Trojan

If the only reason I went to the Rugby was to be entertained I wouldn't have continued to go to POR for the last 15 years or so. I go because I'm committed to my team. If entertainment is the only criterion then I could go to Headingley just as easily. Trouble is I wouldn't be that bothered about the outcome.

And the answer is they won't be. At least not in enough numbers to make the clubs viable. Because fans develop a loyalty over the years. To the club, to your mates who you watch with. Break that link and - there's no reason to go any more. Because you don't have to.

It's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. You have to buy food, if Morrisons closes then you have to go to Asda. If Featherstone Rovers closes I can stop at home. Same goes for Sheffield fans too. Or find some other leisure activity. I'm not alone in feeling like this. Look at the posts on the Championship sites if you don't believe me.

As I've pointed out before, it's a leisure activity. It's not something you have to do. I count myself a Fev fan, but I don't go as often as I ought. If they're playing at a time that's not convenient for me I give it a miss. They're having their most successful season since 1983, but so what? They'll probably finish top of the Championship, but unless they win the playoffs it won't count for anything. And even if they do win it - there's no guarantee they'll get any reward. I'll probably make more effort with the playoff games. But my heart's not in like it used to be. If Fev ceased to exist I wouldn't go to Wakey, or Cas, or the Bulls, or Leeds. I might watch Shaw Cross on a Saturday afternoon and attend GF and the occasional test match. But TBH the ending of P&R has spoiled it a bit for me. As I posted somewhere else, the edge has gone.

I watched an advert for Sky this evening. Eric Cantona was flogging cricket, tennis (US Open) cricket, golf and soccer. No mention of RL. Perhaps if they included the game in their publicity they might get a larger audience.

Why would Leeds do that and lose the big derby match payday?

Plus of course BBC Breakfast are moving to Salford. Which should raise their profile considerably.

I went to a collectors fair at Pudsey this afternoon. There were quite a lot of old Rugby League programmes. Some from the fifties. Two that caught my eye were "Halifax Football Club" and "Wigan Football Club" . no mention or Rugby or League at all on the progammes' titles. I wonder how many other RL sides used the title "Football Club?" Hull FC goes without saying. In the sixties when my wife worked in Wakefield, she would be late home if Wakefield were playing mid-week in the the early evening. She would say "the traffic was bad because of the football match" When did we allow the term "football" to mean just soccer?

I suppose size for size Tuuta must have been the toughest of this era. But: Kevin Ward? Keith England? Chris Burton? Kelvin Skerrett? Lee Crooks? Andy Goodway? David Hobbs? I don't think any of them took a backward step. I could go further back to legendary back row forwards like Derek Turner and Johnny Whiteley.

Are the wheels on the wagon in Wrexham ATM?

But it does in sport. That's the whole point of "sport" the phrase "sporting chance" means fairness.

Without the fans, and the clubs those fans support there is no game at least at pro level. Without clubs to play there'd be no crowds for the likes of Leeds etc. I'm sure even you would get tired of pick any from Saints, Wire, Wigan, Hull every week Parky. Franchising is unfair and any competition that is unfair is unltimately doomed. As I said before Fev's crowds pre Wakey entering SL were greater than theirs. No doubt the same applies to other neighbouring non SL sides. SL was a snapshot of the League as it existed in 1995. With p&r there was some chance of changing that snapshot. Now it's frozen. As the sayng goes "no change - no chance" If you look at the posts on this board those in favour of franchsing are almost exclusively those who support the better off teams. Those who favour p&r are those who were excluded. Without p&r there is absolutely no chance of the lower rank clubs ever aspiring to SL status - and they will die. Thin end of the wedge Parky.

Can you prove that? Because I don't think it's so generally, perhaps in Leeds, but generally over the whole pro and semi pro League I reckon attendances are down. Not at Wigan, or Saints, not at Leeds or Hull, but in the rest of the League. If as you suggest Hull KR shut up shop they'll be down even more. The League cannot continue with only 4 or 5 teams Parky. Expansion is very difficult and with what's about to descend on the country will become almost impossible. Super League missed the boat in 1995, when there was a chance in South Wales, they missed the point in France by putting a team in Paris, now Union has got its act together I'd say any form of expansion will be nigh impossible. Once Jonny's drop kick went over in 2003 RL in the Uk was in trouble. IMO League is a better game to watch, but Union's attendances say that my opinion is a minority one. The best thing to do in the current economic storm is to batten down the hatches and try and preserve what we have. Franchising IMO jeopordises that option because it puts more clubs in danger of closing.

Old Faithful, We've just been hammered by Wigan Old Faithful, The score was a pretty biggun Now the roundup days are over I'll become a Kingston Rover Goodbye Old Faithful pal o' mine (sorry)

I'm sorry to seem thick Dave but I don't understand what you mean.

