the same otherwise we may still have a competetive Bramley and Hunslet being taken some notice of in Leeds. We may have lost one and nearly lost another pro-club in Leeds but the game is drawing thousands more fans through the turnstyles, and feeding a lucrative TV contract accordingly. Same will go for anywhere else. Wigan are now averaging 14000 whilst Leigh had a crowd as low as 1400 last year. Some people with one eye may tell us the game is dying as a result of that Leigh crowd. On the contrary use two eyes and see how the game is watched by more people nowadays - just not in the same places. Leading onto an ambiguity Mr. P???? If you say one club could "go on to represent the region" in the Calder area, which in turn indicates it will have a wider fan base and all the best juniors, then why make the comment that "mergers aren't the right thing to do" Mergers were resisted most vehemently in the so called Calder area with protests at matches, and even books being produced to capitalise on the hoo-ha.. It will be interesting to see what the combined home gates are for Cas, Wakey and Fev in 2014 if a ground does not materialise????? Equally it would be interesting to project what the crowds and the team would be if only one of the three stayed in SL with a new ground.

I don't really know, but I do think that you cannot dismiss mergers as unworkable or "not in the culture" when there is no evidence to support that because none have been properly tried. I accept entirely that when stood on the terraces of the Jungle Sunday Cas's 6,000 fans and wakeys's 5,000 "hardcore" fans (not all of the 5K were there of course) if joined in matrimony may only turn out to produce anything between 2,000 fans or 8,000 fans - who knows exactly, but short term the likelihood would be lost fans. But that does not negate the idea of mergers at all. If HKR have 7,000 fans then the club may be financially unviable unless lot's of workplace and pavement accidents continue to be suffered and litigated through Mr. Hudgell. The whole purpose of any mergers "alienating hardcore fans" is based on the fact that those hardcore fans often do not produce enough income for a SL club to be viable without sugar daddy support. A restructuring of a club through merger is designed to attract wider support such that in time the merged club becomes a sustainable club. And that support needs building over time. Culture is an important thing. There's no real culture of RL in west London and so Quins have low crowds. Will the culture build and will Quins ever have crowds that can sustain their business. We don't know, but those against the London club will say that all the evidence is there already that people won't watch RL in London so kick them out - an easy if disingenuous argument. If culture is important it has to be allowed to grow. Similarly if there's no culture for watching a combined Hull/HKR now then a merged club won't pull 20K regularly.....But would it 20 years down the line? Culture is only a short term barrier. The Cas/Wakey/Fev thing is interesting - had a club being merged there and given a better name than proposed (maybe something with a culture heritage like a mining name would have done better) would that club now be able to draw the magic 10,000 sustainable fan level?? More importantly would they now have a stadium and be secure in SL? Would the old tripartite culture be slipping away?? Would the club be challenging for honours and would the new fanbase care about the past??? I think maybe so. Over many years I have watched the fans come and go and bottom line is if you have a financially unsustainable club because your fanbase or customer base is low then you lose money and eventually lose your standing in the league and the fans peel away anyway. "Hardcore" support in effect can only be counted in the hundreds. The fact seems to be fans love success and top level RL. That's the difference between 1000 hardcore HKR fans at a Chorley game against the 7,000 now watching the Australian version of HKR. They are a flakey bunch and if a merged club offered SL rugby and a good day out they will come, maybe not tommorrow but in time. But heed the dark dire warning that if a traditional club abandons it's fans then those fans will "walk away" and there'll be no fans? e.g. if the Hull clubs merged "west Hull would all turn to soccer" I suspect that the top level RL game itself is much a stronger draw than the tradition of any club by miles, and if it is not then RL is doomed anyway........

If I recall correctly Rod, when the SKY monies were up for grabs Mo Lindsay had an all inclusive approach including expansion and mooted that 23 clubs one way or another got a share of the SKY money to obtain some semblance of fairness. One way was was to grant membership of SL to a club, the other was to offer membership to merged clubs. Nobody chose to merge and so nine clubs effectively excluded themselves from the plan that was looking at a 14 club SL which we didn't get then and now have. I just wonder wether your best bet to achieve proper P & R (P & R between a pro and a semi pro league does not really work) and all inclusiveness without merger, is to petition the RFL and SKY (In a much more polite and positive manner than you suggested) to create 2 leagues of 12 clubs and give them

Whilst your looking for a sound scientific criteria I'll just go for Cas, as with a 39,000 population and hemmed in By Leeds, Wakey and Fev they have done well to have around 6,000 home fans.