145 replies to this topic

[Dave T]

no because in those cases it's all the RFL's fault anybody knows that.

Good point, my mistake!

[Steve Smith]

We have seen crowds not much larger in SL from 'heartland' clubs, and much lower in the lower divisions for hotbeds of the game.

Do we give up on these and cut them off?

What, by removing promotion and relegation?

[nec]

But the RFL said " There is supportive independent market research for Super League in South Wales " back in 2008.

Can you think of any significant events in Welsh rl since then?

[Dave T]

What, by removing promotion and relegation?

I expect Widnes to be promoted and at least 1 team to be relegated soon enough.

[Cofi]

when are folk going to wake up RL will never expand outside Yorkshire Lancashire and Cumbria folk in South Wales North Wales support RU always have always will out of 1495 how many were Cas fans

Gotta agree with all of that, especially the part I took the liberty to put in bold print.

I am sorry to say that regrettably I forecast that yet again this Welsh experiment would come to nothing. I have witnessed this happen so often that it is sickening to watch it all unfold and inevitably with the same old outcome eventually yet again.

Welsh= RU! RL: not wanted!!
The main reason behind that opinion is that RL is viewed as an ENGLISH version of the game of rugby and for that one aspect alone is regarded as alien.

I would love to be proven wrong but I fear that Wrexham will go the way that the other Welsh forays have and oblivion will once more occur, as sure as eggs is eggs!

and what is so wrong with that if folk don’t want to bloody watch it in Wales and the South why keep wasting money on the pipe dream that is expansion

I was once like others on this site I was excited when Fulham, Cardiff and Carlisle came into the league
I was in the 15,000 crowd that watched Fulham play Wakefield it was a great day out BUT it’s not worked and it won’t work I hope that one day I am proved wrong

Disheartening, discouraging, dismissive, disparaging, and utterly depressing.

[nec]

Disheartening, discouraging, dismissive, disparaging, and utterly depressing.

Just be grateful we're not all like that and most of us find these views even more depressing than you (oh, and avoid rlfans.com)

[The Parksider]

and what is so wrong with that if folk don’t want to bloody watch it in Wales and the South why keep wasting money on the pipe dream that is expansion

I was once like others on this site I was excited when Fulham, Cardiff and Carlisle came into the league
I was in the 15,000 crowd that watched Fulham play Wakefield it was a great day out BUT it’s not worked and it won’t work I hope that one day I am proved wrong

Fair play but you are judging the expansion on a few short years.

Quins and Crusaders set out only a few years ago to play Rugby league at Super league level and in turn attract kids to play the game so in a couple of generations time the clubs can start to get sides mainly composed of players from their regions and all the kids, and extended families who have got into the game with their kids can start to watch and build the crowds.

You really must appreciate that it will take many many years to build an RL culture in places like Wales and London, RU maintained a culture in the north after 1896 and when their game professionalised in the north in 1996 reaped the rewards of good crowds at Sale and Leeds RU.

Crusaders and Quins are many years behind that, two choices - carry on as best we can or stop trying to expand and shrink. We won't stay still......

[The Parksider]

We have seen crowds not much larger in SL from 'heartland' clubs, and much lower in the lower divisions for hotbeds of the game.

Do we give up on these and cut them off?

Spot on. That really is a spot on observation.

To get crowds of around 3,000 at expansion clubs in a few short years with all the difficulties, is very good yet we have seen plenty of northern RL clubs struggling to beat let alone match 3,000. Fartown. Salford and Wakey have had many appalling crowds, and Halifax, Workington, Oldham and leigh have also had crowds as poor in Superleague.

Indeed it's Ok bad mouthing Quins and Crusaders crowds obtained in foreign territories, but what excuse did the
SEVEN norther clubs have for their "poor" crowds in Superleague when they had a deep culture of playing and watching the games in their area.

Methinks the guy who started this thread just wanted to spark people calling for Quins and Crusaders out, after all he didn't have the courtesy to explain his point if he had one.

perhaps someone can explain why it's only expansion clubs who aren't excused "poor" crowds??

[Trojan]

To get crowds of around 3,000 at expansion clubs in a few short years with all the difficulties, is very good yet we have seen plenty of northern RL clubs struggling to beat let alone match 3,000. Fartown. Salford and Wakey have had many appalling crowds, and Halifax, Workington, Oldham and leigh have also had crowds as poor in Superleague.

Indeed it's Ok bad mouthing Quins and Crusaders
crowds??

Halifax, Workington, Leigh, and Oldham are no longer in SL Parky or hadn't you noticed? They were relegated. Paris went out of existence, because they (like Celtic Crusaders) were playing illegal players. Wakey are threatened with exclusion, despite having crowds 3,4,5 times as big as this one. As for Quins, in a week's time they (or their many other incarnations) will have been in existence for 30 years. Given that the game is only 115 years old I reckon that should be long enough to establish a core support of more than two men and a dog.

[Trojan]

when are folk going to wake up RL will never expand outside Yorkshire Lancashire and Cumbria folk in South Wales North Wales support RU always have always will out of 1495 how many were Cas fans

TBH I thought that if some of the Murdoch money in 1995 had been invested in a club in South Wales, if might have worked. Especially if instead of going back to Union, all the Welsh converts, Davies, Moriarty, Bateman, Gibbs, Young, Ellis, Devereux could have been persuaded to play - and transfer fees paid (with the Murdoch money) to their various clubs. Obviously the rest of the SL would have had to sacrifice some cash, but hey they're all in favour of expansion aren't they?

[petero]

The Welsh experiment or the Crusaders experiment? Go to http://www.walesrugbyleague.co.uk and read about the youngsters, the students etc. Also go to http://www.crusadersrfl.com and take a look at the academy and scholorship sections. All is building very nicely down here in Wales and the numbers playing rugby league increase all the time.

