Allan Marsden

You find the figures my friend. I only gave you the figures I had to hand. You seem to want to do the same you have been accusing me of though You cannot create something and call it a league then turn it into a cup knockout competition. Can you imagine the Premier League doing it. Exactly. Do not throw anything America my way. Any nation that calls a domestic competition the World Series is clearly retarded. Concceptually it is totally wrong. Morally it indefensible. You talk about a GF yet Wire v Saints attracted 14K, Wigan v Leeds will not be high, Hudds v Cats 6K? the Hull derby will be a full house I presume. So we are down to one rain sodden evening that the RFL spend 12 months selling tickets for whilst other fixtures attract nothing crowds. Heavens above. Maybe we should have more competition, maybe we should have relegation / promotion because I fail to see where SL / the RFL are delivering what they promised on the back of the packet. The standard in 2010 has been poor. Poorer than in previous seasons. As the salary cap cuts in we get poorer quality imports and despite being promised that franchising meant with no threat of relegation we would see youngster after youngster developed and clubs better off financially. I see neither. Bradford signing Sibbit says it all. Here is a club that needs to rebuild and they have already given up on youth development. Financially prosperous. Wakefield under threat of financial ruin, the future of Harlequins recently in doubt, still chirping about investment at Wrexham, several Championship clubs going under etc etc. I have no idea how old you are Maximus, by the name a teenager I presume but ASK older Widnes fans whether they preferred Widnes 1987-1990 to Widnes 2010 ? Everything in the past wasn't so bad and everything in the future is not automatically better unless you swallow the guff proliferated by the two SKY clowns.

Do you not like hard facts and figures. How about this 1 for a Widnes fan 1988/89 Sun 16 Apr Widnes 17323 17K watching Widnes at Widnes

It is actually IMO counter productive and fails to achieve the desired aim. Moreover, it is wrong. The team that finishes top of the League after playing each team home and away are the true and deserved champions. That is why it is called a League. That is why the winners are called champions / championship winners. A knockout competition is called a Cup and the winners are called Cup Winners. The desired aim? Apparently this marketing idea was supposed to sustain interest throughout the season and extend it culminating in much higher attendances. Does it do that? Possibly/probably interest. No in terms of attendances IMO. The system previously sustained interest by having relegation / promotion. Now if sustaining interest is the only criteria you would bring that back would you not. What interest have Quins, Bulls, Reds fans had. I recall a Cas / Wakey relegation dogfight attracting a huge attendance for those 2 teams. We have probably as many dead rubbers or more than we ever did. In a true Championship every win mattered. Teams played at their best week in week out. Now we have teams at the top virtually throwing fixtures away by resting umpteen players and shortchanging fans. In the past as the regular season reached its climax the quality of rugby got better and better and crowds went off the scale. Do crowds go off the scale in the play offs? No The GF gets a crowd but then in past RL was always able to get crowds for finals so that is nothing new. Indeed, some would argue the marketing for the GF has damaged the Challenge Cup. In the old system you had teams at the bottom fighting for their lives, teams mid table fighting for premiership places and top teams for the championships until the bitter end. 1989/90 Wigan last 3 fixtures Tue 10 Apr Leeds Home Won 16-12 24462 Fri 13 April St Helens Away Lost 10-35 17176 Mon 16 Apr Leigh Home Won 34-06 19641 1990/91 Wigan last 6 fixtures Mon 1 April Oldham Away Won 10-04 7399 Thu 4 April St Helens Home Won 28-14 17580 Sun 7 April Castleford Home Won 24-04 13948 Tue 9 April Widnes Home Won 26-06 29763 Thu 11 April Bradford Northern Home Draw 18-18 19112 Sat 13 April Leeds Away Won 20-08 15313 Here we are in 2010 and fans are saying 14K for Wire having just won the CC and Saints in their final games at KR is a good crowd Whatsmore some of those fictures were 2 or 3 in 7 days and far more walk up fans. So maybe we should stop swallowing rhwetoric and think for ourselves

The best prop in SL and props need to keep teams on their toes by mixing up taking the ball into contact and/or turning to pass and set up play. However, in some games I find Graham opts for the latter too much to the point his ability to take the ball into contact is lost. Last night showed just how gifted and clever he is taking the ball into contact for his try. A fantastic effort.

Simple League System and a separate old style Premiership competition. However, if we have to have this ludicrous marketing gimmick which does not work then 8 is far too many. 5 or 6 maximum.

The best thing that can happen for Leeds is torrential rain

I will put money on it Tim. Every dog has its day and Aug 1st was your teams. I support none of the teams but anybody can see Featherstone are by far the best team in the Championship.

There is no system, there are no goalposts. The RFL will choose whomever they want irrespective of any so called criteria. Thankfully Widnes will get the nod this time.

Good for the player but I am a tad puzzled. I always thought Saints loaned him out season long because they could not fit his salary under the cap. I masy be wrong but as soon as a player plays for a club, his whole salary goes on your cap?

Hard to pick a winner but whomever wins will lose v Featherston. Head and shoulders above the rest of the teams in the Championship.

What is boring about it and why are they superior. Any fool can chuck in statement. Justify / explain?