I certainly think that Oldham are a sleeping giant given the amount of talent the town has produced. Harris, Eastmond, Barrie Mac, Sinfield, the Sculthorpes are just a few recent names off the top of my head

No you've misunderstood me. Supporters do not walk away from clubs, they either grow too old to attend or they die - or both. The new supporters who should be replacing them gravitate to the SL clubs. There's no gain for the game overall, just a redistribution. Fev's crowds were larger than Wakey's in the last seaon Wakey were in the same division as Fev. Since then Fev's crowds have declined and Wakey's have improved. A redistribution Parky. Who knows, perhaps if Fev had won that night in Huddersfield, with a ground at least twice as good as Belle Vue they could have attracted even larger crowds to SL. The same goes for 'Fax now especially now they've got the Shay sorted. Pehaps the missing thousands from Odsal will start supporting their hometown club.

If they are I'll have to think up a new argument I still need to get him back re Beeston v Hunslet Fire Station

There are Saints fans in Wigan, (I know one) no doubt there are Wigan fans in St Helens - there are Wigan fans everywhere for God's sake -even in Cas. Wigan are RL's major brand, (a bit like Man U) Max Boyce's song about the Pontypool Front Row doesn't mention Widnes Saints Bradford, Hull or Leeds, it mentions Wigan. But for the most part in RL fans are parochial. Fev and Cas are only three miles apart, you could see Mount Pleasant from the old Crown Flatt. It doesn't make sense. But for those who support the sides it does. When I worked in Cas I used to buy my morning paper from a papershop next to the Fourways pub. He was a nice bloke, we always had a bit of chat about the Rugby at the weekend on Mondays and Fridays. But one night I went to Wheldon Road for a Cas/Fev game and happened to see him - his hatred of Fev for that ninety minutes for incandescent. That's one of the reasons people keep going.

It's never the same people Parky. I've been watching Fev for thirty years (I supported Wakey - well Neil Fox) for twenty before that. But I'm 63 and sometime in the next few years I'll probably be too old to keep going. It'll be nearly forty years since Parkside closed. How many of those who attended regularly are still alive today, or able to attend a football match? Crowds are dynamic. If Fev had won in 1998, instead of Wakey, I've no doubt that they'd have at least similar sized crowds to those Wakey have today. Because it's 12 years since, there are probably kids from Sharlston, Crofton, Ackworth, who had Fev been in SL would have supported Fev - instead they go to Belle Vue to watch SL and who can blame them? There are people who were at Huddersfield that night supporting Fev who have either died or become too infirm to turn out any more. Crowds are dynamic. It's never the same people - week by week even.

It's not my experience of the way things are in West Yorkshire. Rivalry here, and in Hull and Wigan and St Helens (not large towns) is very real.

No it's not Parky it's wrong. As for Leeds, Bramley and Hunslet. For the most part it's not the same people who've stopped watching Hunslet/Bramley and started watching Leeds. It's a different generation. Bramley have never been particularly well supported, but Hunslet's diseappearance in the early seventies, plus the fact that Hunslet as a place where people live has effectively disappeared has contributed to their decline. The new young potential supporters of RL look around for team to support and what do they see. Bright shiney SL Leeds, playing at Headingley, on TV every week seemingly, and struggling Hunslet. It's not really surprising if they choose Leeds is it? What clubs like Hunslet need is a bit of help to raise their profile. But what do they get instead - franchising - calculated to keep them out of the limelight and perpetuate the vicious circle of decline.

How many businesses need their rivals to continue in existence.How many businesses get volunteers in the help run things? None. Pro sport in the uk certainly at SL level and below cannot be described as a business.

Nail on head. It's called tribalism. It doesn't make sense for there to be two premiership soccer teams in Liverpool whose grounds are not only within comfortable walking distance, but with sight of one another. But there they are. And they get good crowds week in week out. Sport is not a business. I don't know how you'd describe it. Businesses don't get volunteers in to help them run their operations - RL Clubs do. Businesses don't depend on their rivals' surivival for their own survival, RL Clubs do, businsess don't rely on amateur versions of themsleves to provide skilled workers. And as you say if businesses start producing poor quality product then some of those who buy that product will (eventually) go elsewhere. But most RL fans stick with their teams through thin and thinner.

What do you call geographically? Geographically, Ledston, Ledsham, Kippax, Allerton Bywater, and Methley are very adjacent to Cas. Some almost within walking distance of Cas town centre, but politically they are in Leeds. Standish is in Wigan, Coppull is in Lancashire. Does Copull count as Wigan's area?