Take a look at my last sentence, I do mean what I say. In reply to Boyuk, there is not a trace of defeatist ###### about my attitude more along the line of being realistic.

I lived in Wales for a period in the 70s and please do not come with the ' there's no English bias in Wales bit', I won't elaborate apart from to say there most certainly is, and where R/L is concerned there also is a stong aspect of that attitude involved.

CC; I have no difficulty in appreciating what you say and sincerely hope it all comes good eventually, but over a long period I have witnessed various attempts at establishing R/L in Wales and though accepting that more now has been done away from the top tier of the game, I remain very sceptical on that aspect ever making a success of it there. Unfortunately if that part fails so does the game, at least in the media's eyes it does.

[The Parksider]

As for Quins, in a week's time they (or their many other incarnations) will have been in existence for 30 years.

usual transmitting and not receiving, again Quins started out only a few years ago to play in SL and build a culture of RL in London. They have rid of most of the Aussies, and have loads of kids playing, but you have turned your usual blind eye to the facts.

FACT Fev's average attendance 1995 before SL killed the club stone dead 3683

FACT Quins average attendance in Superleague last season 3436

Good god

Kick 'em both out

[Trojan]

usual transmitting and not receiving, again Quins started out only a few years ago to play in SL and build a culture of RL in London.

Funny that because I distinctly remember watching a London based RL side containing Shaun Edwards and Martin Offiah, beat Hull FC at the Stoop in July 1998. I may be getting old but I don't think my memory is that faulty. Come to think of it I seem to remember a London based RL team playing at Fulham in August 1980 against the newly relegated Wigan. But again I could be wrong.
"A rose by any other name" as Shakespeare has it.
Whatever, less than 1500 for a SL game is abysmal Parky.

Edited by Trojan, 26 July 2010 - 10:16 PM.

[Bomb Jack]

less than 1500 for a SL game is abysmal Parky.

Less than 2,500 is abysmal............

[Tex Evans Thigh]

ACT Fev's average attendance 1995 before SL killed the club stone dead 3683

FACT Quins average attendance in Superleague last season 3436

Just to play devils advocate here and im not saying fevs crowds were or are great, but havent SL increased crowds quite significantly so relatively that 200 additional average is higher than it seems. Possibly in todays terms with 15 years of SL would equate to at least 5000. Doesnt really prove anything but to show its not a relevant comparison.

[Matt J]

did they screw over their fans matt?.. i thought it was more a case of leighton samuel srewing them over.. he club would have stayed their if it was possible im sure..

Oh, well Samuel was responsible for the fans been screwed over anyway, it just wasn't a good idea for the Crusaders to return to the South when the Scorpions are the club for that area at the moment.

[Willie the Pimp]

We have seen crowds not much larger in SL from 'heartland' clubs, and much lower in the lower divisions for hotbeds of the game.

Do we give up on these and cut them off?

I thought we were already cut off?

[RP London]

Funny that because I distinctly remember watching a London based RL side containing Shaun Edwards and Martin Offiah, beat Hull FC at the Stoop in July 1998. I may be getting old but I don't think my memory is that faulty. Come to think of it I seem to remember a London based RL team playing at Fulham in August 1980 against the newly relegated Wigan. But again I could be wrong.
"A rose by any other name" as Shakespeare has it.
Whatever, less than 1500 for a SL game is abysmal Parky.

i think the point was this:

Although there has been a London presence for 30 years the fact that it has been moving around has caused some major issues.. when you have people talking about wakey and cas ground sharing and "i wont go becuase its 6 miles further" think how long that 6 miles can take and put that into the context of some of the moves across London from Fulham to Barnet to the Valley to the Stoop to Brentford and back to the stoop (order may be wrong and there may be more there).. your looking at hour long journeys being added if not more.. bascially the equivelant to eagles merging with huddersfield and expecting people to travel..

London is a strange place and people see more loyalty to their local area than to "london" and as such these moves have been alienating large numbers..

Not only that but th youth development policy on really got itself going in 2000ish and as such is only just starting to bear fruit..

I would expect that is what he meant and although i ca understand the annoyance ofthe "30 years they should have done better" set i dont agree and all the above especially the moving around needs to be taken into account... yes they cannot seem to get settled but they need to find somewhere also to take them in.. whether they can do or not and whether they can be given more time is a different argument but 30 years to build the crowd IMO is wrong and misleading.. 30 years to build the juniors even more so.

[Steve May]

Halifax, Workington, Leigh, and Oldham are no longer in SL Parky or hadn't you noticed? They were relegated. Paris went out of existence, because they (like Celtic Crusaders) were playing illegal players. Wakey are threatened with exclusion, despite having crowds 3,4,5 times as big as this one. As for Quins, in a week's time they (or their many other incarnations) will have been in existence for 30 years. Given that the game is only 115 years old I reckon that should be long enough to establish a core support of more than two men and a dog.

It's interesting that the Quins have been a part of the game for almost a quarter of the games existence. When you put it like that they don't sound like much of an expansion club any more.

Maybe we should start calling London a league heartland. With the number of players they have down there I think that would be a valid thing to do.

[Steve May]

i think the point was this:

Although there has been a London presence for 30 years the fact that it has been moving around has caused some major issues.. when you have people talking about wakey and cas ground sharing and "i wont go becuase its 6 miles further" think how long that 6 miles can take and put that into the context of some of the moves across London from Fulham to Barnet to the Valley to the Stoop to Brentford and back to the stoop (order may be wrong and there may be more there).. your looking at hour long journeys being added if not more.. bascially the equivelant to eagles merging with huddersfield and expecting people to travel..

London is a strange place and people see more loyalty to their local area than to "london" and as such these moves have been alienating large numbers..

Spot on.