I am convinced that the secret in Wales is getting juniors playing both codes. Rugby in Wales has exactly the same standing that it has in Wigan. I have no doubt Welsh youngsters play with a rugby ball at breaks / dinners just as Wigan youngsters do. Elsewhere you see a football 99 times out of a 100. It is obvious the talent to play RL exists in Wales because the two youngsters at Wire, Evans? are 2 such examples. Some Welsh youngsters will be better suited to Union some to League and the extremely gifted can play either but somehow we need to organise the Academic sporting year so conflict is minimised. The two Welsh posters IMO emphasise the importance of development officers and the work they and volunteers do. Somebody previously mentioned Oldham. Oldham continues to produce talented RL players irrespective of the pro clubs fortunes. Cumbria is exactly the same. I don't think development needs a professional club. It helps but it is the people you never know exist or hear about that are vital. When RL was at its lowest ebb in Wigan in the late 70's and very early 80's it was still strong in some schools and amateur clubs like St Patricks and St Judes were the cornerstone then as they are today albeit the resurgence of Wigan at a pro level led to growth and clubs like St James, Shevington, Chorley, Leyland etc etc. The pro clubs in Wales. I have high hopes for Iestyn Harris developing the Wrexham club. Yes I know where he was brought up but Wales matters to him. For others, talk is cheap. Brian Noble went to Wrexham with no intention of staying hence he never signed a contract. He told a Wigan player at the announcement that he was going to Australia in 12 months time as a head coach (wrong) and he told that player weeks ago he would be leaving to become assistant coach at Penrith Panthers when the 2010 season ended. Try to marry reality with what he says in the press. Not the same are they. Yet, the RL old boys network will praise Noble as coach of the year, a modern day RL evangelist when the reality is Taffy Bloggs et al are the real heroes. They develop RL be it in Wales, Wigan, Leeds, London wherever. I would love to see a map of Wales with all the amateur clubs / schools playing RL and the numbers shown. I think you will find investment / the presence of a DO / a teacher / an individual correlate with growth. RL is it's own worst enemy. We introduced a salary cap system before addressing the player supply issue and cry now there are not enough players. We took the SKY money but what % were the clubs prepared to set aside for player development across the U.K. No vision and squabbling like vultures over every crumb of the SKY cake.

Maybe you should try to create a stage version first and that may lead to a television version. Worked for Up n Under.

Not doubting the honesty of the figures Dave. I would just love to see some 'meat' to them. Raw figures and some geography applied. Is the game growing participation wise in the South or in the North, where is it growing most whatever the region etc. Not sure if they still play Rl but a few years ago Brynteg (Spelling ?) I think Kevin Ellis worked there were reaching Champion Schools final. Not seen them mentioned for a year or two. How many school are playing RL in Wales. It is not a difficult transfer of skill for the students, maybe more for their teachers. The RFL should be telling us more about their development plan for Wales, what their development officer(s) is doing etc. I don't know and I don't think anybody else here does whether or not development officers are creating the growth or 2 Pro clubs?

Wigan sent their marketing team to the USA in the close season and linked up with baseball / american football clubs to see how they marketed events / clubs etc. Wigan took what they gleaned and applied it to Wigan RLFC. Mick Hogan did a superb job until he left for Sale but Simon Collinson has been fantastic for the club and still is. The RFL marketing has never been very good IMO since David Howes left and that is a long time ago.

One more nail in Wakeys franchise renewal bid. Widnes replace them. Happy days

I would not be singing from the roofs if that was the case. A 300% increase in clubs might actually equate to less players than a 10% increase elsewhere. The devil is in the detail. We certainly should not be using statistics like politicians. Realism and honesty are vital.

The Wigan Marketing Team have been outstanding. The RFL Marketing Team could / should learn from them. The Lanc teams figures are even more impressive when you consider there are more York clubs in SL than Lancs ones. The entry of Widnes at the expense of Wakefield in the next round of franchises will boost Lancastrian averages.

The figures must be to hand though Parksider. The RFL could put the figures together quite easily a put a few case studies together too and put them on their own website and on suitable Welsh sites to encourage more development.

Personally I do not understand people singling Lewis or anybody else out either negatively / favourably. I presume the RFL collectively deserve criticism / praise.

Well I do not meet any of your criteria. However, I can offer you an alternative; People who attack others in using the guise of negativity when they are asking more searching questions. These very same people sit back and prwetend everything is wonderful and let things happen to them, their sport, their country.

Of course it is true Dave but my point still stands and I like to see such headlines accompanies by quality data that Jo Public can look at and analyse at the very least on the RFL website and RL media. National media, fair enough. However, I want more substance because 300% means nothing without it. It is a poor lazy effort IMO and if that is decreed as complaining by you so be it but I like to be objective and want to know as much as I can. The mushroom treatment is the realm of politicians.

The RFL need to bring the Challenge Cup Final / competition forward to earlier in the season at the present time the gap is simply not big enough time wise between the two competitions and whilst it makes the double more possible it prevents teams from having two opportunities time wise during the season to have their best team fully fit and firing. SL? An 8 team play off in such a small league is a joke but equally the team that finishes first in the league are the TRUE and rightful league champions. The GF is nothing more than a marketing gimmick that in essence should still be called the Premiership. People praise the GF as an event and hold the attendance up but in the past we had far more events across a season and internationals held ay Wembley / Old Trafford with 50K crods to go with cup final events attendances. Now we concede defeat, market cack handedly and look for small venues to give the illusion of a crowd.

In search of the truth Dave just as we have a right for the truth from the greatest statistical spin masters that run our country at any time then we have the right to accurate, detailed data. The RFL or whomever can put a positive spin and leave it to fans to interpret the data which is impossible when they hide it. If an academic presented data the way it is presented to the public they would rightly get torn apart and deservedly so.

You will find most understand that and IMO Match officials are not supported and the game is let down by a weak post match disciplinary procedure. No prejudice or stupidit here love JK BTW There is a view that I think has some credence that because squads have no depth at the best of times that behind the scenes the word has been to go lightly with punishment so as to not weaken teams any more than they already are under a salary cap regime. Hence, no true backing for match officials.